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Are movements the opposite in the bumps?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

I ran across this video where Mike Rogan says, "Bumps demand that you use a lot of flexing and extending movements. However, the timing of these movements in moguls is the opposite of what you do on the smooth terrain.  In the bumps flex your joints to start the turn and extend them to maintain balance as you push your ski's through the finish of the turn." 

 

I kind of feel that the movements are the same, just lots more flexing and extending.

 

Here is the video

 

post #2 of 21

I don't wish to speak for Michael however, in his absence here on Epic I would suggest his intent with this description is to accentuate the fact that in moguls we tend to flex to change edges rather than extend to change edges as on groomers.  The extension occurs after the edges are changed and works to fill the void as the terrain drops away and prepares us for absorbing the next impact by lengthening our suspension.  As we flex to absorb the next impact our feet move ahead of our hips and change edges, then our hips move ahead of our feet as we extend, and so on.

 

We can certainly use these same movements on groomers too and they become more appropriate as turning forces increase and we absorb the virtual bump of pressure build up at the end of our turns.

post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

I don't wish to speak for Michael however, in his absence here on Epic I would suggest his intent with this description is to accentuate the fact that in moguls we tend to flex to change edges rather than extend to change edges as on groomers.  The extension occurs after the edges are changed and works to fill the void as the terrain drops away and prepares us for absorbing the next impact by lengthening our suspension.  As we flex to absorb the next impact our feet move ahead of our hips and change edges, then our hips move ahead of our feet as we extend, and so on.

 

We can certainly use these same movements on groomers too and they become more appropriate as turning forces increase and we absorb the virtual bump of pressure build up at the end of our turns.


 

I still think that you extend when you change edges though.  Maybe not as dynamic as you would in the groomers.  Just take a look at 1:17 - 1:25 in the video, he is still extending at the beginning of the turn and flexing at the end.

 

I also feel that by saying flex you skis at the beginning of the turn and then push your skis out makes it sound like a very defensive strategy to skiing moguls.  

post #4 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceK View Post


 


 

I still think that you extend when you change edges though.  Maybe not as dynamic as you would in the groomers.  Just take a look at 1:17 - 1:25 in the video, he is still extending at the beginning of the turn and flexing at the end.

 

I also feel that by saying flex you skis at the beginning of the turn and then push your skis out makes it sound like a very defensive strategy to skiing moguls.  


I'm confused by your thought process Vince. Can you clarify for me? Are you saying that how Michael skis the bumps is also how you ski the groomers i.e. you flex at edge transition and extend through the shaping phase of the turn or are you saying that you, in the bumps, extend at edge transition and flex through the shaping phase and that is what you are seeing Michael do?

 

While I'll agree that, "push your skis out," is not the best phrase, I beleive, what Michael is saying is that you need to actively push you feet to maintain ski to snow contact on the backside of a mogul.

post #5 of 21

This video didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

Flexing / extending movements in bumps are something I do to keep my skis on the ground.  You can traverse across a bump field flexing and extending the whole way and not make a single turn.

 

Edge change movements are something I do to turn.  Edges can be switched in the bump trough (legs extended) or while going over the top of a bump (legs flexed).

 

I think it's easiest in bumps to switch edges while flexed since your skis have only minimal contact with the snow while going over the top of a bump, but I think it's limiting to believe that's the only place to do it.

 

I believe that turning on top of a bump is virtually identical to making a retraction turn on a groomer.  As Mike said in the video though, retraction turns are "backwards" from the way that most people ski.

post #6 of 21


Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

This video didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

Flexing / extending movements in bumps are something I do to keep my skis on the ground.  You can traverse across a bump field flexing and extending the whole way and not make a single turn.

 

Edge change movements are something I do to turn.  Edges can be switched in the bump trough (legs extended) or while going over the top of a bump (legs flexed).

 

I think it's easiest in bumps to switch edges while flexed since your skis have only minimal contact with the snow while going over the top of a bump, but I think it's limiting to believe that's the only place to do it.

 

I believe that turning on top of a bump is virtually identical to making a retraction turn on a groomer.  As Mike said in the video though, retraction turns are "backwards" from the way that most people ski.


icon14.gif

 

Nicely put.

 

Furthering your first point, traversing a bump field without turning - flexing and extending to maintain ski/snow contact - is actually an important exercise in a skier's development. It helps bump newbies build a feel for the expanded range of motion that bumps require - without the pressure of turning. This skill should be learned before a student even attempts a turn in the bumps (IMO).
 

