or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Après-Ski › Catching "third edge" when moving slowly and angulating alot... more boot/alignment issue, or technique?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Catching "third edge" when moving slowly and angulating alot... more boot/alignment issue, or technique?

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 

Hello Instructors,

 

I have noticed that occasionally if I am moving very slowly on flatting terrain, and want to make a tight turn, the third edge (uphill edge of inside ski) sometimes catches.  Also, in general, I have noticed studying my POV footage that my inside ski is often more tilted than my outside ski, which leads me to believe I may need canting.

 

Should I invest 160 dollars in boot-planing, or is this technique?  On both skis it is way easier to passively switch energy to the outside of the skis than the inside.  I don't know if this is bad alignment or the inverted hinge position in my boots.  Particularly in a right turn, I feel I have to tilt the ankles way over.

 

Caveat:  This does NOT happen if I am hauling ass, moving fast on steep terrain (where things are as smooth as pancakes).  Maybe skis in question just have limitations at slow speed and flattish terrain?

 

I would both greatly appreciate advice on whether or not I am a candidate for canting, and also some drills I can do to improve balance (both on-skis and in gym)

post #2 of 63
Speed hides lots of issues, Vitamin. See someone knowledgeable for an alignment. If you do something well, you can do it at any speed.
post #3 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Speed hides lots of issues, Vitamin. See someone knowledgeable for an alignment. If you do something well, you can do it at any speed.


So are you saying I need canting?

 

And actually, certain skis are designed to be used at high speeds, and not low ones.

post #4 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



So are you saying I need canting?

 

And actually, certain skis are designed to be used at high speeds, and not low ones.


Listen to Kneale. He's absolutely spot on in post #2. How many videos of WC skiers doing slow drills do you need to see to understand that any ski can go slow even if it's designed to go fast? Stop rationalizing and blaming skis when the issue has always been the driver and poorly fitting boots. We used to do slow one and two foot drills on 223 DH skis, and no, they weren't special 'go slow' DH skis.  And again, more evidence of boot problems that could have been resolved months ago. In the end, you've wasted a good bit of your season struggling with issues that you've identified yourself, yet just can't seem to spend about 2 -3 days worth of lift ticket money to resolve. My guess is you need both boot grinding + shimming, and work on technique. Most of us do. Without seeing you ski in person (or in a lot of video) over time, you're not going to get any more than general advice.

 


Edited by markojp - 2/21/12 at 8:47am
post #5 of 63
Thread Starter 

So in post 1 I've identified a problem with my skiing.

 

Post two posts the riveting advice:  "You have a problem."!!!!!!!!!

 

Holy crap!  Isn't that why I started the thread?

 

 

If anybody can give me advice on drills to do, that would be helpful.

 

Also, I want to know if I need canting before going in because the shop WILL do it to collect money from me whether or not I need it.

post #6 of 63

Those are some pretty big letters there VS. What is it about, "See someone knowledgeable for an alignment." that's hard to understand? Look, some very talented people have been telling you same thing for months, and for months, you've been looking for the half-arsed do it yourself duct tape fix. First, tell us what YOU think about the differences between canting and grinding/shimming and why. There are no drills to correct poor alignment. Slow speed drills tend to highlight alignment issues, and that's part of their value. People have been incredibly patient trying to help you here. You've spent months rationalizing not getting a lesson or seeing a boot fitter. If it's just raw economics, then that's fine. If you want help and don't have the dough, then post a bunch of videos and not just POV. They don't tell enough to judge much of anything specific. Yes, it's going to leave you feeling pretty skiddish, but that's the price you pay. Not all help you'll get here is equal, but you'll find that the most knowledgeable voices will be pretty much in agreement on what needs to be done.

post #7 of 63
Thread Starter 

Unlike grinding/punching/buying new liners, I'm worried about sole-planing, because that is PERMANENT.

 

I barely have the dough (and maybe not) this, year, but if I was able to, I'd just want to be sure it's worth the investment.

 

 

 

Another note:  I've seen two separate fitters in two different states who had me stand on a piece of lumber and told me my alignment was fine... I thought to check alignment you had to stand on one of those machines with two planks, no?

post #8 of 63

 

The boot fitter hasn't seen you ski. Standing on the floor or a piece of lumber isn't likely to tell you much. Again, post video, both free skiing and doing drills. One foot traverses (one on the up hill leg, one on the downhill, both directions for a total of 4) and skating (make sure you glide on one foot in the transition) reveal much about alignment issues. No POV. WIthout seeing you ski, we're all only speculating.
 

