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When to use which brush? - Page 2

post #31 of 47

Unless I am racing, I pretty much steer clear of the warm weather waxes, the Swix I use is a 7.7 and the Holmenkol Beta is about a 7. I haven't had any base burn but the most my skis have ever seen is 2 days between waxes and all but my unused fat skis have been hot boxed. I have lately become a big fan of moly as a general improvement in almost all situations.

post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

Unless I am racing, I pretty much steer clear of the warm weather waxes, the Swix I use is a 7.7 and the Holmenkol Beta is about a 7. I haven't had any base burn but the most my skis have ever seen is 2 days between waxes and all but my unused fat skis have been hot boxed. I have lately become a big fan of moly as a general improvement in almost all situations.



The one bar of mid-fluoro moly I went through by far made the biggest difference in my glide.

post #33 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post
The one bar of mid-fluoro moly I went through by far made the biggest difference in my glide.


Moly has been in and out of fashion for a couple of decades now. It works well on some snows but it can be quite unpredictable, especially on new snow. There is no straight moly in the major wax company line-ups for next season, except for the Swix base prep which is not supposed to be used as a glide wax anyway. This is the reason it has never been used in the Dominator formulations.
 

 

post #34 of 47

I have both the swix moly fluoro base prep, which works very well as a glide wax (a former WC tech recommended it for training), and the Holmenkol graphite/moly additive which I have added to both very cold waxes and to soft hi fluoros for spring conditions. I ski mostly in Pennsylvania on man made and this winter, virtually no new snow. I have found it to be a very good addition but I know that there are no waxes that are best in all condition. I can tell you it has been good in aggressive, man made ice and melted icy crystals that has been through numerous melt/freeze cycles. 

post #35 of 47

So how bad (for your health) is waxing with high fluoro wax a couple of times a year?

 

I use warm wax if it's warm.  Why wouldn't you?

 

 

post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post.. I can tell you it has been good in aggressive, man made ice and melted icy crystals that has been through numerous melt/freeze cycles. 



These are the ideal conditions for moly, and if the snow temp matches the range of the base prep, then performance will be good. The question is what happens when conditions change. There is a natural selection process in waxes as well and the fact that moly glide waxes are hardly available is a good indication of their performance range.

 

post #37 of 47

I find that the non fluoro warm waxes, ch10 or Holmenkol alpha, just don't hold up in melty eastern snow which usually has a high percent of man made. I also find that as the day gets late and the snow sets up or if the temperature falls, they just get slow. If it is really super wet snow, I like the Holmenkol silicone  and graphite/moly added to beta for a non- fluoro solution. In terms of safety of fluoros, I just know what I've read. They are potentially dangerous and become more so at higher temps. I use a respirator and open my door to the outside (about 20 feet from my wax table) when I am applying and use the respirator when scraping. I don't imagine the minimal level of exposure is very dangerous and a high fluoro really works like nothing else on a wet melty course.

post #38 of 47

Since Thanos K has been kind enough to offer his expert advice, I should also mention that one of the warmest weather waxes that works best is Dominator Butter. Like other soft waxes (it is a fluoro rub on), it does not last well in the East with ice crystals but it is excellent out West where there is less man made snow in the melt. Another  less durable one I bring with me in April is Race Service ZuprTour which is a rub on that works well in the west but only lasts a run or 2 but is easy to apply and fairly cheap.

post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

I find that the non fluoro warm waxes, ch10 or Holmenkol alpha, just don't hold up in melty eastern snow which usually has a high percent of man made. I also find that as the day gets late and the snow sets up or if the temperature falls, they just get slow. If it is really super wet snow, I like the Holmenkol silicone  and graphite/moly added to beta for a non- fluoro solution. In terms of safety of fluoros, I just know what I've read. They are potentially dangerous and become more so at higher temps. I use a respirator and open my door to the outside (about 20 feet from my wax table) when I am applying and use the respirator when scraping. I don't imagine the minimal level of exposure is very dangerous and a high fluoro really works like nothing else on a wet melty course.



icon14.gif  Yup, the silicone does a great job when we get to wet/April snow

post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

 

 

I am not sure I agree on the time consuming part. I generally do about the same prep whenever I ski (up to the overlay part) and can wax 3 pair in half an hour (including edge touchup with diamond files) and then about another half hour for the scrape and brushing and packing of the 3 pair. I guess it is time consuming to some but to me it is not too bad every week and it has a very good payoff in performance.