Once absorption skills are attained, it is generally easiest to initiate a bump turn at the moment our feet pass over the crest (tips and tails being momentarily suspended in mid-air). While it's desirable to add other turns to one's quiver, I believe this one should be learned first. It gives the new bumper a turn that works in most circumstances so they can build mileage and confidence. I suspect that's the level of skier this vid is aimed at.

 

However, IMO it's much more helpful to suggest initiating this turn "as your feet pass over the crest of the bump", rather than "when you're flexed". The reason we're initiating here is not that we're flexed, that's just a coincidence. We're initiating here because our tips and tails are free of the snow. Focus the student's attention on what matters and they'll understand this turn more easily.

 

Not an instructor here, just my $.01!

 

 

post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateteachski View Post


I'm confused by your thought process Vince. Can you clarify for me? Are you saying that how Michael skis the bumps is also how you ski the groomers i.e. you flex at edge transition and extend through the shaping phase of the turn or are you saying that you, in the bumps, extend at edge transition and flex through the shaping phase and that is what you are seeing Michael do?

 

While I'll agree that, "push your skis out," is not the best phrase, I beleive, what Michael is saying is that you need to actively push you feet to maintain ski to snow contact on the backside of a mogul.


What I am trying to get at is that I don't see him doing what he is saying to do.  Just to use it as an example again from 1:17 - 1:25 you can see Micheal extending to change edges and flexing at the end of the turn (when he is absorbing the mogul).  In the video though he says "In the bumps flex your joints to start the turn and extend them .... through the finish of the turn." 

 

 

I agree with all the other stuff he says, but I am just not quite sure about that part.  

 

It is possible that he just phrased it in a way that I don't understand.  But I just want to understand what he means by that because I don't really see that movement in bump skiing... well at least not in good bump skiing. 


Edited by VinceK - 2/22/12 at 7:19am
post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceK View Post


What I am trying to get at is that I don't see him doing what he is saying to do.  Just to use it as an example again from 1:17 - 1:25 you can see Micheal extending to change edges and flexing at the end of the turn (when he is absorbing the mogul).  In the video though he says "In the bumps flex your joints to start the turn and extend them .... through the finish of the turn." 

 

 

I agree with all the other stuff he says, but I am just not quite sure about that part.  

 

It is possible that he just phrased it in a way that I don't understand.  But I just want to understand what he means by that because I don't really see that movement in bump skiing... well at least not in good bump skiing. 


Its clear to me, you have to reference it to they way he skis on the groomer. He extends or uplifts in the transition of the turn. That type of turn is opposite of how he turns in the bumps.

 


 

 

post #9 of 21

It is often stated that the key to bump skiing is owning a rock solid quick short turn. Quick turns require flexion/retraction to release so IMO it doesn't make sense to compare a slow GS turn with rise in transition to bump skiing with quick short turns. Two different animals.

post #10 of 21

Michael Rogan is an awesome, talented skier.

 

What I'm going to say has nothing to do with that or in any way a slam against his knowledge.

 

What you are seeing here is the perspective of how to ski bumps from a ski instructor instead of those views of a mogul specific expert such as Chuck Martin or a Nelson Carmichael.

 

Some similar but mostly different views. And it all really depends on how you approach mogul skiing. Do you want to ski moguls or do you really want to ski moguls like a mogul skier?

 

JMHO

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceK View Post


What I am trying to get at is that I don't see him doing what he is saying to do.  Just to use it as an example again from 1:17 - 1:25 


 

Good eye Vince!
 
Sometimes the problem with making things simple to understand is that you over simplify. My take on this is that Michael is talking about the 
prevalence of using "retraction" turns in the bumps. A retraction turn starts when both legs are pulled underneath the body as opposed to a 
normal turn where the upper body moves over the feet to get to the inside of the next turn. Sometimes the difference seems to be just a matter 
of perspective. This can be especially true if you get strict about considering the start of a turn to be when the ski is flat on the snow. 
If you consider the start of the turn to be when the ski stops turning more in the other direction, then the section of the clip you reference
(1:117-1:25) does indeed show turns that start with a retraction (in this case an "absorption") move. If you consider the turn to start at edge
change, then it starts with an extension move.
 
I think these kinds of clips generate 3 kinds of reactions:
"HUH?" (doesn't make sense at all)
"D'oh!" (intuitively understood no matter what the words actually say)
"Aha!" (that's something new I can add to my skiing)
The beauty of generating this kind of stuff is that someone gets an aha from every clip and eventually everyone gets an "aha" from at least one
of these "conflicting" clips.
 
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Michael Rogan is an awesome, talented skier.

