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Question about recent article in SKI Magazine regaruding Bode's boot fit - Page 2

post #31 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



 


So how does the internal length of a 150 RD compare to a 130 RS, within the HEAD Raptor line?  You're saying the shells have the same external dimensions, with thicker walls of plastic (as opposed to the same plastic thickness but just narrower last)???

 


The 150 RD is totally different to the 130 RS.  The RD has a 95 last vs. 98, thicker and different plastic, not sure about ramp and forward lean, but likley that is different too. The 150 has a real low ramp and upright cuff.  I ski the 150RD...best, and most comfortable boots I have ever had, I ski em all day, and dont even need to unbuckle at lunch....but they are an absolute m*ther F*%$ker to get on and off....unless the shells are at room temperature, or close...impossible to get them on.

 

post #32 of 95


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOTech,Inc. View Post

 

Besides, everybody knows you can't win in a 325mm shell (28MP), this is why most companies do not bother to build their race boots in a 29MP (Atomic being an exception) no one will wear them.

 

It doesn't really matter what size foot you have you are going into a 7 or 8 UK.

 

 

jl

 


What? I have a nordica Jah Love in a 325 shell.(on your recommendation Jim) Is there something i should know?frown.gif

 

post #33 of 95

By the way, my boots fit great and i love them. i am just confused by you statement.

post #34 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiingblind View Post

By the way, my boots fit great and i love them. i am just confused by you statement.



Maybe you can't win in a shell size above that because the last is too wide for the sub-70mm race skis, and with the edge angles the pros generate, boot-outs would be too likely, or even maybe certain.  This is just a guess.

post #35 of 95

I only put my boots on in the lodge and I bring a small hairdryer in my pack and heat them up. Also I spray the inside of the spine with Food Grade Silicone Spray. It's the stuff you use on rubber dry-suit seals. They're even a bitch to get on  at room temp.


 

You now jogged my memory. Huge difference between the RD and RS as SD72 said. Did the RS have lace up liner? I don't think so.

 

Also, with the lace up liner you must first put the liner on your foot lace it up and then stuff the whole enchilada into the shell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


The 150 RD is totally different to the 130 RS.  The RD has a 95 last vs. 98, thicker and different plastic, not sure about ramp and forward lean, but likley that is different too. The 150 has a real low ramp and upright cuff.  I ski the 150RD...best, and most comfortable boots I have ever had, I ski em all day, and dont even need to unbuckle at lunch....but they are an absolute m*ther F*%$ker to get on and off....unless the shells are at room temperature, or close...impossible to get them on.

 



 

post #36 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

I only put my boots on in the lodge and I bring a small hairdryer in my pack and heat them up. Also I spray the inside of the spine with Food Grade Silicone Spray. It's the stuff you use on rubber dry-suit seals. They're even a bitch to get on  at room temp.


 

You now jogged my memory. Huge difference between the RD and RS as SD72 said. Did the RS have lace up liner? I don't think so.

 

Also, with the lace up liner you must first put the liner on your foot lace it up and then stuff the whole enchilada into the shell.



 

 

 

I heard that; that is interesting.  I now have a lace-up Intuition, but I dislike shoving the whole enchilada into the shell and taking it out, so I just leave it in there, and boy is it a bitch to get on and off (but I'm sure not as difficult as your RD).

 

At one point I was excited because I read that HEAD's retail Raptor boots were the real deal (i.e. what the WC people use), only difference being flex and last.  Apparently not the case with the RS?

 

Whatever, my boot finally fits with my Intuitions, and I hope they last many seasons.  I know eventually the plastic will disintegrate, but I hope that is in the distant future.
 

 

post #37 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiingblind View Post


 


What? I have a nordica Jah Love in a 325 shell.(on your recommendation Jim) Is there something i should know?frown.gif

 


Relax, just because the WCuppers won't wear that size doesn't mean you shouldn't. Superstition is silly..

 

Different horses for different courses, and different horses wear different shoes.

 

However, in the interest of fairness and customer satisfaction, if your FIS points go below 100 in any discipline, the first pair of 315mm boots will be on me.

 

smile.gif

 

jl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #38 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOTech,Inc. View Post

 

 

Besides, everybody knows you can't win in a 325mm shell (28MP), this is why most companies do not bother to build their race boots in a 29MP (Atomic being an exception) no one will wear them.

 

It doesn't really matter what size foot you have you are going into a 7 or 8 UK.

 

 

jl

 


When your boots are that big , you can just skip the skis, and wax the bottom of the boot.

 


 

 

post #39 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

 

 

I heard that; that is interesting.  I now have a lace-up Intuition, but I dislike shoving the whole enchilada into the shell and taking it out, so I just leave it in there, and boy is it a bitch to get on and off (but I'm sure not as difficult as your RD).

