The demise of Okemo

Skied Okemo in January and it was fine.

Also, when the weather doesn't cooperate I don't know how expensive it is to continue making snow - does it deeply cut into profits or do they risk operating at a loss? It must be frustrating to try and run a business that depends on the weather and have pretty much the exact opposite of what you need and what you should have. It's mid-March and the forecast for Warren, Vermont (Sugarbush / Mad River Glen) is temperatures in the seventies for the next 5 days - that's crazy. I can see 1 or 2 days, but to be in the seventies in the mountains in March for 5 consecutive days or more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac 

The word I get is that the previous owners sold the mountain three years ago, and now lease it back, and are forced to stick to a strict budget by the new ownership.

There's your problem.

I dont buy this rationale.  Typically in this type of transaction the seller/new lesee (current okemo operational mgmt/ex-owners) typically enter in the transaction to finance expansion of the existing business, purchase new equipment,  invest in new opportunities, pay down debt and improve the company's balance sheet, and garner some tax benefits.  CNL, the new owners, are a REIT and typically only care about getting paid in the form of rent, and in my experience, dont influence day to day operations.  

According to wiki, the Muellers (ex owners) sold Okemo, Crested Butte and Mount Sunapee to CNL for 130 million...how is it that Sunapee isnt experiencing the same issues then?  Also, CNL owns Loon, Bretton Woods, Stratton, Jiminy Peak, Sunday River, Sugarloaf in New England, and most these resorts have seen significant capital investment and improvements in recent years.  Did the Muellers get out completely and now Sunapee and Okemo are managed by two separate entities? Maybe this is the problem...

I can only conclude that either a) the old owners just cashed out and current mgmt doesn't care specifically about Okemo anymore, or b) are preparing to make some major investment in the mountain, and are working on their plans.  Hopefully its b, but it seems from what Mac says its a.

only time will tell i guess.

Our GM asked me to post a reply to your comments. ~jenn

Mac ~

I saw your comments and it prompted me to take a closer look at our snowmaking this year compared to recent years.

• The snowmaking guns ran about 5.5% less this year than the average. (due to temperatures)
• Total gallons of water pumped was about 10.5% less this year than average.
• The total gallons of diesel fuel used for the season was about a 12.1% increase over the 5-year average.
• Okemo saw a cost per gallon of fuel increase of 26.8% over the 5-year average in per gallon price.

We consistently blew snow through the end of February and planned to resurface as necessary in March. Our compressors were not sent back in January and we made snow on all but 5 of our trails.  All this said, Mother Nature definitely threw us some curve balls this season.

I respect your opinion, but wanted you to have the facts about our outputs.  If you are interested in more, please read my blog (okemo.blogspot.com) or follow me on twitter (@okemogm). 

Take care,

Bruce Schmidt

GM, Okemo

okemo.blogspot.com

@okemogm

I will agree with some of the OP's points, such as Stratton skied better than Okemo this year. but most of what he says is just not accurate and virtually everything is based on someone told me this, or someone told me that. People say a lot of things that are simply not true.

You said thin cover at Okemo last season? Really? this date last year we still had 3-4 feet at 1600FT
 

There are many factors at work here than greatly impact how one area skis versus another and those factors are magnified in a marginal snow year.

1) Okemo is east facing, Stratton is largely north facing, that's huge in a bad year

2) Stratton's base is appx 2000 feet, Okemo' is about 1200 feet. Big difference
3) Stratton's summit is almost 4000 feet, Okemo's is 3300 feet, big difference

4) Killington Basin's base elevation is 2600 summit 4100+ , how did the Skyeship area fare this year at about 1100 feet?

5) Okemo gets a lot less natural snow than Killington, we've had about 75" at 1600 feet this year and about 96 at 3300 feet

Elevation and mountain orientation make a big diff, Do you really think Killington could, in a normal year keep Superstar open til may if it wasn't North facing?

Okemo made a lot less snow this year than normal.. but they had so many nights where snowmaking was not possible.. throughout the year.
the big snows never came..  They most likely never even used up their snowmaking budget.. but I'm certain revenues were down. People didn't come in the numbers they normally do, no snow in NY or CT, people don't ski as often.. Businesses, and ski areas are businesses need to adjust.

The comments about the Mueller's being forced to adhere to a strict budget.. well basically, that's just hearsay, could it be true? maybe, but there's absolutely no evidence to support it..
2 of the last 3 winters have been sub par, but first check the weather records.. and then factor in elevation and the mountain's geo orientation and you'll get a more complete picture.