What I'm going to say has nothing to do with that or in any way a slam against his knowledge.

What you are seeing here is the perspective of how to ski bumps from a ski instructor instead of those views of a mogul specific expert such as Chuck Martin or a Nelson Carmichael.

Some similar but mostly different views. And it all really depends on how you approach mogul skiing. Do you want to ski moguls or do you really want to ski moguls like a mogul skier?

JMHO

That might be a little over-simple -- here's why: it assumes there are only 2 "valid" or "legitimate" ways of skiing bumps, that of "a ski instructor" and that of "a mogul skier."

I'm pretty sure I get what you mean with each over-generalized category, but you should be willing to accept that the Pro Mogul Skier (i.e. Jonny Moseley) method of skiing bumps is only one high-level path through any bump field, and generally is most applicable in the machine-made perfect-sized bump fields of bump comps. It's also a type of bump skiing that tends to be limited to the very young, very athletic and very strong (strong skills and body strength alike) skier.

The "ski instructor" method you describe seems narrow because I have seen all kinds of bump skiing from ski instructors -- some fluid, some a small notch above bare survival, lots in between. All kinds of lines too, but mostly a radically softened, very-slowed-down version of what Moseley would do. Which suggests there's not such a great difference between a Mogul Pro and a Teaching Pro at a general level.

I ski a variable line in the bumps and wouldn't categorize myself as skiing them anything like "ski instructor" or "mogul pro" style. I would not hesitate to suggest my line/tactics to any upper-level skier who currently limits him/herself to "ski instructor" or "mogul pro" line/tactic choices. My lines and tactics include a fair amount of absorption transition, and very very little time in the troughs. Part of my bump skiing comes from working with a talented PSIA person and what he taught me; an equal part comes from following a friend down steep bump runs. This friend is an excellent skier, grew up running gates and switched to telemark gear a long time ago. He skis a blend of alpine and telemark turns. What I learned from him isn't turning specifically, but how and where to turn and how to manage the irregularities of a bump field. He's not a PSIA guy, hasn't ever taught skiing even informally. Just a good skier.

Tactics are a huge part of mogul skiing and nobody should be advancing the idea that zipperline is the only legitimate or high-level tactic/line, unless we're talking bump comps.
post #13 of 21

I work with several ex pro bumpers who are currently ski instructors. So yes a competetive style can be different, or the same as what they teach. Even Rogan's skiing changes with intent, so classifying his bump technique as good, or bad isn't that easy. If the intent matches the outcome all is well. When it doesn't we have to search for the reason why that didn't occur. That being said highly variable terrain eliminates the possibility of always doing a turn one way. So even though Rogan speaks about ILE verses OLF, neither truely occur in isolation. So give him a little wiggle room and stop thinking in such a black and white way. Use your whole bag of tricks when you face variable terrain. Just like Rogan does. 

post #14 of 21

I think of it as describing the movement pattern for just one mogul.

 I have heard others use the "down then up" movement pattern to better explain mogul turns.

 

We come into the shoulder/rut, absorb (ie down movement),

 ride over the crest, then extend (up) to maintain ski to snow contact

 

Contrast with a intermediate turn or wedge turn:

  move up** to flatten the ski, and allow the tips to drop into the fall line

 then move flex to manage the pressure as the skis are directed across the hill.

 

up**   not trying to propose old school up movements for initiation

          but we do want to flatten the ski, so whatever movements facilitate that: up / forward / foragonal.   (not down in any case)

 

As TheRusty points out:

 

This can be especially true if you get strict about considering the start of a turn to be when the ski is flat on the snow. 
If you consider the start of the turn to be when the ski stops turning more in the other direction, then the section of the clip you reference
(1:117-1:25) does indeed show turns that start with a retraction (in this case an "absorption") move. If you consider the turn to start at edge
change, then it starts with an extension move.
 

 

In mogul skiing it is (at least to me) more natural to think of the turn as starting going into the mogul, ie down then up

 

when you slide into that first mogul mogul field, the first move would typically be "down".  especially if your are zipperlining.

post #15 of 21

I get a chuckle at the irony of the some of the post so far.... IMO, lars needs some slack as well. Its clear to some that have posted that they also see differences in the way Rogan skis the bumps and the way a "pro" bumper skis them. Exactly what Lars said, yet I don't read anwhere in Lar's post that said its the wrong or right way or better yet filled with offensive or defensive movements.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Michael Rogan is an awesome, talented skier.

 

What I'm going to say has nothing to do with that or in any way a slam against his knowledge.

 

What you are seeing here is the perspective of how to ski bumps from a ski instructor instead of those views of a mogul specific expert such as Chuck Martin or a Nelson Carmichael.

