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inbalance in crud while turning

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

So at the beginning of the year I came on here because I was having questions about how to ski crud and variable snow. I have gotten a lot better but still have a question about something I am doing and whether it is right.

 

First: I ski at Alta 15 yrs old, I am now on Atomic Blog skis 177cm length they are mounted 1 notch in front of the team mount. They feel awesome and they are a little more work but I will probably get used to that. I mounted them there because I felt I wanted a ski with even swing weight and skiing switch is more stable.

 

My question is this, when I ski in choppy and bumpy powder, I feel more comfortable just going straight and taking all of the bumps with my legs but if I try to make any turn more than just a big gentle carve at speeds, I lose balance and sometimes trip forward onto my face. I always have the mental thought in my mind to stay forward, hands forward and do my best to stay leaned downhill. I feel like sometimes when I turn my outside ski comes back and scisors more than it probably should which will trip me on powder and throw me off in crud. For example turning right, my left ski comes back maybe a little more than it should and then get's caught in powder sometimes. I feel like I do this maybe because I am actually in the backseat and it is like a little bad patch I do? But I don't like when I land a cliff or anything for that matter and come away at decent speeds through crud, I feel more comfortable just going straight and focusing on absorbing the bumps until it flattens out and I slow down, than turning. It is probably natural for this to happen but my skiing feels great on groomers, I can carve fine and I feel but my problem comes out whenevr I ski down a run like upper sunspot off the High traverse for example (in crud). I ski down almost like the (no offense) 40 yr old ladies who go left turn-stop-right turn-stop. It isn't queit like that but it's pretty close. I see people who can tear it up wherever they are, and that's what I want to improve on and not have a weakspot. I know it's hard to tell without seeing me but is this a problem I should work on fixing?


Edited by drainbamage - 2/14/12 at 6:28pm
post #2 of 15
Seriously? You drop cliffs, but don't know how to turn?

Seriously?
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 

No no no,

 

  I wouldn't call them cliffs for their size just little hits that may be anywhere from 4-15 feet in height. And when did I say I don't know how to turn? I maybe made it sound worse than it is but I am trying to make known my weakness and how I may become stronger with handling the conditions I described above.

 

But I don't huck big ass cliffs I probably shouldn't have used that word, anything that is a natural air basically.....

post #4 of 15
You say you can't turn and need to straightline whenever the snow is cruddy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post

My question is this, when I ski in choppy and bumpy powder, I feel more comfortable just going straight and taking all of the bumps with my legs but if I try to make any turn more than just a big gentle carve at speeds, I lose balance and sometimes trip forward onto my face.

And this is true yet you do 15 foot drops regularly enough to call them casual air? And you ski switch often enough to set up your skis with a switch bias? Yet you still don't know how to turn when the snow isn't perfect?

Seriously?
post #5 of 15

Drainbamage, I wish I could help. I don't have advice to offer, and I hope someone who reads this thread can give you the constructive advice you deserve and honestly seem to be seeking. I will say, that a lot of people like to see video so they can do some MA. If you can get some video of you skiing and attempting a variety of skills (even if it's not in the exact conditions you describe), that would give people the chance to offer some constructive criticism.

 

GrizzledVeteran, a 15 year old comes on here seeking advice and you slay him.

 

Seriously?

post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSloan View Post

GrizzledVeteran, a 15 year old comes on here seeking advice and you slay him.

 

Seriously?


No kidding!  Why not dial back the "grizzled" a bit there, GV, and cut the kid a break?

 

OP, a good skier with a good eye is going to have to see you ski those conditions to accurately diagnose what ails you...like an instructor, if you can swing that.

You say you suspect you're in the backseat, so there's likely something to that, which would mean working harder on staying centered and facing down the fall line.  The width of your stance could be an issue also.  

Some of the more accomplished skiers here can offer more educated speculation as to the nature of the problem and thus more effective advice, but the problem really has to be seen to be resolved.

