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Marker Duke not for all skiers

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone,
Just wanted to share this with the community:
I have mounted some marker duke (size s) on a pair of Mantra and I had them removed after 3 sessisons....
The Dukes are awesome binding, really stiff, the catch on the boot is second to none, with no movements whatsoever, giving a fantastic control. However, if like me, you decide to mount these on a "small" ski (I am 170cm), the Duke will generate a huge amount of stiffness in your skis too. The overall length of the duke is pretty important so proportionally, it represents almost a quarter of your total ski length. The bar holding toe and heel clamps changes the ski architecture and they therefore become quite different. As a result, the skis don't flex like they should do...
OK, the rigidity provide additional stability on high speed runs and additional grip on icy areas. The problem is that your skis need to be pretty much driven like downhill skis and you need to physically be at 100% all the time. This is OK for a few runs but not for a whole day in the mountains. You easily get tiring "bounces" if you're not pushing on your skis constantly and this drains you down. So even though the Mantra are stiff skis and you need to be "on them" to exploit their full capacity, with a pair of dukes, you create a beast that could be hard to master.... And the fun comes on a second level, which is not the purpose...
So all I wanted to say is if you are a "light" format skier (under 75kg) these bindings will not suit you, even if you are a good skier. I don't know what to recommend at this stage but I think that tyrolia found a technical solution on these type of bindings....
post #2 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantramode View Post

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to share this with the community:
I have mounted some marker duke (size s) on a pair of Mantra and I had them removed after 3 sessisons....
The Dukes are awesome binding, really stiff, the catch on the boot is second to none, with no movements whatsoever, giving a fantastic control. However, if like me, you decide to mount these on a "small" ski (I am 170cm), the Duke will generate a huge amount of stiffness in your skis too. The overall length of the duke is pretty important so proportionally, it represents almost a quarter of your total ski length. The bar holding toe and heel clamps changes the ski architecture and they therefore become quite different. As a result, the skis don't flex like they should do...
OK, the rigidity provide additional stability on high speed runs and additional grip on icy areas. The problem is that your skis need to be pretty much driven like downhill skis and you need to physically be at 100% all the time. This is OK for a few runs but not for a whole day in the mountains. You easily get tiring "bounces" if you're not pushing on your skis constantly and this drains you down. So even though the Mantra are stiff skis and you need to be "on them" to exploit their full capacity, with a pair of dukes, you create a beast that could be hard to master.... And the fun comes on a second level, which is not the purpose...
So all I wanted to say is if you are a "light" format skier (under 75kg) these bindings will not suit you, even if you are a good skier. I don't know what to recommend at this stage but I think that tyrolia found a technical solution on these type of bindings....


have you ever skied a mantra with out a duke on it? 

 

post #3 of 21
post #4 of 21
Quote:


yours is way different. This guy is saying it make the ski to stiff. My thought is the mantra is to stiff for most people for its intended purpose. I feel I am pretty skier and HATED the non rockered ones and still dislike the newer rockered ones because they are simply to stiff for day in, day out usage skiing tight bumps line and trees aggresively they do rock at plowing crud over and maching groomers. 

 

The fact the OP says 'pushing" on his skis IMO means he doing some inefficient movement while skiing. We never push we only balance against force.  I feel like I can ski my skis with dukes/barons on them with a light touch but I also feel I can ski SL and GS skis with a light touch I hate muscling things personally. 

 

The Dukes are not an alpine binding! they are compromises to be made yes. but if your a strong skier you can make any compromises you need to ski on them anywhere. Since he is using metric I am 178cm and 74 kilo and have no issue due to dukes. my friend who is 61 kilo and 157cm has no issue on her skis either.  If she is able to ski them well anyone should be able to. 

 

 

post #5 of 21
The Duke doesn't stiffen your ski significantly, as the whole binding assembly is able to slide on the ski while the ski flexes. Any number of other bindings are stiffer than the Dukes are.
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 

Yes - as a matter of fact, I am skiing on Mantra since 2006, in every Possible condition so I know this ski inside out and this why i could compare back to back... 

post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
I use the Mantra on a daily basis and they perform in any given condition - pow, trees, ice, bumps. I agree with the fact that you can ski smooth any type of skis but sometimes you want to attack - use the max potential of your equipment and bring it to the limit... I really think Duke are awesome binding because of the control they give you and I was pissed off when I removed them but they are not suited for light weight skiers - as specified everywhere by the way. I am sure that if i had 180cm or + skis, I wouldn't have had the same prb. I think it's a ski length ratio issue, not a skiing technique issue.
post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 

True - thanks for pointing out - it does flex to a limited extent.

 

post #9 of 21

I haven't analyzed, it, but now that it is mentioned, the Duke does seem to "throw me off" a bit when I ski it on an alpine ski. I don't know if it is stand height, ramp angle, flex or what, but they have always felt funny. 

post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post

I haven't analyzed, it, but now that it is mentioned, the Duke does seem to "throw me off" a bit when I ski it on an alpine ski. I don't know if it is stand height, ramp angle, flex or what, but they have always felt funny. 


The toes are pretty high. I actually took mine off and had Whiteroom throw a 2mm shim under the heels. I personally think they ski great.

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post


The toes are pretty high. I actually took mine off and had Whiteroom throw a 2mm shim under the heels. I personally think they ski great.



In the other Duke thread, Skibootjedi, suggested that might be the OP's problem. 

