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When you are leading ....

post #1 of 37
2/15/12 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 

DON'T  mess up!

 

example: don't lead me over rocks, I can find those on my own.

 

elaborate pls.


Edited by davluri - 2/15/12 at 6:25pm
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post #2 of 37
2/15/12 at 11:51pm

When I'm skiing with relatives I have a standing "don't follow me" rule:  If I duck off the trail or head off towards the bumps don't follow me.  It will only end in an argument at the lodge.  This rule has been essential in preserving my marriage.

 

 

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post #3 of 37
2/16/12 at 12:15am

Mr Nobody was smart enough not to follow me through the woods a couple seasons back. He navigated his way through the trees to safety. I was forced to jump over a cliff. 

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post #4 of 37
2/16/12 at 2:27am

I thought the leader was supposed to serve as an example (good or bad). If he/she finds something that looks nice, you follow the same line. If you here unpleasant sounds or see awkward movements, then you take a different line.

 

It's nicer to learn from others' mistakes than making them yourself and learning the hard way.

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post #5 of 37
2/16/12 at 3:33am

When leading less-skilled skiers on-piste (meaning staying on the trail map), you need to pay attention to those little coloured trial markers at the side of trail.  You know those green circles , blue squares and black diamonds that you have been ignoring for years.  I've learned that if you accidently lead someone down a trail with the wrong type of sign on the side of it, they get upset.  Who knew?th_dunno-1[1].gif

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post #6 of 37
2/16/12 at 3:43am

This reminds me of a story I heard a few years ago, I don't want to tell it wrong, so I'll keep it short. Vail. One guy is following other guy, closely, first guy hucks cliff, second guy follows. First guy crashes, 2nd guy lands on first guy and gets 1st guys pole stuck through his face. I'm sure somebody on this board knows who I am talking about as these were industry people. 2nd guy had pole go through bottom of mouth and out by his ear. Ouch.

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post #7 of 37
2/16/12 at 7:13am
Thread Starter 

Sometimes it's hard to discourage your "tail". I have a new tactic: make a dumb call. Hey, I'm gonna' hit shirley bowl, want to come.  nah, we'll catch you later. yeah, see ya'. Let them dissipate and head for sibo instead.

 

Here's a technical point of following. follow too far back and you may miss subtle leads that are essential to make the line. If you're unsure, you hang back too far, and can go wrong.

 

Cyclists have this lead thing really carefully worked out, due to the leader being the eyes for the whole group. It is established that when leading you will ride with an extra measure of caution. You MUST make it through, and with a margin for safety.

 

 

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post #8 of 37
2/16/12 at 7:24am

I can't count how many skiers/friends that followed me got hurt. Now I ski alone for the most part,no hard feelings that way.

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post #9 of 37
2/16/12 at 6:19pm

Are the two most dangerous words in skiing "follow me" or "watch this"?

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post #10 of 37
2/16/12 at 8:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

Are the two most dangerous words in skiing "follow me" or "watch this"?



preceded by "hold my beer..."

 

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post #11 of 37
2/16/12 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

Are the two most dangerous words in skiing "follow me" or "watch this"?


I thought that they were the three most dangerous words in skiing. "Follow me Dad."

 

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post #12 of 37
2/16/12 at 9:59pm

When you are leading...

 

Look back occasionally to see if the terrain swallowed any of your charges.

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post #13 of 37
2/16/12 at 11:05pm

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

Are the two most dangerous words in skiing "follow me" or "watch this"?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

preceded by "hold my beer ..."

 

 

roflmao.gif
 

 

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post #14 of 37
2/16/12 at 11:15pm

I'll take another tack.  I'd prefer not to have a "leader" who stops at every fork in the road and democratically asks everyone in the group which way they would like to go.  If you're leading, lead.  Sure, you need to be aware of the capabilities of the group.  You don't want to end up on a manky, refrozen black run with someone sideslipping the whole slope in terror (or hiking down the hill) before they head to the bar (head directly to the bar ... do not pass 'Go').  But, if you're the leader, and you know the gang, then give them something to follow.

