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Technique question. Tails catching?

post #1 of 13
1/27/12 at 7:50pm
Thread Starter 
Hello, all.

So what could wrong with my technique if Im catching my tails after switching to a new ski?

The past two seasons, I mainly used a 05/06 183 gotama, and I never had issues with my tails catching with this ski. This past week I used 182 shoguns at jay peak in a conditions ranging fro
Ice,slush, packed, and a few leftover stashes. Both pairs of skis were mounted at freeride 0.

With the slightly more tail length and more sidecut I was having tail grabbing issues with the shoguns. Some of this was the ski, but Im obviously more to blame. What's the most common cause of this? Too much in the back seat? I focused on keeping my weight more forward but I am a fairly competent skier, but I never felt totally comfortable. This problem was more noticeable on steeper terrain. My runs down pumphouse were quite lackn confidence!
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post #2 of 13
1/28/12 at 9:45am

What's your size?  the 182 Shogun is equivalent to a size longer than the 183 Gotama, in part due to a stiffer tail, IMO. Given normal height to weight ratio, I do not think the Shogun has to be skied longer than up to your eyes. The tip rocker is very slight, more early rise.

 

If you want to analyze your technique, what is the tail catching about? details? when in the turn? how pronounced? outcome?

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post #3 of 13
1/28/12 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

What's your size?  the 182 Shogun is equivalent to a size longer than the 183 Gotama, in part due to a stiffer tail, IMO. Given normal height to weight ratio, I do not think the Shogun has to be skied longer than up to your eyes. The tip rocker is very slight, more early rise.

 

If you want to analyze your technique, what is the tail catching about? details? when in the turn? how pronounced? outcome?



I'm actually wondering if OP is having "tails catching on each other" type issues.

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post #4 of 13
1/28/12 at 3:39pm

stay forward

 

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post #5 of 13
1/28/12 at 4:28pm

When I hear "tails catch" I think of a turn that did not come around all the way because the tails either didn't get hopped far enough or the tails didn't release enough to slide far enough. both in the case of a tail push type turn. This happens a lot with a ski that is too much for someone, like moves that were sufficient fail to get the job done with the new skis.

 

Also, check that the skis are tuned to ski, as in, perhaps taking the new sharpness off of the tips and tails.

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post #6 of 13
1/28/12 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

When I hear "tails catch" I think of a turn that did not come around all the way because the tails either didn't get hopped far enough or the tails didn't release enough to slide far enough. both in the case of a tail push type turn. This happens a lot with a ski that is too much for someone, like moves that were sufficient fail to get the job done with the new skis.

 

Also, check that the skis are tuned to ski, as in, perhaps taking the new sharpness off of the tips and tails.


Thank you for the replies, guys.  I am 6'0" 195.  I think a lot of what you have said is most likely the case, but I should most likely spend a few more days to allow for adjustment to the shoguns.  After giving a good look to the 183 goats and the 182 shoguns, there is a slightly longer tail on the Shoguns that was not initially detuned at all. I wore

 

By "tails catching", I do not mean catching together. By catching my tail, I am referring to a much of what Davluri said in not getting my skis around as I easily do on my 183 gotamas or older 177 bridges (I no longer have).   My initial feeling was that the tail catching was totally on my part due to fatigue (This season I went cold turkey out of shape to 5 full consecutive days on as my first of the season), a new ski with sharp contact points, and jumping right into challenging terrain. When I went back to the gotamas one day, I had no issues, which leads me to believe I was using the less sidecut, softer tail, and detuned edges on the gotamas as a crutch. 

 

With all this being said, last year while in shape, I used my 183 goats for five days at Breckenridge, and I felt that they weren't enough ski while skiing at speed in steeper, chopped, above treeline terrain.  It's amazing how different terrain and different snow can make a ski feel like either a twig or a tank strapped to your foot. I am still fairly new to skiing and equipment so I'm learning every day.

 

 

 

 

 

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post #7 of 13
1/28/12 at 7:33pm

If you still have the goats, measure the relative boot center position (percent of running length from tail contact point) and compare it to the Shoguns. I did this when I switched from a 178 rossi scratch bc to a 182 shogun and found that all the extra length of the shogun was in the tail (total of two extra inches all in the tail). I skied the ski for a couple weeks before measuring, I only measured once I decided that the ski felt short in the tip and long in the tail and low and behold they were. The tails definitely felt grabby compared to the rossis and it is exacerbated by the stiffer tails. Same type of thing could be happening with your perception coming from the gotamas.

