Just horrible. A young life expunged before it even got started.

Very sad. Emphasizes just how serious a situation it can be after new snowfall on a weak base.

Rumor has it that somewhere around 12 season passes were pulled this weekend at Grand Targhee for skiing in "CLOSED AVALANCHE TERRAIN".  One of those, when approached, even had the audacity to state something like "There's no avi danger.  I can ski where ever.".

Sorry for the loss, but skiing in a closed area and ducking a rope are no-no's.

HB

It's sad to see this happen to anyone let alone a child.  I wouldn't be shocked to see more serious injuries or fatalities in the coming days.  I couldn't believe a couple of reports I read on the Utah Avalanche Center's web page about people going in to uncontrolled terrain with no safety equipment. 

I saw 4 young ones ducking under at  peak 10  on  Breck yesterday.

Avlanche warnings obviously meant go for it.

I like my pass, there was plenty to ski......

this is sad and senseless. the lure of fresh is powerful and the danger isn't apparent; "it won't happen to me".  I don't know if you can stop folks but its so sad. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarkinBanks 

Rumor has it that somewhere around 12 season passes were pulled this weekend at Grand Targhee for skiing in "CLOSED AVALANCHE TERRAIN".  One of those, when approached, even had the audacity to state something like "There's no avi danger.  I can ski where ever.".

 

Sorry for the loss, but skiing in a closed area and ducking a rope are no-no's.

 

HB

+1

I wish more resorts would start invoking the nuclear option. People might not believe that their lives are in danger, but if they know that their passes are they might start making different decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzmtl 

Don't mean to speak ill of the dead, but if you ignore the big sign that says "don't go there or you'll cause an avalanche" and do it anyway, you probably should be weeded out, preferably before you get others killed.

You ARE speaking ill of the dead.  You're saying that it's good for children to loose their lives when they make the wrong choice.  Kids make stupid decisions. I even imagine that some of the posters here have done something they shouldn't in their youth that was dangerous.  Let's not be so quick to condemn a child for a childish choice.  He's gone, don't rub it in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Posaune 

You ARE speaking ill of the dead.  You're saying that it's good for children to loose their lives when they make the wrong choice.  Kids make stupid decisions. I even imagine that some of the posters here have done something they shouldn't in their youth that was dangerous.  Let's not be so quick to condemn a child for a childish choice.  He's gone, don't rub it in.

 

QFT

I not only made lots of stupid decisions when I was young I continue to do so albeit not quite so many...

God bless the parents of that young man, I can't even begin to imagine the horror.  

jzmtl....you either don't have kids yourself and/or have forgotten what it is was like to be young or are just a jerk. 

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120123/NEWS/120129931/0/FRONTPAGE

......[stuff about accident, chest trauma was the culprit, see link]

Vail Resorts issued the following statement Monday: “On behalf of Vail Resorts and Vail Mountain, we extend our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the young man in the tragic incident that occurred on a closed area of the Prima Cornice trail yesterday. It is our understanding that the boys entered through a lower gate and hiked to the closed terrain.” 

Two gates provide access to Prima Cornice. Those gates are named Upper Prima Cornice and Lower Prima Cornice.

The Upper Prima Cornice access gate was closed. The lower access gate was open, said Don Dressler, with the U.S. Forest Service.

“They did not duck a rope,” Dressler said.

Dressler spent all day Monday helping with the investigation, working with the Colorado Avalanche Information Center, Eagle County Sheriff's investigators, and the Vail Ski Patrol.

Dressler went over the Vail Ski Patrol's protocol and what happened before, during and after the accident. He said they did everything as they should.

“I had to see it for myself,” Dressler said. “This case is a little different because it's inside the ski area. This one is the hardest one I've ever worked on. It's never easy to have a fatality and it's even harder when it's a child.”

