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How much brushing for warm snow conditions?

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

Hoping to get out tomorrow.  With temperatures in the 60's+ today, and similar tomorrow, I know I need to open up my structure.  But how much is enough?  I only have a brass brush and nylon.

post #2 of 14

You don't need to do extra brushing. You need structure. Either you have it, or you don't. If your bases are flat/smooth, brushing isn't going to make much difference. If you don't have a riller bar (Link to article on structure on Slidewright), you can make structure with sand paper in a pinch. Run it at 45 degrees one way, then 45 degrees the other way to make something of a cross-hatch pattern.

 

People here will get way more anal and detailed on this stuff than I ever would. and I'm sure this thread will head that way. But since you're going tomorrow, do what you can to create some structure that will break up the suction created by the wet snow / water. I presume since you're asking, that you've already waxed with some sort of soft, warm-snow wax. If you have some, you might bring along some rub-on wax to apply late morning / mid day. It only lasts a few runs, but you can re-apply.

 

Or catch a flight to Reno. Tahoe is about to go off. Biggest pow of the season expected for later this week.

post #3 of 14

Cheap easy way to open up the structure is with a steel brush,  Find a Grill Brush and use that. 

post #4 of 14

Wax with the softest wax you have, scrape well and brush with brass. Do not over-brush for wet snow, a rough (rather than polished) surface creates a secondary structure which will reduce water suction.

post #5 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanos K View Post

Do not over-brush for wet snow



BSmeter.gif

post #6 of 14

BS? Nope. In the old days, before structure was invented or understood, we used to use a paint brush and

brush on thick overlapping strokes of melted Toko silver wax. It worked. Nowdays if you don't have a deep structure for wet snow, your skis will suck slow. Please leave BS comments for those who really know and have more than just a little experience and time on skis.

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor D View Post



BSmeter.gif



 

post #7 of 14

To be fast during the winter, my race skis have a very fine, shallow structure and tend to become sluggish pretty quickly in very warm, wet conditions. I can put on the appropriate waxes, fluoros, additives and overlays to have them real fast for a few runs but that is an expensive proposition. I may need to race again so I don't personally want to scrape up my bases for  a day of training or free skiing. I know that I very much value the opinions of some of the real experts who share their knowledge on Epic and Thanos' suggestion certainly seems to have merit (at least as long as the structure left by a light brushing lasts with the kind of waxes you need in those conditions). Thanos is one of those legitimate experts on wax and ski preparation and I know Doctor D earns his livelihood in that business as well. I know that WC racers and techs, national teams, and Olympic medalists seek out Thanos' opinions. As a non-expert looking to increase my knowledge and understanding, I find technical discussions among experts on points of contention to be particularly informative. Throwing out a "BS" does not tend to advance a discussion but to either end it or to cause it to degrade.

post #8 of 14



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post

...In the old days, before structure was invented or understood, we used to use a paint brush and

brush on thick overlapping strokes of melted Toko silver wax. .... 


 

I remember that as well, the “silver tiger stripe”! Here is the story as to how I came to the information that limited brushing is best for very wet snow:  During the Garmisch WC in 1996, I was rooming with Edi Waldberger, the Rossi WC rep for AJ Kitt and (later) Daron.  Edi, an enigmatic and somewhat eccentric Swiss, was famous for his secretive ways, the private waxrooms, and his occasionally blistering fast skis. As an aside, I have always been amused by the secretive aura of the waxroom where mythical techs behind closed doors attempted to change P-tex and graphite to thunder and lightning; it’s all fairly simple science and a well-trained youngster can tune with the best of the legends. We were working with the Italians at the time and Werner Perathoner had his best career result with a SG win, so Edi was curious as to what we were using.  I like Edi and I usually share information, but I thought it would be amusing to give him a taste of his own tight-lipped behavior. Maybe it was the foehn, the warm dry wind that hits that area and some claim causes mood swings and even psychotic episodes.  Anyway, over dinner with a bottle of wine, Edi, seemingly amused by my game, tried some quid pro quo: “The foehn is coming, (mentions a WC tech with a number of Olympic metals to his credit) will have slow skis tomorrow…” I looked at him puzzled and he continued “so what are you running?” I started laughing…“I left two bars on your nightstand before dinner”… They brought dessert and he changed the subject, then after a while “(mentions the other tech again) over-polishes with his rotobrushes, it’s not good to polish for wet snow…” I just shrugged but filed it for future reference.  Edi was right, the next day the skis he mentioned were slow! Two days later, determined to test Edi's statement, I detoured to nearby Seefeld where our xc rep was glide testing on the foehn-warmed snow with two national teams. We scraped and brushed a pair lightly and glide tested them, polished them well with a rotobrush and water and glide tested again; they were slower! Brushed with a brass brush to remove the smooth finish and got some of the speed back, polished again and lost the speed. Over the years we have run similar tests with the expected results. BTW, the opposite is true for very cold snow, a well-polished base is faster.