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post #8 of 13
1/28/12 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98brg2d View Post

If you still have the goats, measure the relative boot center position (percent of running length from tail contact point) and compare it to the Shoguns. I did this when I switched from a 178 rossi scratch bc to a 182 shogun and found that all the extra length of the shogun was in the tail (total of two extra inches all in the tail). I skied the ski for a couple weeks before measuring, I only measured once I decided that the ski felt short in the tip and long in the tail and low and behold they were. The tails definitely felt grabby compared to the rossis and it is exacerbated by the stiffer tails. Same type of thing could be happening with your perception coming from the gotamas.



You are right on with the measurements.  If I line up both skis at boot center, I have about 3.5cm to 4cm more toe on the goats, and about 3cm more on the tail of the Shoguns. 

 

I threw myself right into the thick of it this past week too, which I'm sure didn't help. I mostly had issues in the more technical stuff.  A buddy did snap a shot of the terrain which was troubling me more so than would normally.  I mostly had issues on steeper terrain where tight and precise hop turns were needed.  I still was able to ski without hindrance, but not nearly as comfortably as normal. There was a 2" breakable crust that my tails occasionally were getting caught under while initiating a hop turn. What can you do about that?  Less than desirable conditions on Jay's ridge....

 

PumpHouseTony.jpg

 

 

 


Edited by homerocks - 1/28/12 at 8:02pm
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post #9 of 13
1/28/12 at 7:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98brg2d View Post

If you still have the goats, measure the relative boot center position (percent of running length from tail contact point) and compare it to the Shoguns. I did this when I switched from a 178 rossi scratch bc to a 182 shogun and found that all the extra length of the shogun was in the tail (total of two extra inches all in the tail). I skied the ski for a couple weeks before measuring, I only measured once I decided that the ski felt short in the tip and long in the tail and low and behold they were. The tails definitely felt grabby compared to the rossis and it is exacerbated by the stiffer tails. Same type of thing could be happening with your perception coming from the gotamas.



Most likely I will just need a couple days to get used to the different feel.  I went with the Shoguns because my Gotamas are just beaten to hell, and an edge looks like it is about to blow out.  It's not seperated, but is showing signs of giving up the ghost.  I wanted a ~100mm underfoot ski that had a little more bite so I guess I hit the nail on the head. I think the shorter toe in the Shoguns fools me into not keeping my weight as far forward as I should too. I need to get them out on a softer deeper day to get more confidence in them.

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post #10 of 13
1/31/12 at 12:11am

I'm getting the impression that you saying that your tails are catching up the hill at or right after turn initiation.  If that's the case, flattening your skis more by allowing your body to move further downhill during the finish of the previous turn would let your skis rotate more freely.  It takes a commitment down the hill that might take some getting used to, but it will definitely smooth things out.

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post #11 of 13
1/31/12 at 12:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerocks View Post

This past week I used 182 shoguns at jay peak in a conditions ranging from Ice,slush, packed, and a few leftover stashes.

 

Fact is hard pack is not ideal conditions for these skis. I skied mine this past weekend after spending most the season on gs skis due to the conditions. As was mentioned earlier they seem to ski short in the tip which is a very odd feeling. To me this made them feel flighty on hard pack at high speeds. Luckily we have received some snow and there was some nice soft snow to be found and here I found them a joy to ski and in trees they skied great with me able to bring them around quickly. I think you will have to go through an adjustment period for sure but keep in mind what they are designed for.

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post #12 of 13
1/31/12 at 6:51am

Looking at that shot, I see how you got your screen name. ha.

those are not easy conditions, so go easy on yourself.

 

I saw a clinic on the mountain the other day and they were doing hop turn drills. The drill was not to let the ski move forward on its edge, to keep the ski checking and sliding in the fall line, to make a consistent platform and hop with every turn, to keep a square stance. try it on good conditions on a 35* ish pitch. do a few hundred a day. smile.gif

 

I have been reluctant to ski on a model ski that would make my other skis seem "hard" to turn because I wouldn't want to learn bad habits.

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post #13 of 13
1/31/12 at 8:46am

May well be a technical issue but if these are new skis what tuning did you do before you used them? Many skis come from the factories with seriously concave, or convex bases and need a fair bit of work before they respond correctly. It seems you've not encountered the issue before and while different skis of course do respond in different ways, it's quite possible that catching your tails could be to do with getting stuck on your concave bases rather than a sudden technical flaw. Have a check. If you worked on them beforeusing them just ignore the suggestion.

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