EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › How much base does stone grind remove?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

How much base does stone grind remove?

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
My three years old ski has accumulated quite a bit of dent and dings on base side of the edge, since I only sharpen the side I can't remove them. I'm thinking about doing a base grind to clear it up a little bit, would this be the right reason to or are there any other better ways to go?
post #2 of 26

I get 1 or 2 grinds on most of my skis each season.  I have yet to kill a ski off due to over grinding after many years (some of my skis have up to 10 grinds on them).  I really don't know how much material is removed, but as long as you're not trying to reset the base bevels every time I think a stone grind isn't as big of an issue as some skiers make it out to be.

post #3 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

My three years old ski has accumulated quite a bit of dent and dings on base side of the edge, since I only sharpen the side I can't remove them. I'm thinking about doing a base grind to clear it up a little bit, would this be the right reason to or are there any other better ways to go?


Yes, this is how you do it. As for how much base do you lose, you lose as much base as you need to get it flat, so depends on how deep the dings go. You only ned to take a few 1/100ths to put in a new structure.

post #4 of 26
Thread Starter 
Thanks. I obviously do not have the equipment to do it myself, is there any special instructions I need to tell the shop when taking the skis there? Never done it before so not sure what is involved.
post #5 of 26

Yes you can wear out the base if done often enough. I just had a pair of ski's I had to replace because the base was worn down to the core. The ski's were about 6 years old & had been ground many times during that time.

post #6 of 26

What you need to tell the shop is what you are looking for: side edge bevel, base bevel, and type of grind. If you don't know the bevels you like, 3 side and 1 base is popular with more advanced skiers, 2 side and 1 base is a typical recreational set. The type of grind is the pattern ground into the base. Different grind patterns are optimized for different conditions in terms of turniness (DH skis have a different grind than SL skis), and type of snow. Spring skiing grinds are much deeper to carry away more water, cold weather grinds are finer patterns and lighter in depth. There are hundreds of grind patterns. If this is the first grind in 3 years, then I presume you are looking for an all around grind. It is important to tell the shop that you are looking for a mid-winter or all around grind or this time of year you may get a spring grind which could be not ideal in Dec/Jan/Feb in Quebec.

 

The grind will expose new base material. It will improve your skis' performance if you give them lots of wax and brushing after the grind to saturate the base material with wax and to "break down" the hard edges of the new grind. You can find long detailed threads on the different ways to condition new (or newly ground) skis in terms of wax cycles. I'd recommend starting with some soft conditioning wax cycles.

post #7 of 26

If the spring grind has deeper channels to remove greater water, in cold icy weather, what would be the downside to performance as excess channel area would seem to be fine, versus excess water that can't fit in the channel, which would be the case of a fine cold weather grind in the spring? 

 

Not trying to hi-jack - just thinking about pattern choice.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

What you need to tell the shop is what you are looking for: side edge bevel, base bevel, and type of grind. If you don't know the bevels you like, 3 side and 1 base is popular with more advanced skiers, 2 side and 1 base is a typical recreational set. The type of grind is the pattern ground into the base. Different grind patterns are optimized for different conditions in terms of turniness (DH skis have a different grind than SL skis), and type of snow. Spring skiing grinds are much deeper to carry away more water, cold weather grinds are finer patterns and lighter in depth. There are hundreds of grind patterns. If this is the first grind in 3 years, then I presume you are looking for an all around grind. It is important to tell the shop that you are looking for a mid-winter or all around grind or this time of year you may get a spring grind which could be not ideal in Dec/Jan/Feb in Quebec.

 

The grind will expose new base material. It will improve your skis' performance if you give them lots of wax and brushing after the grind to saturate the base material with wax and to "break down" the hard edges of the new grind. You can find long detailed threads on the different ways to condition new (or newly ground) skis in terms of wax cycles. I'd recommend starting with some soft conditioning wax cycles.