 

post #7 of 15

Hard to say without video, but when I feel the runaway outside ski, it usually is a sign that I am standing too much on my inside ski. Try standing on your outside ski.

post #8 of 15
I'm not "slaying" anyone. I have a tough time seeing the picture he's painting. He's skilled enough to ride switch comfortably and regularly drop 15 foot airs, but he can't manage slightly cutup powder?

In order to help him we need to know where his skiing is and what are its weaknesses. He's painting a picture of incongruous weakness based on his self-description.

Dropping 15 foot airs regularly and skiing switch comfortably suggests one of two things: great athleticism, or exaggerated self-description. If it's great athleticism, I have a hard time seeing him not easily manage slightly cutup powder. Where is he dropping 15 foot cliffs if not into powder? Isn't that landing area often imperfect snow? How does he manage landings if he can't manage cutup powder? How does he ski switch comfortably, yet have a tough time in cutup powder?

It doesn't fit. I could be wrong however. He could be The Great Anomaly!

In any case it would make sense to have a clearer self-description and probably video. You can't help him fix something if you can't see or know what's done wrong.
post #9 of 15

I think Epic nailed it.  It sounds like the OP is leaning to the inside and back.  This can cause the inside ski to get too far ahead.  Pressure is lost on the outside ski and it can get caught and slowed down.  This can also cause the inside ski to be on a higher edge angle and turn more than the outside ski.  I would bet that you drop the inside hand back and tip into your turns.  There are lots of things you can do to help this.

 

Pivot Slips

Tray Drills

Camera Drills

Schlopy Drills

Javelin turns

 

These are just a few.  We would need to see you ski to be sure.  Also a drill done incorrectly doesn't help and may make the problem worse.  I would work on skiing forwards and strong before getting too caught up in air and switch.  Skiing is supposed to be fun, so you do what works for you.  I think that the outcome I have diagnosed is correct, what we can't know without seeing is the cause.  

post #10 of 15

db, maybe it's your cool handle that make some think it's already too late to cut you any slack? wink.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post

My question is this, when I ski in choppy and bumpy powder, I feel more comfortable just going straight and taking all of the bumps with my legs but if I try to make any turn more than just a big gentle carve at speeds, I lose balance and sometimes trip forward onto my face. I always have the mental thought in my mind to stay forward, hands forward and do my best to stay leaned downhill.


 

In crud/powder your base position should be centered over your skis. Not biased forward or back, centered. We all get tossed around by funky snow. Being centered makes it easier to recover without going over the handlebars.

 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post

I feel like sometimes when I turn my outside ski comes back and scisors more than it probably should which will trip me on powder and throw me off in crud. For example turning right, my left ski comes back maybe a little more than it should and then get's caught in powder sometimes. I feel like I do this maybe because I am actually in the backseat and it is like a little bad patch I do?

 

Not quite clear here. Are you saying your outside ski turns SHARPER than your inside ski (tending to cross tips)? Or is it turning SLOWER than your inside ski (diverging tips). In either case I doubt that fore/aft weight distribution is the culprit, however L/R weight distribution may very well be.

 

If your outside ski is crossing over (under) your inside ski:

You may be weighting your outside ski too much and your inside ski not enough. This works okay on the groomed, you can get away with all kinds of stuff on groomers. In crud/pow/bumps, however, an unweighted/unsteered ski will tend to travel in a straight line or wherever the snow pushes it. Your weighted/steered outside ski turns, the inside ski doesn't, FLOP! Try weighting and guiding both skis more equally.

 

If your outside ski is diverging from your inside ski:

Maybe the same problem but in reverse: too much weight on inside ski, the outside ski being unguided tracks straight.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post

But I don't like when I land a cliff or anything for that matter and come away at decent speeds through crud, I feel more comfortable just going straight and focusing on absorbing the bumps until it flattens out and I slow down, than turning. It is probably natural for this to happen but my skiing feels great on groomers, I can carve fine and I feel but my problem comes out whenevr I ski down a run like upper sunspot off the High traverse for example (in crud). I ski down almost like the (no offense) 40 yr old ladies who go left turn-stop-right turn-stop. It isn't queit like that but it's pretty close.