 

http://www.skinet.com/skiing/blogs/2009/12/how-to-fit-your-bindings

 

I meet Chris in Snowbird a couple of years ago.  We spoke specifically about my Dukes and he has some interesting theories that probably have merit?

post #12 of 21

Interesting, I have never actually skied on Dukes but have a set on an extra  IQ plate for my Blizzard Ones.  I should try to do a back to back with the Tyrolias that are currently on them to see what the differences are

post #13 of 21

I ran the Duke on my Stockli Stormrider XXLs for a couple for years as a slack country rig.  Ended up using it mostly inbounds as my everyday ski with my alpine boots (Lange Comp 100)  rather than my AT boots (Garmont Adrenaline).  Stack height didn't worrie me at all, but the change in foward lean between the Comp 100s and  the Adrenalines certainly made a difference (not a flex issue, a question of feeling centred).  Not an issue now as I replaced the Dukes with a Vist Speedlock TT plate and Vist 614 bindings and that improved the ski's performance quite significantly; but that may be due to being able to fine tune the binding position on the ski.

post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

The toes are pretty high. I actually took mine off and had Whiteroom throw a 2mm shim under the heels. I personally think they ski great.


I have been contemplating doing the same thing.  How did you come up with 2mm?  Did you notice a significant positive change?

 

Thanks,

JF

 

 

post #15 of 21

Given the design of the Duke, I am pretty confused about how you could shim the heel without screwing things up. That heeltrack is reasonably finicky as is.

 

But then I do not understand why you'd want to add ramp angle to them...

 

Or am I just missing something.

post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post


I have been contemplating doing the same thing.  How did you come up with 2mm?  Did you notice a significant positive change?

 

Thanks,

JF


I bought them with Jester Demos on them and liked the way they skied. I wanted to be able to tour them, so I added the Duke and didn't like them anymore. I measured delta on both and found a 2mm difference, so I put a 2mm VIST shim under the heel track. It is still rock solid with the shim. Spin they had pretty much no ramp to begin with, if I recall, the toes were actually above the heels and they are now flat. Different ramp works for different people. I am sure there are people that prefer it as is. It skis better for me with the shim for sure.

 

edit: "them" = Volkl Katanas


Edited by epic - 3/15/12 at 6:28pm
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic


I bought them with Jester Demos on them and liked the way they skied. I wanted to be able to tour them, so I added the Duke and didn't like them anymore. I measured delta on both and found a 2mm difference, so I put a 2mm VIST shim under the heel track. It is still rock solid with the shim. Spin they had pretty much no ramp to begin with, if I recall, the toes were actually above the heels and they are now flat. Different ramp works for different people. I am sure there are people that prefer it as is. It skis better for me with the shim for sure.


Okay, thanks!

 

JF

 

post #18 of 21
Thread Starter 
Interesting stuff.
In any case, the height of the duke is not a problem - it does actually give you more angle and on a wide ski that helps. I think after all it's a question of taste. I personally like to feel my ski close to my boot when i am off piste... But additional height is better on harder runs as you can "climb" on the edge of the ski more efficiently.
I didn't notice the 2mm difference so thanks for pointing this out !
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Given the design of the Duke, I am pretty confused about how you could shim the heel without screwing things up. That heeltrack is reasonably finicky as is.

 

But then I do not understand why you'd want to add ramp angle to them...

 

Or am I just missing something.



I would guess it was to match the ramp angle on the other bindings he skis.  If you are flat on a boot board, but all of your bindings have 3mm of ramp difference between toe and heel, you can either add 3mm of a shim under the toe, or a 3mm gas pedal under the toe of the boot to get back to flat.  I have the same issue, it works well to go the boot lift route if you have the same bindings on every ski, but if something is different (like the Duke) you need to play with it to get balanced. I haven't tried shimming the Duke/Baron, so I can't speak from experience, but I woudn't be surprised if the ramp angle is throwing me off a bit. I can still ski my Barons, but definitely feel like I am trying to catch up to the ski vs. my regular bindings.

post #20 of 21

Does this help?

IMG_0001.jpg

IMG_0002.jpg

post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post



yours is way different. This guy is saying it make the ski to stiff. My thought is the mantra is to stiff for most people for its intended purpose. I feel I am pretty skier and HATED the non rockered ones and still dislike the newer rockered ones because they are simply to stiff for day in, day out usage skiing tight bumps line and trees aggresively they do rock at plowing crud over and maching groomers. 

 

The fact the OP says 'pushing" on his skis IMO means he doing some inefficient movement while skiing. We never push we only balance against force.  I feel like I can ski my skis with dukes/barons on them with a light touch but I also feel I can ski SL and GS skis with a light touch I hate muscling things personally. 

 

The Dukes are not an alpine binding! they are compromises to be made yes. but if your a strong skier you can make any compromises you need to ski on them anywhere. Since he is using metric I am 178cm and 74 kilo and have no issue due to dukes. my friend who is 61 kilo and 157cm has no issue on her skis either.  If she is able to ski them well anyone should be able to. 

 

 

 

So Dukes are what you are using out East when you need to skin? When you were out in LCC, did you tour there? If so what kind of set-up did you use?

 

I was looking into the Dukes as I really would like to have one set-up for resort and beginning to explore the touring world. Any recommendations or advice would be greatly appreciated.  

 

 

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