 

post #9 of 63

I think just about everybody is a candidate for canting...  The number of people who have legs of the same length and naturally aligned leg bones has got to be pretty small.

 

The cheap route is to put duct tape on the soles of your ski boots.  I used duct tape in 1/4th width of the original roll.  Two strips of duct tape = 0.5 degrees of canting.  I skied with about 1.5 degrees (six strips) of duct tape on my boots for months last season without blowing out of my bindings.

 

As for how-to-determine alignment.  The last three sets of ski boots I've had were aligned in three different ways.  One of them was royally messed up; the other two seem to have worked (although they came up with different "cures").  I think alignment success is more due to the guy doing it than whatever method he is using.

post #10 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Hello Instructors,

 

I have noticed that occasionally if I am moving very slowly on flatting terrain, and want to make a tight turn, the third edge (uphill edge of inside ski) sometimes catches.  Also, in general, I have noticed studying my POV footage that my inside ski is often more tilted than my outside ski, which leads me to believe I may need canting.

 

Should I invest 160 dollars in boot-planing, or is this technique?  On both skis it is way easier to passively switch energy to the outside of the skis than the inside.  I don't know if this is bad alignment or the inverted hinge position in my boots.  Particularly in a right turn, I feel I have to tilt the ankles way over.

 

Caveat:  This does NOT happen if I am hauling ass, moving fast on steep terrain (where things are as smooth as pancakes).  Maybe skis in question just have limitations at slow speed and flattish terrain?

 

I would both greatly appreciate advice on whether or not I am a candidate for canting, and also some drills I can do to improve balance (both on-skis and in gym)



I have seen video of you skiing.

 

you are not balanced on your outside skis and tend to turn though banking, fix this and you will fix your problem....

 

 

post #11 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post



I have seen video of you skiing.

 

you are not balanced on your outside skis and tend to turn though banking, fix this and you will fix your problem....

 

 



Is there specific yet basic advice you can give me to increase lateral balance?

post #12 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



Is there specific yet basic advice you can give me to increase lateral balance?



ski on your outside foot with your inside tip on the ground thought out a round turn. Do it on green terrain. If you want real help take video and post it up of you doing this....or not doing this. You tip too fast for your current lateral balance and tend to leave your outside ski behind. 

 

after you master that you can really master how far you can tip and how fast with the Up and over drill. Take note in this video Mikela is balanced on just her little toe edge before tipping on to her big toe edge. You can not fake this drill you can either do it or not do it. Its also not all that hard I taught this to a 11 kid who has skied for 6 days today. It worked beautifully to get him to tip down the hill with out "losing" his outside ski. 

 

 

another great drill to do is this, and it can be combined with the "up and over"

 

 

Knowing what I know though. practice one footed skiing, then practice the up and over. These are not going to be easy and with a good coach there is as much to be learned from your failure as there is in your success.

post #13 of 63
Thread Starter 

I don't have trouble doing the first drill... but if I'm moving too slowly I topple over.

 

I've been skiing on one leg, but only for a few runs with each leg, do I need to do more?

 

BTW, I sent you PM with my 3rd person video footage.

post #14 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

I don't have trouble doing the first drill... but if I'm moving too slowly I topple over.

 

I've been skiing on one leg, but only for a few runs with each leg, do I need to do more?

 

BTW, I sent you PM with my 3rd person video footage.



well I would figure out why you topple over when moveing to slowly. With that video I have better gauge of what is going on. 

 

You need to move forward with your outside ski as you tip it especially when moving slowly. You then need to build counter and angualtions to keep your balance on that ski. Your should be able to do this at 1 mph to 50 mph to truly master it.  

 

Do the first drill with a focus of driving you inside hip forward and up as you tip. Some ideas to accomplish this...

 

ski without poles and drive your inside hand forward though the turn, this normally causes the entire inside half to lead.

ski with poles and drag you OUTSIDE pole on the snow as you balance on your outside ski

 

you need to these things until its permanent and you have no other movement pattern that you can ever recall. 

 

post #15 of 63

I heard you could cant your boots with a blow torch?....

post #16 of 63

Third edge? The only way the lateral edge could possibly be a "third" edge is if a wedge is occuring. (Oppositional edge usage verses corresponding edge usage) Are you wedging while moving slow? (more than likely since even experts have trouble avoiding a wedge while moving that slow). So don't dispair. If you have seen a boot fitter and they told you the boots are not the problem, what is realistically left except pilot error? Planing doesn't fix that.