 

post #8 of 26

I have a pair of mid fats that I use after the race season in March and April. I have a deep spring grind on them. My race skis have mid range (temperature) grinds as I only get them ground once a year and don't have the resources for lots of identical GS skis with different grinds. When I have used the the mid fats in cold (10F and below) dry weather, they are noticeably slower than my other skis and get less glide with similar waxes. I imagine (but don't know)  that the deeper grind is creating more fiction and generating more static electricity that hurts the glide even when hard waxes with flurographite and/or moly additives are used. In addition to the cold weather glide, according to what I know about structure theory, a coarse grind is more resistant to turning and wants to track straighter. On the other hand, they are my best performing skis in wet melty slushy spring conditions. It isn't that they are unusable, just not optimal in cold dry conditions (which I've experienced a lot in Quebec where the OP lives). That is why I recommended a mid range grind for skis that get a new grind every 3 years.


Edited by vsirin - 3/8/12 at 10:29am
post #9 of 26

There's a guy in Montreal that the provincial team goes to for grinds, I do not know his name, and I'm told he is really good, but hard to get a hold of.  So your next good option is Daniel Lachance up in Tremblant.

 

I would go with a medium cross-linear structure, it's versatile enough to work well in most conditions.

 

You may have to ask for a "race grind", otherwise you might get a messy pattern, and since you don't grind much, I would spend the extra money for a good, clean structure.

 

 

post #10 of 26
To answer your cold structure question.... In the cold dry snow water is scarce but you need it for glide. In this case the fine grind is intended to retain the thin film of water (created from the friction of the ski melting the snow). This lets your wax repel the the water and increase glide.

Read this for details on base grind structure:
http://www.racewax.com/category/tuning-tips.ski-base-structure/

Quote:
Originally Posted by handhdad View Post

If the spring grind has deeper channels to remove greater water, in cold icy weather, what would be the downside to performance as excess channel area would seem to be fine, versus excess water that can't fit in the channel, which would be the case of a fine cold weather grind in the spring? 

 

Not trying to hi-jack - just thinking about pattern choice.

 



 


Edited by Doctor D - 3/8/12 at 3:15pm
post #11 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by handhdad View Post

If the spring grind has deeper channels to remove greater water, in cold icy weather, what would be the downside to performance ...? 

 



The ski will be very slow.  On cold snow, as the base moves, the snow crystals shear and rotate. If the base is has a deep structure, these crystals get trapped in it, shearing and rotation are slower and speed is reduced.

 

post #12 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post

There's a guy in Montreal that the provincial team goes to for grinds, I do not know his name, and I'm told he is really good, but hard to get a hold of.  So your next good option is Daniel Lachance up in Tremblant.

 

I would go with a medium cross-linear structure, it's versatile enough to work well in most conditions.

 

You may have to ask for a "race grind", otherwise you might get a messy pattern, and since you don't grind much, I would spend the extra money for a good, clean structure.

 

 


Tremblant is a bit far away, 5 hours each way. biggrin.gif Looks like this season is done for anyway since it's 10 degree out and pouring, so if no shop close by can do it, I'll wait till next year.

Thanks all.
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

What you need to tell the shop is what you are looking for: side edge bevel, base bevel, and type of grind. If you don't know the bevels you like, 3 side and 1 base is popular with more advanced skiers, 2 side and 1 base is a typical recreational set. The type of grind is the pattern ground into the base. Different grind patterns are optimized for different conditions in terms of turniness (DH skis have a different grind than SL skis), and type of snow. Spring skiing grinds are much deeper to carry away more water, cold weather grinds are finer patterns and lighter in depth. There are hundreds of grind patterns. If this is the first grind in 3 years, then I presume you are looking for an all around grind. It is important to tell the shop that you are looking for a mid-winter or all around grind or this time of year you may get a spring grind which could be not ideal in Dec/Jan/Feb in Quebec.

 

The grind will expose new base material. It will improve your skis' performance if you give them lots of wax and brushing after the grind to saturate the base material with wax and to "break down" the hard edges of the new grind. You can find long detailed threads on the different ways to condition new (or newly ground) skis in terms of wax cycles. I'd recommend starting with some soft conditioning wax cycles.