 

Some similar but mostly different views. And it all really depends on how you approach mogul skiing. Do you want to ski moguls or do you really want to ski moguls like a mogul skier?

 

JMHO



 

post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

I get a chuckle at the irony of the some of the post so far.... IMO, lars needs some slack as well. Its clear to some that have posted that they also see differences in the way Rogan skis the bumps and the way a "pro" bumper skis them. Exactly what Lars said, yet I don't read anwhere in Lar's post that said its the wrong or right way or better yet filled with offensive or defensive movements.

Which posts are you talking about here?
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

I get a chuckle at the irony of the some of the post so far.... IMO, lars needs some slack as well. Its clear to some that have posted that they also see differences in the way Rogan skis the bumps and the way a "pro" bumper skis them. Exactly what Lars said, yet I don't read anwhere in Lar's post that said its the wrong or right way or better yet filled with offensive or defensive movements.

 



 



That's because I don't believe there's a "right" or a "wrong" way to ski moguls. Just a preferred way by some. Rogan's instruction is fine if that's the way you want to ski moguls. Some prefer a more direct zipper line method. It's all in the the ability level of the skier depending upon conditions and line chosen.

 

Where's the "Irony" in that?

 

post #18 of 21

Yeah, I thought what Lars said was pretty clear.

 

I think in context the Rogan clip is also pretty clear...the key is remembering context.  The advice to use a solid, blocking pole plant, for instance, might not be something all would give, but in the context of what his audience is, I'm not sure I can get worked up over it.

 

Same for his saying a flat ski is better than an edged ski in bumps.  Taken too literally, you could accuse him of advocating flatboarding, which lasted about 3 seconds as a bump fad, but it's not really what he's saying. 

 

I would disagree with the statements that you need to be particularly young or fit to ski bumps with a technique optimized for the environment, but I do agree that anyone seriously looking to a Rogan youtube clip for bump advice probably is a different audience from someone at a dedicated bump camp.  That's not a knock on the Rogan clip at all -- imagine if he advocated the vacationing 10 day a year crowd seek out rollers, etc., etc., that would have been stupid.  Tennis instructors do the same thing as far as "detuning" advice, so do golf instructors. 

post #19 of 21

I think Rogan's on to something.  Flexion and extension is all about pressure management.  Bumps add or subtract huge amounts of pressure depending  on your speed and on which part of the bump you are on.  the timing of your flexion and extension changes because you need to manage the pressure changes caused by the bumps.  If you look at the length of you legs as you turn, they look may look completely different in bumps as compared to skiing groomers, but the pressure under your feet in any phase of the turn is the same in groomers or bumps, because the timing of your flexion and extension is different.   I think that's what Rogan is trying to get at.

 

BK

post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

I think Rogan's on to something.  Flexion and extension is all about pressure management.  Bumps add or subtract huge amounts of pressure depending  on your speed and on which part of the bump you are on.  the timing of your flexion and extension changes because you need to manage the pressure changes caused by the bumps.  If you look at the length of you legs as you turn, they look may look completely different in bumps as compared to skiing groomers, but the pressure under your feet in any phase of the turn is the same in groomers or bumps, because the timing of your flexion and extension is different.   I think that's what Rogan is trying to get at.

 

BK


Talking about pressure is a thought-provoking way to go...I hadn't been thinking in those terms until your post as regard Rogan's vid.  I think where you feel pressure in bumps depends a lot on turn shape.  I do think if you are skiing, or riding, the bumps with a fairly direct line, max pressure can be at a bit later point than groomer carving.  This is one aspect of the fact that the "virtual bump" and actual bumps aren't quite the same. 
 

 

post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceK View Post

 

I also feel that by saying flex you skis at the beginning of the turn and then push your skis out makes it sound like a very defensive strategy to skiing moguls.  


Those aren't bumps he's skiing.  They're piles of snow.  I see that maybe 1~2x/season here in the Northeast.  That said... his technique makes perfect sense to me.  I never got the hang of getting a good rhythm in the bumps and when I was younger I used to just try to blast right through them,  Now that I'm middle aged, I'm feeling a little more mortal and am trying to ski more defensively.  Most of the bumps I ski are just icy troughs and peaks with snow piled on top.  The technique I've been practicing absorbing the bump on the uphill side as I initiate the turn and complete the turn on the downhill side by extending and aggressively driving my body over the skis to get into position to absorb the next bump.  Definitely defensive but I want to develop the skills that'll allow me to ski the bumps for another 20 years under all conditions.

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