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do you agree with my Italian Instructor?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

Alright Guys,

I've just had a lesson with an Italian instructor, he's some 60 years old been a ski coach for 40 years,

so skiing away with him, he say "I'm not projecting myself forward and up enough when changing my edges(ive been just shifting my body weight down the fall line with little up movement, he says im not in a position then to re pressure the ski efficently), this forward and up movement puts me then in a better position to the pressure the edges as i then bring my feet back and settle in to the front of the boot and anglate better?

so what do you think?

post #2 of 24

Sounds right to me. But you left out the accent. And I think you have the right idea that "forward" means down the fall line, rather than toward the tips of your skis. Although if your shoulders and hips are aligned to the inside of the turn / down the fall line, then forward = down the fall line.

 

One thing that works for me in terms of thinking/feeling this is the following: First, as you extend upward, do it by standing more onto the uphill (soon to be outside/downhill) ski edge. You should feel the pressure on the outside of that foot (pinky toe or outside of ball of foot). Second, be really patient as you project your weight down the hill / into the turn, and roll slowly onto the new inside/uphill edges. This patience will round the upper part of the turn and give you more control through the entire turn, rather than just the second half / finish of the turn.

post #3 of 24

@rossymcg, @Sinecure:

 

How much of the distinction between a) forward=down the fall line  and b) forward = towards the ski tips   would be made redundant if rossymcg were pulling back the old-inside ski enough to significantly pressure the old-inside ski tip just prior to transition?

post #4 of 24

It's situationally dependent.  If you are going slow, have little mass and skiing an old SG ski, and need to bend the ski, then you need to be a little dynamic and rise to be able to pressure the ski at initiation to get a turn started enough for the turning acceleration forces to take over and keep the ski curved.  If you are skiing fast on a modern flexible slalom ski doing cross-under transitions, there is absolutely no need.  You will find yourself somewhere between the two extremes, but my guess is closer to the no need case.  Just my opinion. YMMV.

 

Of course, if you want to do cross over transitions, that's ok too.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

post #5 of 24
Maybe it's a translation thing. I think your move should be toward the apex of the new turn. That would include both forward along the length of your skis AND toward downhill. This helps you to begin the turn with a release of the edges used for the previous turn.
post #6 of 24

Sounds reasonable.  Keep in mind when talking he was likely demonstrating as well..so the "nuiances" of "forward" that people above are speaking of, was likley covered in his demos.

 

 

Question...if you got the mass "forward" , forward relative to what?  Ie bet your feet?

 

If true...why then do you think you need to bring the feet "back"? 

post #7 of 24

Yeah, I mean if he was Italian, you can't really translate what he was saying without seeing the gestures too. 

post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 

Had another couple of lessons since the last one, the instructor handed me over to a younger more suitable one, 

lessons changed completely, yes when projecting myself forward it was also meant to be in to the fall line also, and yes forward as in meaning feet back, when the terrain gets quicker and steeper I'm tending to ski on just the outside ski with the inside ski slightly further forward therefore no pressure on it and knees creeping together, also angulation when it gets steeps isn't quite enough, did a drill where I kept the outside pole on the snow, worked a treat,

Any one know any more drills I'd find useful?

post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossymcg View Post

Any one know any more drills I'd find useful?


White Pass.

post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

White Pass.



I must admit I'm curious about suggesting this drill for the OP.  Have you had success using it with people who are learning to project their bodies forward and into the next turn, and who are discovering outside ski dominance and angulation?

 

post #11 of 24
The White Pass movement can be used WITHOUT the drama of holding the new outside ski off the snow until the fall line. Just ride the old outside ski into the turn and let the dynamics move your pressure dominance to the new outside ski. It's similar to the 1000 steps center of mass movement without the footwork.

And, yes, this can help someone at the OP's apparent level get away from skiing the whole turn on just the outside ski and learn to blend pressure control movements.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossymcg View Post

Alright Guys,

I've just had a lesson with an Italian instructor, he's some 60 years old been a ski coach for 40 years,

so skiing away with him, he say "I'm not projecting myself forward and up enough when changing my edges(ive been just shifting my body weight down the fall line with little up movement, he says im not in a position then to re pressure the ski efficently), this forward and up movement puts me then in a better position to the pressure the edges as i then bring my feet back and settle in to the front of the boot and anglate better?

so what do you think?


Just for my personal interest, was the Italian instructor also italian-based and Itailan-certified?
Was he speaking Italian or English?
One of the things that the Italian ski technique being taught in schools, (insist upon) is the so called "avanti-interno" movement ("forward-inside").
And they still teach a (very) small degree of uphill shoulder/torso/hip/leg advancement and a (very) small amount of up-move.
Not that the up-move is huge, and to say the truth is not as an active one as in the past...
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

The White Pass movement can be used WITHOUT the drama of holding the new outside ski off the snow until the fall line. Just ride the old outside ski into the turn and let the dynamics move your pressure dominance to the new outside ski. It's similar to the 1000 steps center of mass movement without the footwork.
And, yes, this can help someone at the OP's apparent level get away from skiing the whole turn on just the outside ski and learn to blend pressure control movements.


"Drama" -- I like that.