I saw the story on Unofficial a couple days ago and was going to start a thread about it, with a twist on what to do if this happened to you.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/avalanche-closed-area-claims-young-skiers-life-vail-today-sunday-jan-22-69757/

If I understand correctly, the #1 Rule in an avalanche is that you never leave your buddy, yet this person's buddy ran for help. 

Right or wrong, I can't imaging having to make the decision to dig him out or run for help.  I'm sure he was not equipped with BC gear (though that's an assumption on my part)

Sad all the way around. 

According to the article, they were swept down the mountain by the avalanche and then went to get help. So they didn't just run off.

Also, they originally thought the victim was standing at the top and hadn't started down. That was not the case.

It doesn't say, but I doubt the kids had beacons. Thus, being at the bottom of a slope and having no idea where their friend is, the choice is to hike up and search visually or get help. They went to the chairlift. I don't think you can fault them for that.

There's no official report yet, but this:

Quote: from CAIC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tog 

According to the article, they were swept down the mountain by the avalanche and then went to get help. So they didn't just run off.

Also, they originally thought the victim was standing at the top and hadn't started down. That was not the case.

 

 

Yeah, I think they did the right thing, because they apparently had no clue where he was. Article also said they were bleeding and bruised, too, so maybe didn't have the strength to climb up and search. Just little kids, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tog 

According to the article, they were swept down the mountain by the avalanche and then went to get help. So they didn't just run off.

Also, they originally thought the victim was standing at the top and hadn't started down. That was not the case.

 

It doesn't say, but I doubt the kids had beacons. Thus, being at the bottom of a slope and having no idea where their friend is, the choice is to hike up and search visually or get help. They went to the chairlift. I don't think you can fault them for that.

 

There's no official report yet, but this:

Quote: from CAIC

 

I don't think they made the wrong decision.  But when I read this story, I thought........Oh Wow, how do you decide what to do if you're taught to stay with your friend and start searching?  But there you are, ill equipped to do anything except run for help. 

Like I said in my post, I doubt that they had any BC bear (beacon, shovel, pack) so they really only had one choice.  

Its just sad to see a great day with what was probably filled with a lot of fun end in such a tragedy. 

This whole thing is just really sad and really unfortunate.

I've made far stupider decisions than this as an adult, honestly. I mean, 9" isn't *that* much snow and it's understandable that you wouldn't check an avy forecast before a resort day. The kid probably looked uphill, saw some nice turns, and thought he'd go get them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rachelv 

This whole thing is just really sad and really unfortunate.

 

I've made far stupider decisions than this as an adult, honestly. I mean, 9" isn't *that* much snow and it's understandable that you wouldn't check an avy forecast before a resort day. The kid probably looked uphill, saw some nice turns, and thought he'd go get them.

It seems at this point that he triggered it and he was the one to die. But, what if he had brought that down on others and someone else dies with him.

THIS IS NOT THE SNOW YEAR TO " looked uphill, saw some nice turns, and thought he'd go get them". We had a bad start to the snow base this year. I'm hearing from lots of snow pros that it is a worse than usual base that they expect to lead to a high number of avalanches.

Go BC to get your turns. Stay out of the closed areas! I cant remember ever seeing so much spontaneous sliding at Vail as I have the last 4 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2OnSnow 

It seems at this point that he triggered it and he was the one to die. But, what if he had brought that down on others and someone else dies with him.

 

THIS IS NOT THE SNOW YEAR TO " looked uphill, saw some nice turns, and thought he'd go get them". We had a bad start to the snow base this year. I'm hearing from lots of snow pros that it is a worse than usual base that they expect to lead to a high number of avalanches.

 

Go BC to get your turns. Stay out of the closed areas! I cant remember ever seeing so much spontaneous sliding at Vail as I have the last 4 days.