 

 

post #9 of 14


You're right but I literally posted an explanation and provided a link on the same topic shortly before this in a different thread.  In response to Racer, OK I'll change my comment to, you don't have to brush if you plan to time travel back to the days before modern skis.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

To be fast during the winter, my race skis have a very fine, shallow structure and tend to become sluggish pretty quickly in very warm, wet conditions. I can put on the appropriate waxes, fluoros, additives and overlays to have them real fast for a few runs but that is an expensive proposition. I may need to race again so I don't personally want to scrape up my bases for  a day of training or free skiing. I know that I very much value the opinions of some of the real experts who share their knowledge on Epic and Thanos' suggestion certainly seems to have merit (at least as long as the structure left by a light brushing lasts with the kind of waxes you need in those conditions). Thanos is one of those legitimate experts on wax and ski preparation and I know Doctor D earns his livelihood in that business as well. I know that WC racers and techs, national teams, and Olympic medalists seek out Thanos' opinions. As a non-expert looking to increase my knowledge and understanding, I find technical discussions among experts on points of contention to be particularly informative. Throwing out a "BS" does not tend to advance a discussion but to either end it or to cause it to degrade.



 

post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 

So since this thread is still going.  What's the better tool for skiing SLUSH (tomorrow).  78mm ski or 108mm?

post #11 of 14

Yea, every time you post something you dig yourself a bigger hole. You're saying a fine, cold snow structure, scraped and brushed thin is going to run fast on very wet, warm snow conditions. Yep, you know so much and have the experience and time on snow. Yea.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor D View Post


You're right but I literally posted an explanation and provided a link on the same topic shortly before this in a different thread.  In response to Racer, OK I'll change my comment to, you don't have to brush if you plan to time travel back to the days before modern skis.
 



 



 

post #12 of 14

I never said those words.  Here is what I said:

 

-------------

To answer your cold structure question.... In the cold dry snow water is scarce but you need it for glide. In this case the fine grind is intended to retain the thin film of water (created from the friction of the ski melting the snow). This lets your wax repel the the water and increase glide.

Read this for details on base grind structure:
http://www.racewax.com/category/tuning-tips.ski-base-structure/
-----------

 

I spoke about cold structure & cold weather and how it has everything to do with the water/ski interface.  I never said anything about cold structure working in warm.  

 

I contend that one must brush well under all conditions and anyone that says anything to the contrary is living in the past.

 

It has nothing to do with experience or time on the snow.  Everything I'm stating is from a World Cup tuning workshop I took at Wintersteiger (the company that makes the stone grinding machines for ski shops).  I listened and learned from the experts and passed the information on to you.  I never said I was self-taught; I'm always open to learning.   

 

No holes dug.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post

Yea, every time you post something you dig yourself a bigger hole. You're saying a fine, cold snow structure, scraped and brushed thin is going to run fast on very wet, warm snow conditions. Yep, you know so much and have the experience and time on snow. Yea.
 



 



 

post #13 of 14

Oh, I must have misunderstood. You have stated...

 

"Scrape wax completely off all the time - no matter the conditions - for best and immediate performance.  You need to remove all the wax and let your base (stone-ground) structure do the work."

 

So, my understanding now is that a cold (stone-ground) structure scraped completely off will work in all conditions? This seems contrary to what Thanos K has stated.

 

Does Wintersteiger do workshops every year?

 

post #14 of 14

Where does it state that cold works in warm? Scrape/brush no matter what the conditions.  It is important for cold structure (in the cold) and important for warm structure (in the warm).  It doesn't say cold works well no matter cold or warm, it says brush - whatever structure you have - no matter what.  The different structures work well in their targeted conditions for different reasons, but no matter what, you still brush.  It's all explained in the link. 

 

They announce workshops every year to shop owners; there have been years that they were canceled due to low response.  The one I took was with Willi Wiltz, who was on tour for TOKO this last year.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post

Oh, I must have misunderstood. You have stated...

 

"Scrape wax completely off all the time - no matter the conditions - for best and immediate performance.  You need to remove all the wax and let your base (stone-ground) structure do the work."

 

So, my understanding now is that a cold (stone-ground) structure scraped completely off will work in all conditions? This seems contrary to what Thanos K has stated.

 

Does Wintersteiger do workshops every year?

 



 

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