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Why do new race-stock GS skis feel "hooky" in the tips? - Page 3  

post #61 of 120

Railed skis are hard to get off the edge once the edge angle is set. They take more effort to get off that edge as they want to track to the angle the skis are set on. Tune them again they will ski better. Skis hooking up is what you want. The goal is for edge hold so the ski will not slide past the point where the skier wants the ski not to turn.... Slide, Pivot or pivot, slide is not using the whole ski tip to tail. Most skiers do not like the ski to hook nor do the ski shops tune them so they will.

 

Personally when making short radius turns you want the skis to hook. Tune base .05 edge 93 degrees.

 

post #62 of 120

VS the cheater ski is less likely to do it as it not as torsionally stiff (more forgiving)  as an example I'm going to quote from the attached link

 

http://www.sierradescents.com/reviews/skis/dynastar/course-ti.html

 

I would describe the quickness of the Course Ti as somewhat akin to clicking your brain directly into the ski's bindings—you think it, the ski does it. That's not to say the Course Ti is for everyone. The Course Ti is an expert and elite-level ski, one notch below Dynastar's World Cup race stock, designed primarily to satisfy the hard snow, need-for-speed crowd (ie, former racers).

A ride this active can easily going to overwhelm lesser skiers. That said, Dynastar has taken care to ensure that the Speed-series skis are user-friendly for civilian-level racers, tweaking those merciless world cup skis just enough to keep the best qualities of the racing stock while infusing the entire line with fun.

 

This is based on the cheater ski.

 

Below is the same WC ski

 

http://www.sierradescents.com/reviews/skis/dynastar/course-wc.html

 

Naturally, with grip that tenacious, you need to be especially attentive to the turn's initiation phase. You also need to mind how you shift from uphill to downhill edge. A mindless roll of the ankles won't cut it here: you may find your upper and lower body abruptly headed in different directions. What ever kind of turn you make with these, you will be working for it all the way.

 

Sorry for using Dyanstar as the example as it the ski I currently know best, and I haven't skied the others to fairly comment.

 

 

 

 

post #63 of 120
Thread Starter 

cvj, thanks for posting the video, but I don't think that has much to do with what I'm trying to accomplish with my GS skis.  And that isn't what I was referring to when I said "short radius" carve.

post #64 of 120
Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj View Post

 

Skis hooking up is what you want. 

[snip]

Most skiers do not like the ski to hook nor do the ski shops tune them so they will.

[snip]

Personally when making short radius turns you want the skis to hook. Tune base .05 edge 93 degrees.

 

Yes, yes, and yes! cvj has nailed this. Especially #2. Linking this back to what a couple of other posters have said, it's like debugging: Even if you're going to do your own every-day minor tuning, you still have to start from a known-good state. In this case, that means angles set with a solid tune done by a good shop that has experience tuning race skis. Every shop that's been in business for a while learns - apparently, based on the feedback I invariably get at shops who don't know me, when I insist on "no detune" - that 95% of customers bitch when the tips and tail bite the way they're designed to. Because of this, even with a good shop you will still have to have them write on the ticket that you want your 0.5 / 3 degree angles with no detune. Even if the guy who takes your order is 100% on board with what you want, he may not be the one actually to perform the tune, and the jamoke who gets the ticket is guaranteed to detune tips and tails if it's not written down.

 

Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread, but, as others have noted, video really is key here if you want the best help. Do you have any to post? Perhaps it will help give you courage to post your skiing on line if you realize  that no matter how good your skiing is, a bunch of people on this board are better than you, and someone will surely find something snarky to say, even if it's unintentional. Therefore you might as well let go of the fear that everyone will realize you're not as perfect as you might hope, because, this place being what it is, they already realize that, even without having seen you ski. So you have nothing to lose. Once you get past that hurdle, then you open yourself up to really learning something from what the resident experts have to say. Again, apologies if I missed it earlier.

 

Have fun!

post #65 of 120

Sorry to take so long to respond VS. The under 5mph turns are going to make it hard to stay parallel and it's nothing to sweat. BTW, "carving" a short radius turn on a true GS race board and doing so at that speed seems like an odd combination of objectives. In reality it's very likely you are doing a blended turn anyway. Assuming this is more accurately describing the actual turns, the wedge is almost inevitable. So get the skis tuned but tune for racing not blended turns.