 

Let me introduce you to my mother. She's 79yo and still skis better than that - seriously. biggrin.gif
 

Without meaning any offense, you only think you ski well on groomers. If your groomer technique were truly sound you wouldn't be having this problem in crud. Try this exercise on a reasonably pitched groomer: ski the whole run on one ski, making alternate turns on first the inside edge, then the outside edge. Repeat using the other ski. 

 

Can you do that? I'm guessing not, because if you could you'd have the balance and skills to ski crud without the problems you describe. There's an easy drill that will help build those skills called "Thousand Steps". Google it and try it.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post

I see people who can tear it up wherever they are, and that's what I want to improve on and not have a weakspot. I know it's hard to tell without seeing me but is this a problem I should work on fixing?

 

Absolutely! Check out Bob Barnes excellent thread on here named "Crudology" for some great tips and examples.

 

Also check out the recent thread by 'epic' showing a vid of him skiing super nasty, deep crud. He handles it beautifully. Watch just his skis the first time you view it. Then review watching his legs, then hips, then upper body and hands - in that order. You'll get some great visuals on how to make ANY radius turns in these conditions.

 

Good luck, have fun!

post #11 of 15

Try using more core tension. The snow is going to throw you around but a little more core tension will reduce the amount of squirt and stall feelings you are experiencing.

post #12 of 15

Well its obvioulsy an issue you should work on fixing, but you did provide some good clues as to what is going on. A few points to consider:

 

  • Its logical you will feel better going straight.  This is becuase you are hitting the bumps straight on, and the allowing the ski's forebody to take the impact and act as a shock abosober.  This is what all good skiers do...of course they can generate that same effect while turning.
  • From your post it seems you lose that shock abosorber effect when you turn in crud...clue 1.
  • You believe you can "carve" on groomers.  I suspect you can, but it would likley be a park and ride situation, where you simply tip, and let the skis side cut pull you around....clue 2.
  • To use the "park and ride" version of turning in crud would be very difficult as you would pick up too much speed (might as well straight line) and lateral balance is tough...you need to turn more then the park and ride allows...to do this you must be adding somthing...or doing somthing extra that you dont do on groomers...clue 3.
  • Outside ski getting caught behind....clue 4, or you end up in the turn-stop-turn-stop scenario...I assume it is not both at once.

 

 

Based on above it tells me when you get into crud you desire to turn the skis faster means you either, lean into the hill more, hoping it will get the skis to come around like on the groomed.  But this is causing you to transfer too much weight to your uphill ski, which gets the outside foot caught back.  You need to "angulate" more.  This will help you tip the skis on edge more while still staying balanced on the outside ski.  A good way is to think of keeping your shoulders "level", you dont want to lean in with you whole body.

 

Or in the turn stop turn stop scenario you are likely twisting the whole body around....skis and all.  This means the skis are skidding big time and essentially going sideways.  This means the skis forebody is no longer taking the impact, your legs are.  This is tiring, and slow!  Hence you feel like you are stopping between turns.  You need to focus on ILS.  This is what the pros do...I made a post a while back with video showing top guys like Seth Morrison and Hugo Harrison showing ILS.  Pivot slips are a great way to learn this.  If I can find the post I will link it.

 

 

post #13 of 15
Thread Starter 

Very helpful SkiDude. You said it alot better than I did and that is right, on the groomers I definately realize I am just tilting the skis and allowing the edges to dig which in turn makes me turn. This is indeed like straight lining. I do catch myself leaning quite a bit on the uphill ski, I will work on that this WE. I'll google ILS and see what somes up

 

Thanks

post #14 of 15

Yeah, it's sounds like you've got the 'jibby' shuck and jive rotation and leaning thing going on. Very correctable!

post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post

 I'll google ILS and see what somes up

 

Thanks



ILS = Independent Leg Steering.  Lots of threads on it here.

 

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