 

At one point I was excited because I read that HEAD's retail Raptor boots were the real deal (i.e. what the WC people use), only difference being flex and last.  Apparently not the case with the RS?

 

Whatever, my boot finally fits with my Intuitions, and I hope they last many seasons.  I know eventually the plastic will disintegrate, but I hope that is in the distant future.
 

 



But by your own account, you haven't taken care of the bottom of your boots. This is how most ski boots are worn out well well well before the shells fail from age.

And no, the RS isn't a WC race boot. A WC boot isn't the right tool for the vast majority of skiers, including just about everyone here. And one has to ask, what does the magic mondo 28 for WC success have to do with anyone other than WC racers? My boot soles are 323, so I guess I'm ready to go, huh? smile.gif  And do I get some new boots if my points in all disciplines were below 100 30 years ago?  

beercheer.gif


Edited by markojp - 2/27/12 at 7:52am
post #40 of 95

Most people are in a street shoe that is at least a size bigger than their foot actually measures and 2 sizes bigger in a sneaker, so all this talk about being in a boot two sizes smaller than their shoe size is nonsense. The real comparison is what does you foot actually measure between a conventional Brannock Device and Mondo devise. The mondo size is usually true to the Brannock measurement.

post #41 of 95
Thread Starter 

Ski boot manufacturers ought to publish the internal shell length and internal last width, plain-and-simple.

post #42 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Ski boot manufacturers ought to publish the internal shell length and internal last width, plain-and-simple.



http://skicanadamag.com/assets/data/1112boot_list.html

 

(the Alpina boots at the top of the list do NOT have a Width entry.  But many many other brands do.   Scroll down

A very helpful compilation. 

 

The Head Raptors dont list a specific MM, just a description. Not sure what to make of the sizes column

BRAND MODEL STATUS CATEGORY LEVEL WIDTH SIZES LINER MSRP        
Head RAPTOR B3 RD Updated Race E WC Last -6 Race Pro $900.00        
Head RAPTOR 130 RS Updated Race E Race Last -8.5 Perf Pro $700.00        
Head RAPTOR Project Updated Race A-E Race Last -7.5 Heatfit Pro $550.00        
Head RAPTOR 115 RS Updated Race A-E Race Last -8.5 Heatfit Pro $550.00

 

 

FWIW, i find the Ski Canada reviews to be quite good, spread out over several issues in the early / pre season.

 

 

post #43 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betaracer View Post

There are three criteria to boot fit...performance, comfort, warmth... but you can only have two.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



I now have all three too, thanks to my new liners

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



Rock on... I am 10.5 street shoe/285 mondo.  I currently do 26, but may explore the wide Langes (or other boots) in a 25.5, as I tried on a 26.5 Lange RX 130, and it felt way too damn good... (and like the Nickelback song teaches us, there's gotta be something wrong if it feels way too damn good).


If you have all 3 now, why are you thinking of changing????  Better off listening to Daveski7

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveski7 View Post

Wear the boot that fits you, stop thinking so much. Just sayin'



 

post #44 of 95

This is probably true, so in reality it may be that the mondo system is only off by 1 size instead of 2 (for some), since you're eliminating all of that extra toe space from your street shoe.  Sadly, though, you know how they do it in most rental shops: "Oh, you wear a size 10 street shoe?  Here's your size 28 ski boot."
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric S View Post

Most people are in a street shoe that is at least a size bigger than their foot actually measures and 2 sizes bigger in a sneaker, so all this talk about being in a boot two sizes smaller than their shoe size is nonsense. The real comparison is what does you foot actually measure between a conventional Brannock Device and Mondo devise. The mondo size is usually true to the Brannock measurement.



 

post #45 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOTech,Inc. View Post

While it is absolutely true that smaller boots ski better, having your toes curled is not an advantage. 

 

Besides, everybody knows you can't win in a 325mm shell (28MP), this is why most companies do not bother to build their race boots in a 29MP (Atomic being an exception) no one will wear them.

 

It doesn't really matter what size foot you have you are going into a 7 or 8 UK.

 

 

jl

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOTech,Inc. View Post


Relax, just because the WCuppers won't wear that size doesn't mean you shouldn't. Superstition is silly..

 

Different horses for different courses, and different horses wear different shoes.

 

However, in the interest of fairness and customer satisfaction, if your FIS points go below 100 in any discipline, the first pair of 315mm boots will be on me.

 

smile.gif

 

jl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


As a guy that measures 13.5/14 US (and I think a 31 mondo), I am trying to understand your statements.  Are you saying that if you took two identical skiers except for foot size that the guy with the smaller feet/properly fit boots would have an advantage?  I have thought that having a bigger foot may make it harder to bend a ski (or create a bigger flat spot), but have never seen anyone else talk about this.  