 



No way do you do 3 pair of race skis in an hour!!  It takes 20-25 minutes to tune edges on 1 pair!!(I mean WC sharp)  Hot scrapes are another 10 per pair, final wax 15, overnight cooling, scraping and brushing 20-25, overlays???  How the F@#% are you doing 3 PAIRS in 1 hour?!?!?!?!?

post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by AttitudeXX View Post



No way do you do 3 pair of race skis in an hour!!  It takes 20-25 minutes to tune edges on 1 pair!!(I mean WC sharp)  Hot scrapes are another 10 per pair, final wax 15, overnight cooling, scraping and brushing 20-25, overlays???  How the F@#% are you doing 3 PAIRS in 1 hour?!?!?!?!?



This is what I was getting at.  Doing a "complete job" on 1 pair of skis, edges, to layers of wax, the works, takes too long in my opinion.  If I raced more competitively than I do and had a major race a couple times a year I could justify that, but at the same time for such a race I might feel more comfortable getting a professional tune from a shop.

 

I don't want to dissuade anyone from trying it (I've done it, and the results can be great), it's just that it is so time consuming.

post #42 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by AttitudeXX View Post

No way do you do 3 pair of race skis in an hour!!  It takes 20-25 minutes to tune edges on 1 pair!!(I mean WC sharp)  Hot scrapes are another 10 per pair, final wax 15, overnight cooling, scraping and brushing 20-25, overlays???  How the F@#% are you doing 3 PAIRS in 1 hour?!?!?!?!?

 I do my edges every time I ski and I make passes with 3 diamond moonflex files. WC sharp takes longer and I use a whole series of polishing stones but I don't usually do WC sharp for nomal skiing. The skis all have the same 3 degree bevels so I don't need to change tools. I use a Holmenkol table with the racks above so it is just pop the skis in do the 100, move on to the next one. Hot scrape - how could you spend 10 minutes per pair? Drip the wax on, 3 or 4 passes with the iron, scrape it off - 5 min. max. Final wax 15 min???? Do you use an iron? What are you doing for 15 minutes? It is quicker than the hot scrape because there is no scraping. Scrape and brush - metal brushes and very sharp scrapers cut the time dramatically and I was not including overlays. Maybe it is an hour and 10 or minutes but I do this all the time and it is not a big time consumer for me. When I first starting doing this it took at least twice or 3 times as long. I've watched two WC tuners work, had a clinic from one, and I am slow by their standards.
 

 

post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by AttitudeXX View Post



No way do you do 3 pair of race skis in an hour!!  It takes 20-25 minutes to tune edges on 1 pair!!(I mean WC sharp)  Hot scrapes are another 10 per pair, final wax 15, overnight cooling, scraping and brushing 20-25, overlays???  How the F@#% are you doing 3 PAIRS in 1 hour?!?!?!?!?


 

Actually, it takes most people I know just a bit over that. About 4 minutes per edge, under 10 minutes to hot scrape AND lay down the race wax. Scraping and brushing the next day is the most labor intensive part, especially for the cold waxes. But if you do the first pass with a soft, fine steel (or brass) hand brush, followed by roto brushing with the appropriate brushes, three pair will take a bit over twenty minutes. You do need loud music to get you into the rythm, not zen new-age stuff!

