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Difficult drills/tasks - Page 2

post #31 of 59

A Bob Barnes favorite--diverging pivot slips.

post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post


Sounds like almost a Royal Christie?

 



Looks more like a duck walking, quickly, and a Royal Christie looks more like an elegant dog...uhhh... stretching it's leg. 

post #33 of 59

Trained at Mt Hood one summer. Everyday i warmed up one i ski. I weight 110 pounds and skied on a 199, 201 or a 210 ski depending  on that day of training. Running gates on 1 ski was hell week everyday. I can even think of doing that now.

post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alveolus View Post

Is there a video compendium of common drills?  I can find text descriptions of them.  Problem is, I don't understand (or worse..mistakenly think I understand) half the words in the descriptions.  I have found videos of a couple of them, just wondering if there was video collected somewhere.  When someone says "you should practice the east st louis lindy hop hasenpfeffer drill," I could quickly find out what it is supposed to look like.



I found this clip on youtube. Good length, lots of drills, and the instructors all have delightful kiwi accents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9l7f-_a8Bw

post #35 of 59

I like drills that actaully teach real skiing movements.

 

IMO stuff like the charleston(aka diverageing hop turns), royal christies, texas two step, converging hop turns are stuff that does challenge our balance but in out of the case actually reinforce bad habits...

 

Some difficult task that actually use in lessons

 

reverse a pass turns - little toe edge traverse to big toe edge turn. Lets people discover how to be on their outside ski from the very start of the turn and also how much we can tip without getting off balanced from our outside ski.

 

fancy falling leaf - turn to to the outside right  go backwards to the middle turn tips down the hill and then turn toward the outside left repeat IT teach people how to suck their feet back up the hill in pivot slip(or any other short turn), and again you have 3 parrerall releases for each cycle. Plus this is actually alot of fun.

 

dolphin straight run - find a group of rollers and lauch off the tails on each one then suck you feet back and drive the tips down the backside. Teaches for and aft balance control at the limits of what we are capable up. The pressure/balance control is exactly like bump skiing. also a tactical move for skiing when you need to launch over something with no jump. My ollie on some skis now is around 20-30 inches.

 

dolphin turns - a leaper where you launch of you tails, flex your legs and pull your feet back in mid air so when you land your driving you tips into the snow.  Somethings as above but the timing has be way more precise and it helps us learn to Foot Squirt in or short turns.

 

reverse railroad tracks - its a great one for eliminating heel pushing or any rotary when trying to do forward rail road tracks.

 

 

360s teaches for and aft pressure control indepent rotary and proper flexing. As well how to release both skis at the same time(I never introduce the wedge/duck stance to get though them because that is exactly what I am trying to eliminate from my students skiing) BTW the guy doing the video is quite bad at them and then it show in his 'one two" move on his pivot slips. He stalls his COM movement in the 360 when he goes to backwards because he WAY overflexed at the hip and his ankle are locked in a 150 flex race boot.

 

outside ski only backwards - get people to get rid of the dreaded wedge when going backwards

 

things I do not use in lessons and may have no purpose at all, but I can do them.

 

one footed 360s - when on right foot  you go clockwise,when on left foot you go counter clockwise. You must be prescise in moving your COM down the hill and have extreme understanding of balancing movements to complete these. After a couple years of practice I can go all the ways down our green run with out ever putting down the other foot. These are the easier direction for one footed spins

 

one footed 360s reversed (aka whitepass spins)-  whenon  right foot you go counterclockwise, when on left foot you go clockwise. these are much much tougher. I started doing these this year to fix some of my own alignment problem. They are extremely hard and near the limit of my own balance skills.

 

fakie one footed skiing - just plain tough. someday have this figured out and can do it on easy green runs. Some day my lingering upbody rotation kills me. which is why I do this. If my upper body is rotating that day this is nearly impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #36 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by enkidu View Post



I found this clip on youtube. Good length, lots of drills, and the instructors all have delightful kiwi accents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9l7f-_a8Bw



thats some pretty solid skiing

 

post #37 of 59
A Royal includes the unweighted leg/ski being held behind and up so the tail of that ski is near the skier's head. Takes longer to switch from left to right skis when doing consecutive Royals.
post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post


What Plake is doing here, nay?  Also called "crazy legs" in the old hot dog days? - Click for video

 

CRAZYLEG.jpg

 

 

And I believe he's doing royal christies right after that in the vid.