I live in Ludlow, but do not work for the mountain, and there are things I feel could have been done differently, but right now Killington isn't doing a whole lot better than Okemo during this heat wave. I ski every area in the region, and ski them every day.. and if people were blowing their skis out at Okemo I have no idea where they were skiing.. The woods and gladed trails were rough this year, so if someone skied those areas at Okemo this year, maybe they dinged their skis, other than that, don't believe everything you hear.

Mac, those numbers Bruce Schmidt provided are based on a 5 year average.  What those numbers should tell you besides the obvious is that not only were there fewer hours of snowmaking, & less water pumped, but the fact that more fuel was used should tell you that snow making when available was far more inefficient than in previous years.

November and December were abysmal for snowmaking.. The number of nights in December that never went below freezing was quite high.. Okemo could not even make enough snow to get open to the base area until December 10th, and even then it was very marginal. This was not due to any budgetary decision, it was strictly due to mother nature being a PITA this year.. Killington struggled big time too, even with their higher elevation, by December 5th they were still struggling to stay open down to 2600 feet.

The natural snow fall up until December 17 was 16 inches total, 12" on November 22nd which melted within a few days and 4 at the summit on December 8th, it also all melted.

The rest of the month delivered only a few more inches all of which melted.. Early January there was literally no natural snow in the woods. And while snow making temps were a bit better and we had a couple of cold nights.. even on nights where snow could be made, the temps were much warmer than in a normal year, hence less efficient snowmaking.

February had virtually no snow until the end of the month and temps again, were often marginal

This season was a mess from day one at virtually every major area south of the MRV, and it never really got a lot better.

You said people saw snowmaking hoses being rolled up in January. You know what they saw? They saw snowmaking crews moving snowmaking equipment from one part of the mountain to another. Yea, hoses were being dragged behind sleds.. but they weren't being put away. Again, people see stuff and then just assume something that is totally wrong and it gets passed around as fact.

There is no way, anyone did any damage to their skis at Okemo this year or any recent year unless they were in the woods. Outside of early December, open trails were wall to wall until the recent heat wave.

Another factor that can affect conditions greatly is the skier density. Okemo is the second busiest mountain in new England.. When you get 12,000 people on the mountain on a crowded weekend, it sure is going to get scraped down to bone really quickly, especially when the majority of those people stick to groomers all day.

You can go to any forum for any mountain and the griping is always the same unless we're having a great snow year. Everyone saying this mountain or that mountain is cutting back on this or that, snow making budgets are blown.. something has changed.. etc.. Sometimes all those things can be true. But generally, no they aren't.

I'm not defending management decisions or saying management at Okemo and other mountains don't screw up, they do.. I see things that I often think could have been done differently, but it's their jobs to make what they feel is the best decision and that is what I know most of these guys try and do... sometimes you just have to be realistic and look at the obvious, which this year, more than any in recent memory, is the weather and realize there is not any single decision any of the mountains in this region could have done differently that would have really altered the outcome.

If Okemo isn't doing it for you, come over to Magic.  You can ski with us, have a great time, and if you go back to Okemo you'll never again think of it as a place where you're likely to damage your skis.

Mac, I think one of the reasons for the differences in perception on this may have to do with how often and when you ski here. I have no idea how often or when you ski here, but I gather that it's more than a few days a year but certainly not daily..  but I do know that you'll more often hear complaints from people (and I'm not referring to you personally) who ski here occasionally than from people who ski here daily. I don't ski Okemo every day, but do ski somewhere every day, and have a really good comparison of how one area is skiing versus another.. a lot of times a mountain can ski great all week, with fewer skiers, and good weather, then you get a warmup on a Friday and the weekend crowds arrive and the mountain skis very differently. So I can understand how people perceive things differently and I've heard many of the same things you state from others, so what you state is certainly not a lone voice.. though I disagree with the perception.. 

As for hearing things from locals, they are often the biggest source of mis information.. Just 2 days ago, I was talking with another couple of locals who happen to work on the mountain, we were discussing the heat wave and what the plan was for surviving the week,. they both separately told me the plan was to take the pipe and terrain park down and use that snow to patch where needed. I thought the idea was kind of not all that doable when they told me but they both said they were certain that was the plan.. it just didn't happen.  So many things are said in bars and other places.. about mountain ops, and the bottom line is most of the people saying this stuff just don't have access to the info.

Considering the horrible season, I'd say Okemo was OK this year.. Stratton for much of the season had better conditions.. Killington had some good days, but was up and down like Okemo, My best days here this year were at Pico, not so much because the conditions were all that much better, but we got some snow, on some weekdays, and there was 100 people on the mountain.. yet Pico was the first to close and they are north facing.