 

The corrective advice (to eliminate that pesky wedge) is to pay attention to what the inside ski is doing and to exactly match that with the outside ski. It may also help to think about the release we discussed a while back. BTW, the "moving the fridge" move we discussed elsewhere actually is designed to produce a cleaner release since before the core and the feet can actually drive that fridge down the hill, the old turn (especially the edge of the old outside ski) has to be released. So it's not surprising to read about some unequal (inside / outside ski) turning issues, I suspect they are present everywhere but more noticable at very low speeds. So those two issues (inevitable Wedge Christies) and the previous technical issues we dealt with elsewhere are IMO more than likely the causes of the slight wedge. Eliminating that wedge will improve your overall ability to release and re-engage the skis simultaneously (timing) and it will help you develop a heightened awareness of what the inside and outside skis are doing but as I said before, don't sweat it too much. Ski well VS,

JASP

 

 

post #66 of 120

Occasionally true. , but not Fischer,  Atomic or Stockli.

 

Only untuned skis I have seen where Rossis and that would lead  me to believe that Dynastar are too.

 

Fischer and Atomic both come with excellent 1/3 factory tunes.


 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

Race Stock skis come with NO FACTORY TUNE. You are supposed to have your own angles set BEFORE you ski them. This is why consumers buying race room gear is a f*'ng joke.



 

post #67 of 120


Duplicate

post #68 of 120

Atomicman,

 

My 2010 Dynastars came with the factory tune of 1/3, if you read their race lit. they spec it.  I checked mine (very carefully with machining tools) to see if I had to do anything before going skiing (old habits die hard wink.gif).  Mine are race stock as they are laser cut FIS, R engraved and matched FIS numbered (just behind the race plate, both skis)   Can't comment on Rossis. I've seen the newer Dynastars (same markings) however have not had a chance to measure any.

 

BTW like your signature.

 

 

post #69 of 120

Yeah, my experience has been all the race stock skis come finished. At least the ones we can easily buy.


 

I did know a racer thoguh that got Rossis and they came totally untuned. Only ones I have ever seen. Even all of Atomics Speed skis come finshed 1/3!

 

The signature, thanks, unfortunate, but true!biggrin.gif

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Atomicman,

 

My 2010 Dynastars came with the factory tune of 1/3, if you read their race lit. they spec it.  I checked mine (very carefully with machining tools) to see if I had to do anything before going skiing (old habits die hard wink.gif).  Mine are race stock as they are laser cut FIS, R engraved and matched FIS numbered (just behind the race plate, both skis)   Can't comment on Rossis. I've seen the newer Dynastars (same markings) however have not had a chance to measure any.

 

BTW like your signature.

 

 



 

post #70 of 120

VS have a look at these videos i think you'll find them very useful 

post #71 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Yeah, my experience has been all the race stock skis come finished. At least the ones we can easily buy.


 

I did know a racer thoguh that got Rossis and they came totally untuned. Only ones I have ever seen. Even all of Atomics Speed skis come finshed 1/3!

 

The signature, thanks, unfortunate, but true!biggrin.gif



 



I think the most manufacturers do an initial setup is to ensure the ski has the correct cut for FIS approval and marking.  I'm ony guessing on this, but I read somewhere that excessive tuning can take the ski out of FIS spec.

 

BTW Jzamp, the two shops mentioned are located in Oakville, ON Canada, one is Brick and Mortar the other is E-biz. The e-biz (ebay primarily) site has good deals online. I've personally purchased from both. Very good demo.

 

post #72 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Occasionally true. , but not Fischer,  Atomic or Stockli.

 

Only untuned skis I have seen where Rossis and that would lead  me to believe that Dynastar are too.

 

Fischer and Atomic both come with excellent 1/3 factory tunes.


 

 



 


Agreed, never had any issues with Atomic or Fischer straight out of the box.  Fischer GS come at 0.7/3 though (better than 1/3 for me)

 

Have had both Salomon and Dynastar (DH)  race stock that came unfinished

 

post #73 of 120

i don't get what you mean by wedge, but if you mean your outside ski starts tracking outwards and you get inside, it can be fixed easily. you need to be tipping your skis up before you pressure them. if you do not tip them up enough you don't have a platform to be able to arc, which i believe will cause them to be "grippy".