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post #15 of 37
2/16/12 at 11:21pm

In the trees it is a good idea to not have a leader and to instead switch positions fairly often (as in seconds, not minutes) so that you don't accidently lose the "follower" in a tree well and not notice it for a minute or two.

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post #16 of 37
2/17/12 at 3:07am

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

DON'T  mess up!

 

example: don't lead me over rocks, I can find those on my own.

 

elaborate pls.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xela View Post

When you are leading...

 

Look back occasionally to see if the terrain swallowed any of your charges.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve2222 View Post

In the trees it is a good idea to not have a leader and to instead switch positions fairly often (as in seconds, not minutes) so that you don't accidently lose the "follower" in a tree well and not notice it for a minute or two.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinbad7 View Post

I'll take another tack.  I'd prefer not to have a "leader" who stops at every fork in the road and democratically asks everyone in the group which way they would like to go.  If you're leading, lead.  Sure, you need to be aware of the capabilities of the group.  You don't want to end up on a manky, refrozen black run with someone sideslipping the whole slope in terror (or hiking down the hill) before they head to the bar (head directly to the bar ... do not pass 'Go').  But, if you're the leader, and you know the gang, then give them something to follow.


Jokes aside, There are some good ideas here for the people leading at Gatherings..East and West. icon14.gif

 

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post #17 of 37
2/17/12 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

 

 

 

 


Jokes aside, There are some good ideas here for the people leading at Gatherings..East and West. icon14.gif

 


it also a good idea for people to have open minds. The leaders are doing this on their own time, trying to have fun with groups. There are times when we can not accurately predict what the slope is going to be like.

 

At the bird I was tasked during the epic gathering to be leading 30 people of different ability levels on a 2 foot powder day some who follow the stupid advice that powder can be skied on carvers(it can if you know your awesome but if your following advice on the internet your not awesome). Me leading with Bob and harkin tail gunning kept that entire group together for half the day. After that most were spent anyways it then went from what can we get the group down to what can we challenge ourselves on as 5 epic guys wailed on the steeps of the bird. It was pretty funny in the morning to watch run run after run get tracked out by one group.

 

With that said the group leader can not control the weather and they can not control people's emotional state and people are expected to know their limits and speak up if they do not feel comfortable. 

 

 

 

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post #18 of 37
2/17/12 at 5:21am

Without getting things too complicated, first rule is to K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid.)

 

Step 1. Give a short spiel about group dynamics.

Step 2. Count noses at the start of a run.

Step 3. Select terrain that the weakest link in the chain can safely and enjoyably negotiate.

Step 4. Count noses at the end of the run, then listen to feedback from the cats that you've been herding.

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post #19 of 37
2/17/12 at 6:15am

Oh yeah, you also have to remember that it's sometimes a long, hard road to get to the good stuff.

 

For example, last month in Austria I was in a guided group on a storm day. Our guide took us to the top of the mountain and across a blue piste against the wind in whiteout conditions. We could hardly see each other and were starting to question the his sanity (why not just go back into the trees?). Eventually, we found a bowl with waist-deep snow, good visibility, and only a couple of tracks. We ended up doing the same bowl three more times after that.

 

We had similar situations on the bluebird days involving rocks, grass, mud, and sun-baked ice. All were unavoidable obstacles on the path to the goodies.

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post #20 of 37
2/17/12 at 6:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzer View Post

Without getting things too complicated, first rule is to K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid.)

 

Step 1. Give a short spiel about group dynamics.

Step 2. Count noses at the start of a run.

Step 3. Select terrain that the weakest link in the chain can safely and enjoyably negotiate.

Step 4. Count noses at the end of the run, then listen to feedback from the cats that you've been herding.

Nailed It!

 

You've been to a lot of well organized gatherings with good guides.  I look forward to spending time with you at the Tahoe Gathering. 