 

post #46 of 95

The idea of cramming a foot into something smaller than it was intended isn't new.  The ancient Chinese called it "foot binding."  Over one billion Chinese women wore "lotus shoes" to enhance their attractiveness.   Perhaps some company should start marketing a "Lotus Boot" for World Cup racers?

 

http://www.asianartmall.com/chinesefootbinding.htm

post #47 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree30 View Post

 

 


If you have all 3 now, why are you thinking of changing????  Better off listening to Daveski7

 



 



I have comfort, performance, and warmth.  That still doesn't mean those three categories are optimized, or MAXIMIZED.

 

Now to your second sentence quoted....  Not all my questions relate to my own skiing.  Some are asked with sole purpose of generating informative dialogue.  I told this to another member.

post #48 of 95


FIFY  duck.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



I have comfort, performance, and warmth.  That still doesn't mean those three categories are optimized, or MAXIMIZED.

 

Now to your second sentence quoted....  Not all my questions relate to my own skiing.  MOST are asked with sole purpose of generating informative dialogue.  I told this to another member.


 

 

post #49 of 95

The racers may have tight fit, but not uncomfortable.  I once watched the second run of a World Cup slalom with a US Ski team menber who blew out in the first run.  He watched the second run in his boots without even unbuckling them.  It amazed me, because I raced with guys who cut the toe insulation out of their boots to cram into smaller shells, and unbuckled everything every run.

post #50 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post

Perhaps some company should start marketing a "Lotus Boot" for World Cup racers?


Not for racers, but Dalbello does have a "lotus" boot :-)

 

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post #51 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree30 View Post



 


As a guy that measures 13.5/14 US (and I think a 31 mondo), I am trying to understand your statements.  Are you saying that if you took two identical skiers except for foot size that the guy with the smaller feet/properly fit boots would have an advantage?  I have thought that having a bigger foot may make it harder to bend a ski (or create a bigger flat spot), but have never seen anyone else talk about this.  

 

All I said was that was that at the WC level there is a belief that you can't win in a 32cm ski boot, so there is a reluctance to wear them. As a result, no one (except Atomic) bothers to build

their plug boots in a size 29 since no one will use the 28.

 

This does not mean you cannot ski well with large feet. Plug boots are 92mm-95mm last width (in the design size) this does not mean you cannot ski well if your feet are wider than this.

 

All any of this means, is that the Italians in Montebelluna, (and they are the arbiters in these things) have decided, that if you ski really well, your feet are narrow and not very large.

 

If you should fall outside these parameters and still manage to ski really (really) well, your sponsors (and they will be bidding) will attend to your needs.

 

The rest of us will be fine with boots that are well suited to the size and shape of our feet and properly tuned to our individual mechanics.

 

jl
 

 

post #52 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post



http://skicanadamag.com/assets/data/1112boot_list.html

 

(the Alpina boots at the top of the list do NOT have a Width entry.  But many many other brands do.   Scroll down

A very helpful compilation. 

 

                         
                         
                         
                         
                00

 

 

FWIW, i find the Ski Canada reviews to be quite good, spread out over several issues in the early / pre season.

 

 

 

Note that some of the plug boots are not listed here.  For example the Atomic plugs are the TI  (95mm) and the STI (93mm)
 

 

post #53 of 95
Thread Starter 

Can someone either post or link me to something (something useful) that explains the difference between a real WC "plug" boot, and a 100-mm-lasted mono-injected "race" boot?

post #54 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Can someone either post or link me to something (something useful) that explains the difference between a real WC "plug" boot, and a 100-mm-lasted mono-injected "race" boot?


It would be impossible to "compare" to general ideas like Plug vs. 100-mm-lasted mono-injected "race" boot.

 

But generally - plugs are narrower, stiffer laterally, stiffer fore/aft, and have much much thinner liners which makes the boots more responsive.  Liners are also usually lace up.  Also plugs tend to be fully bolted vs. rivets.  This makes customisation much easier.  Plugs also tend to have a different plastic...not sure what this gives you, but I know it is different.   

 

Will any of this matter for you?  No.
 

 

post #55 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Can someone either post or link me to something (something useful) that explains the difference between a real WC "plug" boot, and a 100-mm-lasted mono-injected "race" boot?


http://www.bootfitters.com/oldsite/06_plug.htm

 

Plug =  sport_moto-gp_tracks.jpeg

 

100mm 'race'= Sprint_gallery_pop_2_2008.jpg

 

post #56 of 95

I have a size 11 C/D width foot, and it's spent a lot of years in ski boots or on a tennis court, etc, so it has some abnormalities, as is common for most athletes.  I currently ski in Atomic 130 CSs, 26.0 MP, and have two pairs. I want as small a shell as I can get into because I can feel the ski and the terrain better, and can more easily make the ski do what I want. I pretty much know exactly how my boots have to be ground/tweaked, and I've had the same shop in Boulder doing it for years, so it's not a big deal.  I usually do one session, go ski, come back and tweak it one more time, and it's done. 