 

 

post #17 of 63

Beyond that Kneale is correct that higher speeds often masks our perception of subtle things that are occurring all the time. Strip away the distractions by working on very shallow terrain and at very slow speeds. Excessive tipping from any lateral movement (inclinating / angulating) will engage the lateral edge. If that's the "catching an edge" sensation you are feeling, then the solution is to explore how little edge you can use to produce the desired outcome. Side slips on very shallow terrain is the easiest way to explore these near flat skiing and releasing skills.

 

post #18 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Third edge? The only way the lateral edge could possibly be a "third" edge is if a wedge is occuring. (Oppositional edge usage verses corresponding edge usage) Are you wedging while moving slow? (more than likely since even experts have trouble avoiding a wedge while moving that slow). So don't dispair. If you have seen a boot fitter and they told you the boots are not the problem, what is realistically left except pilot error? Planing doesn't fix that.

 

 



I just wasn't sure if I had to stand on one of those machines with the two platforms and measurement instruments.  Maybe alignment is the problem, maybe not, but I would like to make sure I got adequate diagnosis of that.

 

As far as your second post, this happened when I tried to turn a 27 meter ski through a flat part of a race course with SL-spacing and huge offset.  I couldn't bend the skis at those speeds, so I had to tip them to reduce the radius... tipping too much and I felt the uphill ski's uphill edge catch.

 

I'm low on finances so don't think I'll do planing even if I need it this year, so I'll be left to doing drills on the bunny hill.  One-ski skiing, and Josh's outside-pole drags.

post #19 of 63
Thread Starter 

JASP, if I PM you my recent 3rd person video, would you be able to do a basic analysis?

post #20 of 63
VS,

I was never able to open that link to the video you sent me so this is just a guess but... do your bindings show a lot of lateral play?

One cause of "tripping" over edges can be a loose (or highly flexible) connection between boot and binding. A while back I used to trip over the downhill edge of my inside-ski quite a lot. Everyone said it was a technique issue - but no advice produced a cure.

One investigative day I put the boot in the binding with the ski on a wood floor and levered it back and forth (sideways) to find I had +/- 5 degrees of very loose play either way. At slow speeds with skis nearly 'flat' to the snow I had no real control of that 10-degree range so at any moment the downhill edge might suddenly engage (on either ski actually). Many times I tripped over the downhill edge of the downhill-ski - or the inside edge of the uphill-ski would catch.

The bindings had no adjustment so I tried several layers of tape on the AFD and it helped greatly. I replaced the tape by adding a thin layer of epoxy to the top of the toe-tab and later replaced the toe-piece itself with adjustable Solomons and that worked even better. I now carefully check all bindings for a precise fit with my boots before using them.

At slow speeds we need precise edge control and any looseness of binding or boot will contribute to surprise changes in actual edge-angle as any little undulation in the surface might cause a sudden shift in edge-angle.

Of course, as Bud unspokenly suggests, you could use a blow torch to heat up the boot-lugs and then step into the bindings. If gooey enough, this process will mold them to an exact fit with your bindings... biggrin.gif (Of course, they may never release again - but that's another problem... smile.gif )


.ma
post #21 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

VS,
I was never able to open that link to the video you sent me so this is just a guess but... do your bindings show a lot of lateral play?
One cause of "tripping" over edges can be a loose (or highly flexible) connection between boot and binding. A while back I used to trip over the downhill edge of my inside-ski quite a lot. Everyone said it was a technique issue - but no advice produced a cure.
One investigative day I put the boot in the binding with the ski on a wood floor and levered it back and forth (sideways) to find I had +/- 5 degrees of very loose play either way. At slow speeds with skis nearly 'flat' to the snow I had no real control of that 10-degree range so at any moment the downhill edge might suddenly engage (on either ski actually). Many times I tripped over the downhill edge of the downhill-ski - or the inside edge of the uphill-ski would catch.
The bindings had no adjustment so I tried several layers of tape on the AFD and it helped greatly. I replaced the tape by adding a thin layer of epoxy to the top of the toe-tab and later replaced the toe-piece itself with adjustable Solomons and that worked even better. I now carefully check all bindings for a precise fit with my boots before using them.
At slow speeds we need precise edge control and any looseness of binding or boot will contribute to surprise changes in actual edge-angle as any little undulation in the surface might cause a sudden shift in edge-angle.
Of course, as Bud unspokenly suggests, you could use a blow torch to heat up the boot-lugs and then step into the bindings. If gooey enough, this process will mold them to an exact fit with your bindings... :D (Of course, they may never release again - but that's another problem... :) )
.ma


This is interesting... I have Marker Comp 16.0's, and the toe-piece initially had MASSIVE play (notably up-down, but also side-to-side); the screw came loose, and I took the bindings back to the shop and they tightened them.  They are now tight, still have built-in up-down instability (somewhat), but appear to be fairly sturdy.  I have the option of having them glue in the screws if it doesn't meet my liking, so we'll see.  I think it is interesting because this problem I describe was much worse when the toe pieces were loose, and got a little better when they were tightened.