 

im not sure if this is correct, but if you bought a race ski, wouldn't you want to get a race bevel? just seems to make sense. 

 

i know switching from slalom to gs (short to longer radius) this can happen.

 

i could be completely off because i only read the first post, and if so, disregard this entire post.

post #74 of 120
Thread Starter 

It recently came to my attention that the shovel's contact point is actually what "grips" the snow (with the tail) when the ski is up on edge, and allows the rest of the ski to bend and thus tighten the radius (in addition to holding the edge).

 

Therefore, my idea of detuning a 23 meter ski is stupid.  In order for me to work that ski the way it was meant to be worked, I need a sharp and grippy shovel.  What I was probably experiencing was a zero base bevel angle.

post #75 of 120


You're not understanding how a ski works.  Putting the ski on edge and bending the ski into reverse camber (pressure control) is what sets up the arc of the turn.  Edge angle and amount of pressure are the variables.  Everybody told you that big angles were a good thing, but nobody ever said why. The turn radius of a ski is not a gimme, you have to make it happen. My ski can be rated at 23 meters, but if I don't have big enough angles and sufficient pressure, 23M ain't gonna happen.  In LeMaster's latest book, he has an interesting chart where he shows the difference for the same ski in turn radius when the ski is 45 degrees on edge versus 60 degrees on edge. 

 

Edge angle and the amount of pressure are just what set up the arc of the turn. What makes the turn happen is pressure distribution. Everybody told you to press forward at the beginning of a turn, but nobody told you why. What you want to do is to have the arc follow the shape of the sidecut, starting with the front of the ski, running through the middle, and ending up on the tail.  That, you do with pressure distribution, which is why you start by bending the front of the ski.  Now take a look at a ski.  The sidecut I just talked about runs from the contact point with the snow up in front through the part on the tail where it's still curving in the same direction as the arc.  The tip itself and the last little bit of the tail are actually curving in the opposite direction of the arc you want to make.  That's why you want to dull the tip and tail, because they'll lead you in directions you don't want to go. 

 

A zero degree base bevel isn't necessarily a bad thing, although I'd say for most of us, a half to a full degree is the right answer.  I talked to some WC reps at Loveland a couple of years ago whose racers had their SL skis with a 4 degree base, 7 side bevel.  Why would they do that?  Well, those dudes can really get their feet out there (see the above discussion about big angles), and they don't want the edge to contact until the ski is way out there.  If, on the other hand, I'm not great at creating angles, maybe flat is okay for me.  If you don't know what's best for you, start with a half and see how that goes, and increase if you like.  It's easy to increase base bevel, it's a lot harder to take it away.

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

It recently came to my attention that the shovel's contact point is actually what "grips" the snow (with the tail) when the ski is up on edge, and allows the rest of the ski to bend and thus tighten the radius (in addition to holding the edge).

 

Therefore, my idea of detuning a 23 meter ski is stupid.  In order for me to work that ski the way it was meant to be worked, I need a sharp and grippy shovel.  What I was probably experiencing was a zero base bevel angle.



 

post #76 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

It recently came to my attention that the shovel's contact point is actually what "grips" the snow (with the tail) when the ski is up on edge, and allows the rest of the ski to bend and thus tighten the radius (in addition to holding the edge).

 

Therefore, my idea of detuning a 23 meter ski is stupid.  In order for me to work that ski the way it was meant to be worked, I need a sharp and grippy shovel.  What I was probably experiencing was a zero base bevel angl



nonono2.gif   Read and re-read Skiracer 55's post. It's clear you don't understand how the entire edge is working and is pressured differently at different points in the turn.  You need desperately to talk about the whole concept of 'pressure management'.  To follow up about the tuning angles, someone I respect a great deal says 1.5/2 for daily skiing in the realm of mere mortals. The 'magic' in high level skiing happens between 0 and 2 degrees when tilting the ski. Now zip it up, hike that 30 ft out of the woods, and get back on the hill.   I think the patroller was concerned more about your turns than what you were doing to the water shed. cool.gif

post #77 of 120
Thread Starter 

I'm agreeing with the people who told me NOT to DETUNE my skis.

 

 

I have a ski school App on my iPhone which explains how the ski turns, and it says that the ski bends against the resistance of the tip and tail.  If the tip is detuned, it is physically more difficult to bend the whole length of the ski, and there will be less edge contact.