So you're saying to keep both feet on the snow while doing this modified White Pass drill/movement, but just keep the weight on the old outside/new inside ski during the edge change and onwards until the skis are pointing downhill?  

 

post #14 of 24

Just wanted to add the "White-Pass" turn is extremely useful for those moments when you were concentrating so hard on nailing that small radius arced  turn with your large radius skis that you didn't notice that lift tower directly in your path.

post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post



"Drama" -- I like that.

So you're saying to keep both feet on the snow while doing this modified White Pass drill/movement, but just keep the weight on the old outside/new inside ski during the edge change and onwards until the skis are pointing downhill?  

 


That's the idea, LF. Your speed might make the weight shift a bit eariler than "pointing downhill" though. It should be a progressive pressure management process.

A good shallow terrain drill for this is 1000 steps in big turns without the stepping, only reducing/reapplying pressure to the bottoms of your feet.
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Just wanted to add the "White-Pass" turn is extremely useful for those moments when you were concentrating so hard on nailing that small radius arced  turn with your large radius skis that you didn't notice that lift tower directly in your path.



If you are "concentrating" like that, you are looking at your skis. Never ever a good thing.
post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 


yes he was in the italian alps and italian certified(inter ski i believe the standard through europe)

the second instructor was younger, skied for the italian national 2nd team slalom and gs, he could ski well very well in fact and on all terrain,
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post


Just for my personal interest, was the Italian instructor also italian-based and Itailan-certified?
Was he speaking Italian or English?
One of the things that the Italian ski technique being taught in schools, (insist upon) is the so called "avanti-interno" movement ("forward-inside").
And they still teach a (very) small degree of uphill shoulder/torso/hip/leg advancement and a (very) small amount of up-move.
Not that the up-move is huge, and to say the truth is not as an active one as in the past...



white pass? not so sure what this drill is? i practiced for 2 solid days(i'm a bit of an obsessive and dont stop till i have it right even if its boring me) on bringing my inside ski back to feel the pressure against the tongue of the boot, doing this in its self helped me keep my knees apart and pressure the inside ski more, i could create such tighter arcs and felt so much more in control,

learnt so much in the last week and also from reading info on here,

thanks chaps

 

post #18 of 24
A White Pass turn is begun on the old outside ski (left ski in a right turn) and ended on the new outside ski. So if you've just turned right, you begin to go left on your left ski with the right ski elevated off the snow (primarily because you have inclined to the left a bunch) and as you reach the fall line, you settle onto your right ski to complete the turn. This is an old racing technique started by the Mahre brothers in the 1980s.
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


If you are "concentrating" like that, you are looking at your skis. Never ever a good thing.


Actually, I was looking at the lodge at the base of the hill.  I was spacing out a bit though, must have been hypothermic.

Also found myself using it once while playing chair shadow slalom (was looking at the chair shadows then).

 

Fortunately for me, my auto-pilot radar warns me whenever anything or anyone is within the collision danger zone redface.gif

post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post



Fortunately for me, my auto-pilot radar warns me whenever anything or anyone is within the collision danger zone redface.gif


Oooohhhhh, where do you get that feature? Would have kept me skiing this season.
post #21 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


Oooohhhhh, where do you get that feature? Would have kept me skiing this season.



you suffered an injury at the hands of an out of control skier?

 

post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


Oooohhhhh, where do you get that feature? Would have kept me skiing this season.


Im not sure.  Maybe its from decades of skiing, or millions of miles of driving (it works in the car too!), but I think a big part of developing it was a few decades of martial arts, where peripheral vision and being aware of what it's telling you, and reaction there-to, played a big part in being able to fight (not to mention being able to breath).

post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossymcg View Post



you suffered an injury at the hands of an out of control skier?

 


I think he was out of control: http://www.epicski.com/t/108711/ah-well-oh-crap
post #24 of 24

 

Quote:
when the terrain gets quicker and steeper I'm tending to ski on just the outside ski with the inside ski slightly further forward therefore no pressure on it and knees creeping together, also angulation when it gets steeps isn't quite enough, did a drill where I kept the outside pole on the snow, worked a treat,

Any one know any more drills I'd find useful?

Drag both poles hard on the snow.  As the pitch increases you will increase your angulation to keep that outside pole dragging hard on the snow.  Add to the drill--counter-rotate your body while dragging the poles.  As the turn progresses (say to the left), you rotate your body from the hips upward to the right so your inside pole ends up dragging near your inside ski tip and the outside pole is dragging downhill from your outside heel.  By the way, try to keep your ski tips even.  You will be better balanced.  There is no functional reason to shove the inside ski forward.  If the knees are creeping together due to big toe pressure, stop that pressure.  Instead, tip the inside ski up on its little toe edge and allow (don't force, just allow) your knees & hips to curve toward the hill.

 

One problem with U.S. ski instruction (and it sounds the same in Italy) is that when they update the instruction, they don't clearly cancel the old instructional technique.  Any procedure manual in any office or factory will have clear instructions to remove an old requirement when a new requirement replaces it.  Ski instruction should be, but isn't, done this way.  They just layer new stuff on old stuff without clearly deleting the old stuff.  Instructors teach what they last learned, even if it was years ago and superseded perhaps multiple times.

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