 

We always apply overlays at the start, around 3-4 minutes per pair if properly set up. A few weeks ago in Japan we did 34 pair in 95 minutes during an overlay glide test; with one person applying the brake retainers and the other the overlays we averaged less than 3 minutes per pair. But it was quite labor intensive and non-stop, my triceps were sore the next day smile.gif.
 

 


Edited by Thanos K - 3/2/12 at 4:07am
post #44 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

 I do my edges every time I ski and I make passes with 3 diamond moonflex files. WC sharp takes longer and I use a whole series of polishing stones but I don't usually do WC sharp for nomal skiing. The skis all have the same 3 degree bevels so I don't need to change tools. I use a Holmenkol table with the racks above so it is just pop the skis in do the 100, move on to the next one. Hot scrape - how could you spend 10 minutes per pair? Drip the wax on, 3 or 4 passes with the iron, scrape it off - 5 min. max. Final wax 15 min???? Do you use an iron? What are you doing for 15 minutes? It is quicker than the hot scrape because there is no scraping. Scrape and brush - metal brushes and very sharp scrapers cut the time dramatically and I was not including overlays. Maybe it is an hour and 10 or minutes but I do this all the time and it is not a big time consumer for me. When I first starting doing this it took at least twice or 3 times as long. I've watched two WC tuners work, had a clinic from one, and I am slow by their standards.
 

 



I iron in the wax for the hot scrape a lot, scrape it, do the other ski, come back, scrape the first ski again, brush the first ski with steel/brass/nylon, then next wax on.  I also over iron the final wax, i also do a blended wax near the edges with a cold wax or powder, so that takes longer.  For brushing, if it is cold, I do steel/brass/stiff nylon/med. nylon/ horsehair(cork/horsehair)/soft nylon/felt.

post #45 of 47

After the hot scrape, you should not have to brush. (Use sharp scapers).  Also, for the hot scrape you don't want to get the wax too hot so it is total liquid all over the ski. You want it melted with a trail something like 4 to 8 inches of fluid as the iron passes. It it is too wet, it does not hold the dirt particles as well (so I've  been told). After you scrape it, you really should not have to re-scrape.

 

Scrape and brushing cold waxes take lots longer, I live in PA and unfortunately we have not needed cold waxes all winter. But the scraping so that you don't chip it can take lots of extra time. I don't do cold powder on the edges unless it is way cold (-10F or below) or if I am traveling and need to get more than 2 days on the skis before the next wax and then I do a cold(er) wax underlay over the whole ski.

 

One of the things that I found really cut my time was a good scraper sharpener which I use at least 2x on every ski.

post #46 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

After the hot scrape, you should not have to brush. (Use sharp scapers).  Also, for the hot scrape you don't want to get the wax too hot so it is total liquid all over the ski. You want it melted with a trail something like 4 to 8 inches of fluid as the iron passes. It it is too wet, it does not hold the dirt particles as well (so I've  been told). After you scrape it, you really should not have to re-scrape.

 

Scrape and brushing cold waxes take lots longer, I live in PA and unfortunately we have not needed cold waxes all winter. But the scraping so that you don't chip it can take lots of extra time. I don't do cold powder on the edges unless it is way cold (-10F or below) or if I am traveling and need to get more than 2 days on the skis before the next wax and then I do a cold(er) wax underlay over the whole ski.

 

One of the things that I found really cut my time was a good scraper sharpener which I use at least 2x on every ski.

REVIVAL OF THE THREAD!!

Just clarifying, i have a scraper sharpener and it does cut time, but after hot scraping, if you let your ski cool, it will get hazy as the base squeezes out wax.  If you don't brush, you leave warm temp wax in your structure and your base, which is often why I use my approximated wax of the day to do 1 or 2 hot scrapes after as well.  I think it gets more of the wax that you want in the base.  BTW, I don't have roto brushes, which adds time, and I do probably 10-12 passes with each brush, sometimes more depending on if I can still see wax coming out or not.

post #47 of 47

Here is how I do it at double speed video.  I weigh only 125 and almost never get passed if I am gliding.

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