 

 

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post #21 of 37
2/17/12 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post


it also a good idea for people to have open minds. The leaders are doing this on their own time, trying to have fun with groups. There are times when we can not accurately predict what the slope is going to be like.

 

At the bird I was tasked during the epic gathering to be leading 30 people of different ability levels on a 2 foot powder day some who follow the stupid advice that powder can be skied on carvers(it can if you know your awesome but if your following advice on the internet your not awesome). Me leading with Bob and harkin tail gunning kept that entire group together for half the day. After that most were spent anyways it then went from what can we get the group down to what can we challenge ourselves on as 5 epic guys wailed on the steeps of the bird. It was pretty funny in the morning to watch run run after run get tracked out by one group.

 

With that said the group leader can not control the weather and they can not control people's emotional state and people are expected to know their limits and speak up if they do not feel comfortable. 

 

 

 


Very true, this is where communication is key with the group as far as conditions. weather and expectations. Again good points added. I think we can start a simple "10 (-15) points of guiding".

 

A meet a lunch gives the chance of regrouping with other grouse for attendees looking for more or less adventure. 

 

Bazzer has some good points too.icon14.gif

 

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post #22 of 37
2/17/12 at 7:12am
Thread Starter 

There is alternate leading in your small posse. There is showing a friend a line and leading it for a few minutes. There is guiding. All slightly different.

 

my favorite group size, led alternately by the skiers in the posse is three or four. max. Josh mentioned an epic group of 30? How is that usually set up? I think a guided group would be ideal at about 12.

 

I was showing a guy that I don't know real well into a tricky chute. It involved a scary traverse with a fall line section requiring some precise check turns then an off camber track over washboard with no room to check speed. really tricky. the man fell too far behind, didn't follow my line, made a wrong turn, fell and ended up with his skis wedged between a giant boulder and a small tree, his body hanging  upside down below his skis in a narrow 45* gorge with a 40' cliff below. I was like: are you kidding me??

 

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post #23 of 37
2/17/12 at 9:03pm

I think it is a good idea when leading to also designate a strong skier to sweep.  Keep the lesser skilled skiers in the middle.  The sweeper goes last and keeps an eye on the group from the rear and is available to help if needed.  We will often switch off leadng and sweeping.  Keeps the group interesting.

 

Rick G

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post #24 of 37
2/18/12 at 10:22am
Thread Starter 

Change the pattern of the group frequently to see how various leads affect everyone's performance. I once skied with a buddy that is 6'4"; I am 5'2". We ski differently. When it was his turn to follow, he had a lot of trouble. When I turned over the lead, he skied great. We saw the hill differently, and seeing me do my quick turns down a line influenced his perception and made his big sweepers seem out of place. Sometimes I like to see the slope only in my own eyes, take it my speed, make turns that fit my morphology. 

 

Like if after someone dropped in, I would take my hands, do a pass across my face as if to erase the visual, and drop in with my own ideas and feelings.

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post #25 of 37
2/18/12 at 3:17pm

My friends never learn, they follow, complain and follow some more.  It's probably cause I'm the best of the group and pick the best lines, but those lines sometimes include deep moguls, tight tree's, small to medium drops (if scouted earlier) and rocks.   The rooster tails on my S7's do cause people to stay further back lol

 



 

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post #26 of 37
2/18/12 at 6:37pm
Thread Starter 

Don't try to impress me. Entertain me. More fun. And I've seen it all.

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post #27 of 37
2/18/12 at 8:17pm

Don't stop on the traverse, especially on the Hi-T at Alta just before the green mat!

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post #28 of 37
2/18/12 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzer View Post


I thought that they were the three most dangerous words in skiing. "Follow me Dad."

 



I'd like to add:  "Let's go this way.  It's not that bad."

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post #29 of 37
2/18/12 at 8:34pm


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbinder View Post



I'd like to add:  "Let's go this way.  It's not that bad."



Or:

"Let's go this way. How bad could it be?"

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post #30 of 37
2/18/12 at 11:09pm

no more than 3 beers at lunch....biggrin.gif

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