I just think that people who ski a region or a specific mountain every day will often have a different perception than those who ski it somewhat less regularly. Perception is often more about timing than anything else. This year we'll be lucky if anyone in this region makes April 1.

Mac, I'm not sure what to say, I've skied 9 different pairs of skis at Okemo this year and have not dinged a single one and I skied everything that was open when it was open. I don't dispute what you say about the bases being thin, it's been a horrible winter. There has been some trail count padding going on but that comes from marketing, and there has been some issues there.. and they have been called out on it..

As for thin bases last year? I just don't agree.. we never even hit 30 degrees in January last year, and had consistent dry natural snow for that entire month... the natural snow trails were excellent for the entire month. This time last year the entire mountain was still 100% open and skiing well..

We're never going to have base depths that rival Stowe or Jay, or even Killington, we don't get the natural snow they do. This year, they've been thin in places at times. Bare? no.. They tried to get as much of the mountain open as they could.. they did spread the snowmaking around more, than in hindsight would have been optimal, but who would have thought in January we'd have no major snow storms.. Sometimes things don't work out the way you hoped but it doesn't mean the intent to make it as good as possible wasn't there.

Mac, the best way to get a response from the GM is in most cases go right to his blog and post a comment or a question, he does often respond.. not always right away.. but he does communicate with customers and generally, most people don't even know his blog exists so the comments and questions are few and far between. It is linked from their main site.

I don't think the lack of you getting a response on an issue like you had would be unique to Okemo. Personally I think they do as good a job as any other major area in this region, maybe better. Sometimes it's not the answer you want to hear, and sometimes it's marketing BS, but I think on average they do at least as good a job in the customer relations department as other major areas.

I wanted to expand on the discussion about the poor conditions you perceived, specifically as it relates to this year, and try and give you another way of looking at this other than to just put it down to a lack of commitment on managements part to provide the best quality product.

Saturday December 10th was the first day Okemo was open top to bottom, they had what was essentially 1 open run. World Cup. There had been a couple cooler nights for snowmaking, there was a dusting of new snow. I think Stratton was the only area south of Ludlow open. The pent up demand for skiing was quite large at that point.

Okemo had been blowing snow on WC for almost 3-4 weeks trying to get it, and keep it open. Until the 10th it was downloading every day, as WC was only open on the upper mountain.
Virtually every day, the temps that actually occurred both highs and nigh time lows, were higher than virtually all weather models, and public and private forecasters were predicting.

It's not that Okemo or any other mountain was blowing snow when they knew it was going to melt. The mets were having a very difficult time with the evolving weather pattern that was taking hold. I don't went to get into a discussion about weather forecasting but everyone was struggling trying to get the pattern right.

Saturday the 10th was a day of carnage..There were probably in excess of 1000 people on the mountain, on one trail. There were race kids from the south who would normally go to other mountains coming to Okemo because they were open, they weren't officially race training, but they were there and were flying down World Cup like it was their own private race trail.

There were tons of just regular weekend skiers looking to make a few turns, there were even a few crazy parents skiing with kids on leashes, it was nuts, you couldn't make a turn without almost being run over. Okemo had patrol everywhere on the trail trying to control things, and they did the best they could, but it was a mad house.

They took a lot of flack for what happened that day. The only thing they could have done to control it was limit ticket sales, but I don't know of a single mountain around here that would even consider doing that. But they had a very dangerous situation on the mountain that day. The number of sleds that came down was high and there were a lot of really upset people.
 

I am almost 100% certain that a decision was made that as soon as a good window of snowmaking presented itself, the goal had to be massive trail expansion to disperse skier traffic.
Considering that the weather up to that point had only allowed for modest bases on World Cup even though they had been blowing snow for 3-4 weeks tells you that they were working from a disadvantage from day 1.
 

Now this is literally 2 weeks before the Christmas madness begins where there will be 8000-12000 skiers daily on the mountain in a normal year. Ask yourself, would your goal be to build the bases on a few core trails and deal with the consequences of that many people on a few trails, or try and expand the terrain out across the mountain as much as is possible?

There was a safety consideration here. You may disagree with that decision, but the decision itself was not made based on any budget cuts or lack of commitment, it was made in the hope of trying to get the mountain to open enough to handle the sea of humanity that would descend on Ludlow within 2 weeks.

They did get some better snowmaking windows in those 2 weeks leading up to Christmas and they blew like hell on the mountain, they were able to get between 40-50 trails open for Christmas week which we all know is about 14-or 15 real trails, but they were able to spread out the skier traffic around the mountain.