Yup, Plake does the Charleston followed by Royals.
post #39 of 59

I had a pair of the Merlin I think 6 's like PLake was skiing inthe video. Stiff and burley ski. Gota love PLake, one of a kind for sure. I never get tired of watching video of him. 

post #40 of 59

One footed check turns

post #41 of 59

The most difficult drill I've encountered is skiing with your legs crossed and both skis on snow. (this is not recommended for sane people)

 

I'm with Bush on the importance of understanding the distinction between hard to do drills and drills that are useful. But wait ... there's more! Good drills should be easy to do if you have the skills to do the movement the drill is designed to emphasize. Drills that are just simply too hard to do are not right for your development. Drills that emphasize movements that you have learned but not yet mastered are hard, but not so hard that you can't master them with a reasonable level of effort. Drills that emphasize movements you have not yet learned can either spontaneously teach the movement (sometimes you get lucky) or just be hard to do forever. But wait ... there's more! Just knowing a drill is only the first step. Being able to recognize when a student is ready for the drill and when conditions are right (e.g. terrain, snow consistency, crowds) is the next step. Tailoring the drill to the exact needs of the student is the final piece to the puzzle.

 

So please be careful people. A list of drills like this could be like giving a full set of power tools to first graders.

post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

 Just knowing a drill is only the first step. Being able to recognize when a student is ready for the drill and when conditions are right (e.g. terrain, snow consistency, crowds) is the next step. Tailoring the drill to the exact needs of the student is the final piece to the puzzle.

 

So please be careful people. A list of drills like this could be like giving a full set of power tools to first graders.


With due respect, I think a competent instructor has a pretty good idea when and where a drill for adults or a game for kids is appropriate. Kids can always be introduced to 'games' earlier than adults and usually with great results. They haven't mastered the 'M' of F=MA. 'F' being 'fear'.  smile.gif  Had a level 3-4 kids class last week. We skied forward with hops, backwards with hops, and at the bottom of the beginner hill with plenty of room, backwards on one ski with a couple of shaky hops! They invented the last one on their own. Haven't taught level 3 adults that even wanted to do backwards wedges without some coaxing, and will still do it with level 1 or 2 if I think they're ready. Some are, some aren't. For kids it's just fun. For adults, it's about stance and pressuring the cuff. Same drill, just different eye and life levels. 

post #43 of 59

 

Bushwacker: Are "reverse railroad tracks" railroad turn doen backwards?  And "fakie one footed" is that skiing backwards on one ski?  If you wouldn't, maybe a couple of words on Texas Two step, I am not familiar with that one.

post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by molesaver View Post

 

Bushwacker: Are "reverse railroad tracks" railroad turn doen backwards?  And "fakie one footed" is that skiing backwards on one ski?  If you wouldn't, maybe a couple of words on Texas Two step, I am not familiar with that one.


 

yeah the Fakie railroad tracks turns actually serve alot of purpose.

 

skiing backwords on one foot is pretyt much useless besides being a super challenging thing to do. As far as I know there is not lateral transfer to anything.

post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post

 

skiing backwords on one foot is pretyt much useless besides being a super challenging thing to do. As far as I know there is not lateral transfer to anything.



In your opinion, Josh. This is where BW used to get in trouble, not imagining what's possible and 'why' on first posting impulse.  In the case I mentioned above, the one footed backward thing was all theirs. Going by the gradual release of responsibility teaching model, it was a great finish. I asked them what it would help, and they said, "balance". Good enough for me, not to mention the additional confidence gained on skis. Nothing more, nothing less. It's also not the only thing we're working on with them, and apologies for not providing full context.  Bottom line, they had great fun, embrace challenges after a slow week 1, and are very much looking forward to this week's lesson no. 3.

post #46 of 59

I don't think Josh was talking about you and your teaching here.  He had mentioned fakie one footed in an earlier post of his as something he messes around with that is very hard.  Then he was answering Molesavers question about some terms from "his" earlier post.  I would agree with Josh that one footed fakie skiing is a bit of a stupid human trick.  I also agree with you that if a group of my students wanted to try it and got something out of it, that it would be good enough for me.  I would allow it to a point, but would not make it a central part of my lesson as it sounds like it is not a central part of yours.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post



In your opinion, Josh. This is where BW used to get in trouble, not imagining what's possible and 'why' on first posting impulse.  In the case I mentioned above, the one footed backward thing was all theirs. Going by the gradual release of responsibility teaching model, it was a great finish. I asked them what it would help, and they said, "balance". Good enough for me, not to mention the additional confidence gained on skis. Nothing more, nothing less. It's also not the only thing we're working on with them, and apologies for not providing full context.  Bottom line, they had great fun, embrace challenges after a slow week 1, and are very much looking forward to this week's lesson no. 3.