 

Having said all that, the 130 CS is not a plug boot, and I don't want or need that level of granularity. It's a 98 mm last, I can't get into the RaceTech TI, which is a 95 mm last. My boots are in a HotGear back all night before I go up to train, and the bag is plugged into my cigarette lighter for the drive up. So my boots are warm and easy to get on in the morning...relatively.  A close fitting race boot is still going to be a challenge to get on or off, but once they're on, they're pretty much fine.  I don't know where MondoPoint came from, but it's obviously a Euro invention, like metric, so I don't get too hung up about whatever MP number I'm in.  If it fits, after customizing, and lets me ski the way I want, Atomic can put any number on it they want...

smile.gif

 

post #57 of 95
Thread Starter 

I knew how a plug was different.

 

What I was getting at is the manufacturing/molding process.  How is that different from an RS 130?

 

If "plug" merely refers to last, extra bolting, and plastic thickness, but not a different manufacturing process, that is one thing.

 

However, if they are totally differently-manufactured boots, that is quite another.

post #58 of 95

Modern "plug" boots aren't that much different than the "detuned" version. Most use very similar outer shell moulds (with possibly toe and heel lugs being over DIN) and cuffs. The relaxed fit version usually have a wider forefoot in the mould plug, with the rest of the shape being identical. Atomic World/Europa Cup athletes who typically need more grinding have been using the CS plug. Plastic variations are the same. I was comparing my new Redster WC150 to my PRO130 and the differences are hard to spot. Both use the exact same cuff, same buckles (WC has locks on cuff ones), same tongue and liner cuff, same Power Control and hinge hardware. Differences are thicker wall of forefoot on the WC150, harder shell plastic, liner of PRO has heat mouldable ankle foam and more neoprene in the toebox, and a skirt over the toe/tongue area.

 

"Plug" boots aren't hard to come by if they are desired. Any retailer can order them during booking, and during the season as availibility allows.

post #59 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

If "plug" merely refers to last, extra bolting, and plastic thickness, but not a different manufacturing process, that is one thing.

 

However, if they are totally differently-manufactured boots, that is quite another.


Well, having a different last, different hardware and much thicker plastic DOES make it a totally different boot. A 100mm consumer boot is meant to be bought and skied-in more or less as-is. A plug boot is meant to be assembled and configured to exactly what the racer is looking for. The clogs and cuffs come in different flexes which can be mixed and matched, the thick plastic allows for massive amounts of sculpting and liners can be anything from stock to wildly custom. The manufacturing process might not vary by much from consumer to plug, but the 'process' of fitting them to the user sure does.

 

post #60 of 95

There's really no correlation between mondo size and normal shoe sizes. Hell... there's no comparison even between normal shoe sizes... Personally I have Adidas running shoes ranging from 42 to 44 2/3 (EURO size, but I guess that would go somewhere from 9 to 11 in US size), and they all fit perfectly, and what's even worse, they are all exactly same size! And they are all from same company, so you can imagine how these numbers go between different companies, and then imagine how they would apply to something totally different, like ski boots.

Otherwise as quite few stated already, race boots are smaller. My skiing boots (Fischer WC Pro 130 95mm) are 27.5. If I would be racing, I would move down to 27, considering current 27.5 is damn tight already. But for racing you need a bit extra "grip", so tighter and smaller boot gives you that extra feel needed to transfer your power and "feel" directly to ski. On the other side, my working boots are 28.5. They might be a little bit too big, but I can still ski down any of WC courses without problems, without feeling my leg is floating in boot etc. But once you are used to tight race boots, 1 number bigger boots, just don't feel right. But then again, there's really no way, I would be standing in race boots on hill for few hours. Too cold, too tight.
Considering majority of people don't ski like racers do, it's normal they don't have their equipment dialed in like racers do. First of all, my 27.5 boots needed whole bunch of work, before I was able to ski for 4 or 5 hours in them, without feeling I would be in middle of inquisition torture. Most people, don't have tools, and/or service and even money to do this kind of work. Just imagine how much would it cost, if you would need 10 or 15 visits to boot fitter who would be grinding your boots bit by bit after every new ski day, when your boots still wouldn't work perfectly. Not to mention, that a whole lot of people, hardly get 10 to 15 ski days in a season ;) To avoid this, you simply get a bit bigger boot, and you don't have those problems. And like I said, most of people don't ski so aggressively as racers do, so there's no need for such tight fits, and a bit bigger boots do just fine.

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