 

 

So are you so hell-bent on disagreeing with me that you are saying I SHOULD DETUNE my skis?  And, if so, please corroborate your statement with some cogent information.

post #78 of 120
Thread Starter 

SR55, if any of the contact point is dulled, the type of turn you describe is physically compromised.  The tip needs a sharp edge to engage. 

post #79 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

I'm agreeing with the people who told me NOT to DETUNE my skis.

 

 

I have a ski school App on my iPhone which explains how the ski turns, and it says that the ski bends against the resistance of the tip and tail.  If the tip is detuned, it is physically more difficult to bend the whole length of the ski, and there will be less edge contact.

 

 

So are you so hell-bent on disagreeing with me that you are saying I SHOULD DETUNE my skis?  And, if so, please corroborate your statement with some cogent information.


I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do at all. That's your responsibility. I'm only saying you don't understand how skis work. Ski tune is a very personal preference often developed over years of experience and varies with the type of ski and where/what you're skiing. How I'd tune race skis is very different from how I'd tune the daily ride. They're different creatures. You said your skis felt hooky. There are many possible reasons for this that others have patiently elaborated on for you by others over the course of this thread. Could be the ski, could be the tune is different that what you usually ski, could be pilot error. For all mountain skiing on the daily driver, I detune a bit at the tip and tail. It isn't eastern ice, and I don't want the ski to feel 'hooky' at initiation as I'm skiing about 70% of the time off piste. I teach on the same ski, and like the 1.5/2 tune to make the ski work at low speed as well as allowing for some adjustment in the initiation/completion phase of the turn. Works for me, but you might not like it at all and that's OK!  Powder skis are 2/2 and everything that's in the tip and tail rocker of the ski is detuned. Race skis, I'd go 1 or 1.5 and 3 for this area of the country and probably would do little if any beyond just a small touch of detuning. If you really think that only the initial and final contact points of the length of the entire edge is what turns the ski, you don't understand at all what's happening under your feet. Most people don't and are perfectly happy. You're not. You're trying very hard to understand and improve, but you're hanging on long and hard to a lot of very questionable ideas and information. Ask JASP for help. You seem to have a good line of communication with him, and that in and of itself is very valuable given his knowledge and your desire to learn more. 

 

post #80 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do at all. That's your responsibility. I'm only saying you don't understand how skis work. Ski tune is a very personal preference often developed over years of experience and varies with the type of ski and where/what you're skiing. How I'd tune race skis is very different from how I'd tune the daily ride. They're different creatures. You said your skis felt hooky. There are many possible reasons for this that others have patiently elaborated on for you by others over the course of this thread. Could be the ski, could be the tune is different that what you usually ski, could be pilot error. For all mountain skiing on the daily driver, I detune a bit at the tip and tail. It isn't eastern ice, and I don't want the ski to feel 'hooky' at initiation as I'm skiing about 70% of the time off piste. I teach on the same ski, and like the 1.5/2 tune to make the ski work at low speed as well as allowing for some adjustment in the initiation/completion phase of the turn. Works for me, but you might not like it at all and that's OK!  Powder skis are 2/2 and everything that's in the tip and tail rocker of the ski is detuned. Race skis, I'd go 1 or 1.5 and 3 for this area of the country and probably would do little if any beyond just a small touch of detuning. If you really think that only the initial and final contact points of the length of the entire edge is what turns the ski, you don't understand at all what's happening under your feet. Most people don't and are perfectly happy. You're not. You're trying very hard to understand and improve, but you're hanging on long and hard to a lot of very questionable ideas and information. Ask JASP for help. You seem to have a good line of communication with him, and that in and of itself is very valuable given his knowledge and your desire to learn more. 

 

I WILL be so bold.biggrin.gif  If you want to carve your turns with nice clean lines, tune the razor sharp from tip to tail at 0.5 base 3 side.

If you want to slip moguls tune them 1 base 2 side.

 

If it doesn't work for you, learn how to ski.duck.gif
 

 

post #81 of 120


It's a terminology thing.  The right answer is "from the contact point with the snow" not "from the tip". The tip itself is up off the snow.  The sidecut of the ski is from the contact point to the point on the tail where the the sidecut is still in the arc.  The last few centimeters of the tail and the tip itself are curving in the opposite direction of the sidecut of the ski.  That's why, if the tip itself is sharp, you're going to end up railing for the woods.  That's why, if the last few centimeters of the tail is sharp, the ski will hang up at the end of the arc.