 

post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I don't think Josh was talking about you and your teaching here.  He had mentioned fakie one footed in an earlier post of his as something he messes around with that is very hard.  Then he was answering Molesavers question about some terms from "his" earlier post.  I would agree with Josh that one footed fakie skiing is a bit of a stupid human trick.  I also agree with you that if a group of my students wanted to try it and got something out of it, that it would be good enough for me.  I would allow it to a point, but would not make it a central part of my lesson as it sounds like it is not a central part of yours.


Sorry if I misinterpreted your post Josh. TPJ, exactly!

 

post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Sorry if I misinterpreted your post Josh. TPJ, exactly!

 



yeah I see no point in teaching Fakie one footed skiing to anyone if someone wants to do it why not? . Like I said I can find any real benefit to it beside it being stupid hard.

 

As for the fakie Railroad tracks turns. There is actually alot transfer to our real skiing form that including increased awareness of long leg short leg, a way to make heel pushers stop heel pushing, and they are just plain fun.

 

Like I said earlier I do not like difficult task because they are hard, I like difficult task because when applied right you can fix people life long problems in alot less time than other more conventional means.

 

 

post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


With due respect, I think a competent instructor has a pretty good idea when and where a drill for adults or a game for kids is appropriate. Kids can always be introduced to 'games' earlier than adults and usually with great results. They haven't mastered the 'M' of F=MA. 'F' being 'fear'.  smile.gif  Had a level 3-4 kids class last week. We skied forward with hops, backwards with hops, and at the bottom of the beginner hill with plenty of room, backwards on one ski with a couple of shaky hops! They invented the last one on their own. Haven't taught level 3 adults that even wanted to do backwards wedges without some coaxing, and will still do it with level 1 or 2 if I think they're ready. Some are, some aren't. For kids it's just fun. For adults, it's about stance and pressuring the cuff. Same drill, just different eye and life levels. 



I was referring to a generic list of difficult tasks per the OP's request and the potential of a such a list to be used inappropriately. It's not a big deal. It's just something to consider. Personally, I'm not all that great at turning adult drills into kids games and I'm usually stunned when I have mixed groups and the adults do the "kids" tasks despite getting a free pass. But I have taught backwards skiing to never evers. Go figure!

 

I think there are a lot of competent instructors who teach certain drills primarily because the drills worked for them. I've been there and done that. But there is another level of competence. I am fortunate enough to get to help other instructors get better. I can't tell you how many times I've worked on another instructor's personal skiing or riding and had them hit me up later in the day with a story of how they used the same drill with great success in a lesson. That's great but I get worried about every problem being a nail. After 19 seasons of teaching I have a large bag of tricks, but I'm still adding "info" to each trick (e.g. how to introduce the drill, optimal TID [timing, intensity, duration] factors, why the drill works, what to watch for - common problems, when not to use the drill, what factors make it superior choice of other drills for that situation, etc.).

post #50 of 59

Nice post Rusty! Especially the part about new coaches and how they assume since we gave them a drill to work on in their personal skiing, it somehow has to be appropriate for their next ten classes. Perhaps getting them to understand what they are working on isn't what their students are working on is the hardest drill of all. Yes, we want them to focus on improving a particular part of their skiing but that shouldn't become a reason to set that as an agenda for their students. Drills are tools and we wouldn't use a hammer when a saw would be a more appropriate tool.

post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Nice post Rusty! Especially the part about new coaches and how they assume since we gave them a drill to work on in their personal skiing, it somehow has to be appropriate for their next ten classes. Perhaps getting them to understand what they are working on isn't what their students are working on is the hardest drill of all. Yes, we want them to focus on improving a particular part of their skiing but that shouldn't become a reason to set that as an agenda for their students. Drills are tools and we wouldn't use a hammer when a saw would be a more appropriate tool.