Also keep in mind, that Okemo has a LOT more true ski in and ski out lodging than any other mountain around, and there is a commitment to many of those properties that the trails that serve those homes and condos have to be open by certain dates and those dates are always before the holidays.
 

No other mountain in the region has that issue to the extent Okemo does, so resources had to be used to get trails open to lodging properties that other mountains could use on what would be considered core trails. But they did actually get them open so guests could have ski and and ski out which is one of the things Okemo sells. Did Killington have the Sunrise condo trails open? Did Killington have the Skyeship base open? Skyeship has a similar elevation as the Okemo base. My point is, getting all this terrain open in a very short period with only average snowmaking conditions doesn't happen from a lack of commitment. It was really difficult to accomplish considering the very compressed time frame they were working with.

In January the same thing occurred.. Snowmaking temps were up and down, on January 4th there was still only 55 trails open, again maybe 15-20 real trails. They were still blowing snow on core trails, but there was also a lot of negative feedback from the customers about the lack of terrain open.. so they get it from both sides. People aren't coming because of lack of terrain, you only make money by getting skiers to visit, so what do you do? you have to make a decision, and they decided more trail expansion was needed. You also have to consider that at this time frame, virtually of the mets, both public and private were still calling for this big pattern flip with the weather. The cold was coming, the snow was coming. yet while at the same time, min and max temps daily were still coming in way above average and way above what was being predicted. The efficiency of the snow that was being made was often not good.

Come January most areas in this region feel pretty comfortable that mother nature is soon going to start augmenting the man made stuff with the expected natural snowfalls. You add one good major snow on top of what was on the slopes and for the most part, problem solved. But it never happened. The weather pattern never changed, We had so few nights even below 20 degres this winter that it felt like winter in the mid atlantic. it just never got cold.

So yes, bases probably were a lot thinner this year than they would be in a good year, but that doesn't automatically mean the reason for this is a lack of commitment by management to build bases or deliver a good product.

It's funny you mention Killington as a comparison of a mountain that did things right and blew copious amounts of snow, you're right they did, but, go over to the K Zone forum and see what some of the locals are saying, they are bashing POWDR corp big time for their lack of commitment to snowmaking this year.. it's the same story everywhere. It's all perception and there is always a bogeyman. Manangement of any ski area are always easy targets when things go wrong, and sometimes rightfully so.. but more often than not, the truth is far more complex.

 

Mac, I respect your opinion though I strongly disagree with it. But I think one thing you said in your last post pretty much sums up my case..You started a thread called the 'Demise of Okemo'  a week ago, then state you haven't even been here this year.

You also validate what I said about the perception an occasional skier has about conditions versus the perception of someone who skis the region every day. 

Your points about packages may be valid, Okemo had a new director or marketing this year, some things on that side of the biz were bound to change, but there was some serious - serious discounting going on really early this year so there were plenty of deals to be had.
 

does anyone actually know what organization is managing okemo since the muellers sold? same/different than ex - meuller owned sunapee?

what are they doing with all the cash from the sale/leaseback? clearly not going into more efficient snowmaking capabilities (from what the GM said)...whats going on? anyone?

back to my original point, how is it that okemo is not investing whereas most of the other CNL properties in new england have seen significant capital investment recently?

Went to Okemo yesterday and I was disappointed that they still didnt have a half pipe set up. They have had plenty of snow making days to do this. Same goes for Killington which havent set up the half pipe either.

Forgot about this thread until I saw it while searching for something else.

Skied Okemo for two days over the New Year's break when Magic was having lift issues and it was FANTASTIC. In fact, the worst run (top of Limelight to top of Rolling Thunder...all rocks and scraped off)....led to two of the best ever (I guess no one wanted to ruin their skis...too bad for them): the bottom of Rolling Thunder and White Lightening were filled with deep, soft, fluffy snow and soft bumps...truely fantastic.

Despite dire predictions for "crowds as far as eye the can see"...I never waited more that 10min for any line. On the second day, spent most of my time over at the Southface Quad and it was nearly ski up to lift and get on every time (never more than 2 groups in front of us)...and this was 12/31.

Okemo seemed to be a nice compromise (crowd and attitude wise (not price wise)) between the LARGE K-ton/Stratton and the smaller Bromley/Magic type places. Maybe I just hit it on two good days, but I really enjoyed Okemo alot.

-Smarty

I had a good experience in Jan at Okemo this year, for as much flack as it gets after New England had rain and a big warmup they consistently had the most open terrain and acres of any resort in Vermont even the almighty K went down to 40 trails open that week 40...
 

a