 

You can believe anything you want.  I've been carving turns for 50 years, tuning skis that long, and carving turns, all events in Masters racing for 25 years.  I know what works and what doesn't.  Do whatever you want and believe whatever you want...it's all same-same to me...

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I WILL be so bold.biggrin.gif  If you want to carve your turns with nice clean lines, tune the razor sharp from tip to tail at 0.5 base 3 side.

If you want to slip moguls tune them 1 base 2 side.

 

If it doesn't work for you, learn how to ski.duck.gif
 

 



 

post #82 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post


It's a terminology thing.  The right answer is "from the contact point with the snow" not "from the tip". The tip itself is up off the snow.  The sidecut of the ski is from the contact point to the point on the tail where the the sidecut is still in the arc.  The last few centimeters of the tail and the tip itself are curving in the opposite direction of the sidecut of the ski.  That's why, if the tip itself is sharp, you're going to end up railing for the woods.  That's why, if the last few centimeters of the tail is sharp, the ski will hang up at the end of the arc.

 

You can believe anything you want.  I've been carving turns for 50 years, tuning skis that long, and carving turns, all events in Masters racing for 25 years.  I know what works and what doesn't.  Do whatever you want and believe whatever you want...it's all same-same to me...

 


 



 


I guess it's ok to stop at the contact points. Personally, I find the narrowing of my skis past the contact points prevents me getting into problems with them, but if you don't want to keep them sharp a little past that point, you won't loose much; I can not remember ever using that last bit of edge in the tail where the skis begin to narrow and turn up, and I can only remember a few times over the decades where I used the edge in the front where the skis turn up and get narrow.

 

post #83 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I WILL be so bold.biggrin.gif  If you want to carve your turns with nice clean lines, tune the razor sharp from tip to tail at 0.5 base 3 side.

If you want to slip moguls tune them 1 base 2 side.

 

If it doesn't work for you, learn how to ski.duck.gif
 

 



Well said Ghost!  As to the exact angle, see what the manufacturers recommend for your ski as a start point.

 

To get my wife to edge properly, I razor sharpened her skis tip to tail.

 

First she fell because she hooked edges.

Then she learned to ski very neutral (ie flat and straight).

Finally, she tried to slit my throat (with the ski) when she found out what I did to the skisROTF.gif just kidding on the last part.

 

Seriously, most skis will hook edges if not skied neutral. Race skis are worse because they are torsionally very stiff (don't flex(forgive) to go neutral) compared to advanced level skis.  Sharp edges just give them more teeth to bit you with if you make a mistake (or have brain drain, I sure several of us can admit that we've been bitten, only after we've been plied by a few beers beercheer.gif).

 

It's not the skis its the skier. (Just to confirm Ghosts point)

 

 

 

 

post #84 of 120
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

 

 

It's not the skis its the skier. (Just to confirm Ghosts point)

 

 

 

 


Yeah, Didier Cuche had a ballin GS run at Schladming, didn't he?  Not the skis, just the skier, right?

 

post #85 of 120


0-0...Uh Oh!

 

crap i'm 3 pages behind....sorry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post


Volkl Racetiger GS, Ladies 180 cm.  The ski shop told me 0/0, and the guy sounded like he was sure.

 



 

post #86 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post


 


Yeah, Didier Cuche had a ballin GS run at Schladming, didn't he?  Not the skis, just the skier, right?

 


 

that's a joke right? 
right???
 

post #87 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post


 

that's a joke right? 
right???
 



got to be a joke

 

post #88 of 120
Thread Starter 

Yeah, what's a joke is that every thing is the "skier," and not "the skis."

 

Actually, the worse you are, the more important dialing in your equipment is, and it is important no matter who you are.

post #89 of 120

This is how racing should be done! With style and skill. You lose a lot of the thrill of skiing when you use plastic boots.

post #90 of 120

ummm noo... your equipment is less important when you're bad. Yes as you get better, skiing is easier and you will be better than most on any ski... but the right equipment still makes a huge difference.. put bode on some shitty twin tips with a poor tune, and he'd likely get beat by the top nastar racers...

 

 

VS you are the ultimate troller, u should be known as a GSA apprentice.

 

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