hmmm. Speaking only for myself, it's not at all hard to understand that what I need to work on is not what most of my student's need to do. If what you say is the case, is there a failure within the training system and if this is indeed common, why aren't TD's pointing this out? If I were reading your post as someone that might be a potential ski school customer, It'd confirm my worst fears that instructors really have no clue what they're doing, so I'd spend my money elsewhere. Maybe a hotel upgrade, a massage, etc...

post #52 of 59

There is no failure within the training system. It is common because it's common nature. It's something that trainers do tell their rookie pros. Rookie pros need to get trained in order to become experienced pros. Building their bag of tricks is part of that process. It's not like these drills are bad for the guests. It's just that there's a good chance that they are not the absolute best choice the pro could have made if they had better analysis skills and a bigger bag of tricks. I'd say that it's a stretch to take that reality and conclude "instructors really have no clue what they're doing". If you have that opinion, suggestions for how to do things differently are always welcomed.

 

There is a simple means for ski school customers to ensure that they get instructors who know what they are doing: insist on an instructor with top level certification. As a skier who formerly used money that could have been spent on lessons for more lift tickets, I won't begrudge anyone who chooses not to take lessons out of fear of lack of value. I've chosen to try to help solve this problem by becoming an instructor and working hard to increase the value delivered in as many lessons as possible. Along the way I've had the good fortune to meet and ski with some of the best instructors in the US. I now spend more money on lessons than I ever could have possibly imagined and I consider it money well spent. Your vertical may vary.

post #53 of 59

speak of the devil - there's an article in today's wall street journal about knee surgeons having a learning curve for ACL surgery. The more experience a surgeon has doing ACL repairs, the lower the patient's risk of having another ACL repair within a year.  The article states "given that a learning curve is to some degree inevitable, what can be done?". This is followed by "At the end of the day ... there's no substitute for independent surgery" (i.e. learning by doing).  

 

The problem here is that if everyone only got work done by experienced pros, there would be no new guys to replace the old guys.

post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

The problem here is that if everyone only got work done by experienced pros, there would be no new guys to replace the old guys.

I would hope a decent orthopedic practice would have junior / less-experienced surgeons repairing ACLs of people who aren't highly athletic and/or who don't tend to expose their knees to regular ACL-risking stresses. Let the big risks be repaired by the more-experienced surgeon. I would think that one way to move along the junior surgeon is have him/her assist the more experienced one as often as possible.

At the other end of things would be the bottom-line-chasing practice where this sort of apprenticeship / educational culture is lacking. I wonder how practices around the USA stack up on this issue.
post #55 of 59

 

to give you an idea of what I was calling a reverse a pass turn.'

 

USSA calls it up and over. 

 

post #56 of 59

Josh, looks like lifting the inside ski while carving on the outside... is there more to it than what I'm seeing?

post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Josh, looks like lifting the inside ski while carving on the outside... is there more to it than what I'm seeing?


Well, you are lifting the outside ski before teh transition, so you are starting on little-toe of uphill ski.

post #58 of 59

Nice!

post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post


I would hope a decent orthopedic practice would have junior / less-experienced surgeons repairing ACLs of people who aren't highly athletic and/or who don't tend to expose their knees to regular ACL-risking stresses. Let the big risks be repaired by the more-experienced surgeon. I would think that one way to move along the junior surgeon is have him/her assist the more experienced one as often as possible.
At the other end of things would be the bottom-line-chasing practice where this sort of apprenticeship / educational culture is lacking. I wonder how practices around the USA stack up on this issue.


That was the shocking point of the article: Across the industry "understudy" had no significant effect on the stats. The conclusion was that you don't get good until you've had experience doing it yourself and that those who were getting cut by less experienced surgeons had a higher occurrence of reinjury.

 

It's like saying no amount of supervision of a junior chef will make a cake taste as good as a cake baked by a senior chef.

 

It's been my observation of ski and snowboard lessons that there is a similar effect. Supervision helps expedite the learning curve for rookies, but more supervision does not seem to have anywhere near as a big of an impact as more experience does. Applying this concept to the topic of the thread means that just having a list of drills is not going to be as helpful as having someone with experience using those drills for skill development.

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