This was interesting to read.  I was aware that WC racers have up to 14 different skis with different grinds based on snow conditions, but didn't know it applied to amateur skiers (whatever the level or application).

 

Jeez, first it is choosing a ski for the day, then a wax, then the right base structure.  This can get mind-boggling real fast.

 

Oh my.

 

My shop does full machine tunes but I got the impression the machine did only one kind of grind.

 

post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post


This was interesting to read.  I was aware that WC racers have up to 14 different skis with different grinds based on snow conditions, but didn't know it applied to amateur skiers (whatever the level or application).

 

Jeez, first it is choosing a ski for the day, then a wax, then the right base structure.  This can get mind-boggling real fast.

 

Oh my.

 

My shop does full machine tunes but I got the impression the machine did only one kind of grind.

 


Watch this video - http://www.skiracing-digital.com/skiracing/2012issue8/?pg=57&pm=1&u1=friend.#pg57

 

post #15 of 26
Quote:


Nice !  Dave Peszek knows whats up.  word

 

post #16 of 26
Quote:


Thank you, very informative.

 

One of my shops has a Wintersteiger machine that is green like that (not sure if same model).  But I will tell them I want a special GS grind for GS skis.  However, whether or not this happens is a different issue as that shop, well nevermind.

 

 

I'm going to subscribe to this "ski racing digital" magazine... it looks cool.

post #17 of 26

Do shops have to remove your bindings to put your skis through a Wintersteiger machine?

post #18 of 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Do shops have to remove your bindings to put your skis through a Wintersteiger machine?


Only brand new unmounted skis can get a stone grind. wink.gif rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif

 

post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Do shops have to remove your bindings to put your skis through a Wintersteiger machine?


Most shops I've seen use a ramp that fits over the binding so the top roller will roll right over that area without getting caught up on anything.  The shop I use (SkiMD) removes and reinstalls bindings every time they grind.  Mike says it's because you can't get even pressure with the bindings on, and that even pressure is important.  The results aren't cheap, but they are really good..

post #20 of 26

Edgewise, the shop featured in the video and article, also removes the bindings before stone grinding.

post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Do shops have to remove your bindings to put your skis through a Wintersteiger machine?


Depends on the machine. There are lots of Wintersteiger machines. The one in the video does not require that you use a bridge or that you remove the bindings. It uses little pistons that push the ski down. Also, the machine pushes the stone up from below rather than having it fixed. Apparently that gives more even pressure.

post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

Edgewise, the shop featured in the video and article, also removes the bindings before stone grinding.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

The one in the video does not require that you use a bridge or that you remove the bindings. It uses little pistons that push the ski down. Also, the machine pushes the stone up from below rather than having it fixed. Apparently that gives more even pressure.

I may be mistaken in that case. I know that I discussed this with Graham several years ago when he did remove the bindings, but he has moved twice since then and gotten the new machine, so his processes may have changed.
 

 

post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post


 

I may be mistaken in that case. I know that I discussed this with Graham several years ago when he did remove the bindings, but he has moved twice since then and gotten the new machine, so his processes may have changed.
 

 

For sure, he used to remove bindings before he had the new machine. Maybe he still does sometimes, I don't know, but I haven't seen him do it in a while.

 

post #24 of 26


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

Quote:


Only brand new unmounted skis can get a stone grind. wink.gifrolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

 

 

Grinding new unmounted skis is such a joy!  As long as, they don't come from France.  -  hahaha

 

post #25 of 26

But if I have mid-fats that are flat-mounted, I don't want them to undrill the screws, ruining the thread, exposing the wood to the water-based lubricant in the Wintersteiger (and promoting mold growth and rotting), and then re-glue the holes and screw the bindings back in.

 

I'm going to ask about this at the shop I go to.

post #26 of 26

no you don't. 

 

most reputable shops are capable of a legit grind with bindings on,  and on fat skis..well at least mine is...

 

 

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › How much base does stone grind remove?