 

I have a Flowflex binding which is rock-solid, a Railflex which is laterally loose, and a system Marker which is slightly better.

 

Another thing is that my boot lugs are getting worn from 50 days of walking in parking lots, on gravel, cement, lodges, etc.

 

post #22 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Another thing is that my boot lugs are getting worn from 50 days of walking in parking lots, on gravel, cement, lodges, etc.

 


VS, you need something like this:

 

http://www.backcountry.com/yaktrax-skitrax-boot-protection

 

$12 to protect your investment. 

 

post #23 of 63

roflmao.gifroflmao.gifroflmao.gif

 

 

post #24 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Beyond that Kneale is correct that higher speeds often masks our perception of subtle things that are occurring all the time. Strip away the distractions by working on very shallow terrain and at very slow speeds. Excessive tipping from any lateral movement (inclinating / angulating) will engage the lateral edge. If that's the "catching an edge" sensation you are feeling, then the solution is to explore how little edge you can use to produce the desired outcome. Side slips on very shallow terrain is the easiest way to explore these near flat skiing and releasing skills.

 



If downhill traffic will allow you to do traverses (beware of being run down--it can become painful), try aiming your tips at some fixed object across the slope and then traversing to that object while leaving two edge marks.
post #25 of 63

VS, sounds like the boots are toast and bending the race ski to make them do a sl turn is a little odd considering a blended turn would produce that shorter turn without all the extra tipping. Still sounds to me like your lateral balance is off a bit. Might be the bindings, might not. Not sure. Send me a PM vid and I'll take a look. If it's hard to open here @ epic please send it to skicoach@live.com

post #26 of 63
Thread Starter 

Much thanks to the three people who helped me via PM.

 

Will the drills be best-done on my 66mm race skis, or is it OK to take out a 90mm ski and do the drills (if snow conditions and enjoyment dictate the wider ski choice (and probably will for most of rest of season))?

post #27 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Much thanks to the three people who helped me via PM.

 

Will the drills be best-done on my 66mm race skis, or is it OK to take out a 90mm ski and do the drills (if snow conditions and enjoyment dictate the wider ski choice (and probably will for most of rest of season))?



it will not really matter. Balance on the outside sideski is universal. I have everything and really can do it on all of my skis. 

post #28 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post

It will not really matter. Balance on the outside sideski is universal. I have everything and really can do it on all of my skis. 

It matters to some of us when on hardpack. Fatter skis put more cantilevered pressure on my arthritic right knee's bone-to-bone sore spot. I find it lots easier to balance when skiing one-footed on the outside edge at slower speeds when I'm on a race ski or anything up to around 90mm underfoot, but happiest on race skis and others at 80mm or narrower. It's not about my absence or presence of athleticism or balance. And I've read comments by others who say similar things. Probably mostly older, somewhat-broken skiers.
post #29 of 63
Thread Starter 

JASP is amazing; he has given me a simple drill to do, and my hips have opened up, and I have felt stabilized during turns.

 

The thing is, skiing with my arms forward (like I am trying to push a fridge down the hill) is a little awkward/not enjoyable.  The skiing is superb, but consciously holding my arms there is a PITA.

 

Ummm, is this something I need to do all the time, or just for a few "training" runs each time I ski?

post #30 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

JASP is amazing; he has given me a simple drill to do, and my hips have opened up, and I have felt stabilized during turns.

 

The thing is, skiing with my arms forward (like I am trying to push a fridge down the hill) is a little awkward/not enjoyable.  The skiing is superb, but consciously holding my arms there is a PITA.

 

Ummm, is this something I need to do all the time, or just for a few "training" runs each time I ski?



A fridge? I prefer to think of my hands forward as being on a lady friends hips, much more enjoyable.....wink.gif

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Après-Ski
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Après-Ski › Catching "third edge" when moving slowly and angulating alot... more boot/alignment issue, or technique?