If you read segbrown's post you'll see that they didn't ski a closed area, or at least they they did not duck a rope, as was reported earlier. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown 

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120123/NEWS/120129931/0/FRONTPAGE

 

......[stuff about accident, chest trauma was the culprit, see link]

 

 

 

Two access gates

Vail Resorts issued the following statement Monday: “On behalf of Vail Resorts and Vail Mountain, we extend our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the young man in the tragic incident that occurred on a closed area of the Prima Cornice trail yesterday. It is our understanding that the boys entered through a lower gate and hiked to the closed terrain.” 

Two gates provide access to Prima Cornice. Those gates are named Upper Prima Cornice and Lower Prima Cornice.

The Upper Prima Cornice access gate was closed. The lower access gate was open, said Don Dressler, with the U.S. Forest Service.

“They did not duck a rope,” Dressler said.

Dressler spent all day Monday helping with the investigation, working with the Colorado Avalanche Information Center, Eagle County Sheriff's investigators, and the Vail Ski Patrol.

Dressler went over the Vail Ski Patrol's protocol and what happened before, during and after the accident. He said they did everything as they should.

“I had to see it for myself,” Dressler said. “This case is a little different because it's inside the ski area. This one is the hardest one I've ever worked on. It's never easy to have a fatality and it's even harder when it's a child.”

Yeah, I think the area was technically closed, but as you know, things are ambiguous in that type of terrain. It isn't as if there is an entrance to the run, a rope, and that's the only way you can access it. You can't rope off the entire area. I was just having this dilemma on Monday, off S chair at Copper, around Little Trees. Some of it was roped from the top, but there were open gates and people had obviously traversed to an area below what was closed at the top. I stood and looked at one section for a few minutes, trying to figure out if it was open or not. I was pretty sure the traversable part had been roped the day before, but it wasn't roped now, and there was a clump of bamboo where that fence had been ... so I assumed it was ok to go past it. 

I'm not sure I know exactly where these boys were, but I think it was a similar situation ... If they skied to the end of the rope, sidestepped up three steps, and traversed into that terrain, who's to say we all haven't done the same thing. If they hiked way farther up, it makes it a little less ambiguous, but still something they probably had done 500 times before. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzmtl 
It's neither good or bad, but everyone pays for their stupid decisions, stupider ones tend to have more severe consequences. I wouldn't say it in front anyone related to the victim, but this is just how it goes in real life.

It's easy to call the decision "stupid" in hindsight because you know the outcome. It makes it seem as if it was obvious that the slope would slide by going out there, so anyone going on it was "stupid". This is a way overly simplistic view of both the situation and human nature. This view makes it seem that the choices are between "smart" and "stupid" and that the situation presents itself very clearly and one simply made the "stupid" choice in order to go for it. This type of thinking is actually dangerous because it implies that the choices are obvious in a situation and you will make the right one because you won't make the "stupid" one.  Things just aren't so black and white.

In the northeast there's been a recent spate of fires caused by putting fireplace ashes in a box. On Christmas day one woman lost all three of her daughters and her parents due to a fire caused by cleaning out the fireplace, so Santa could come down the chimney. The  ashes were put in a box that started a fire in the night.  It's easy to say that's stupid, people should know better.  A lot of the people who say that though have no experience with ashes.  They assume people are placing glowing embers in a container that can burn.  The choice is obvious that you wouldn't do that, so they were stupid. That's not the case.  Those ashes are merely warm and probably you could scoop them with your hand.  You have to really know that merely "warm" ashes piled in a flammable container can get hotter given some time than the flash point of the box.  I never used to believe it either, it somewhat defies common experience - warm doesn't burn.

You could fault them for all skiing on the same slope at essentially the same time.  You could perhaps say that was "stupid" but then that assumes they knew not to do that on slopes that are in danger of sliding.  They either didn't know such protocol, or they really didn't consider that the slope would slide. I suspect it's the latter, that skiing in a resort known for "The most grooming on earth", and having received a mere 9 inches of snow, that they didn't consider the slope would slide, or even if it did that the consequences would be inescapable.

Let's not forget that they were 13 years old also.

The only way to reduce the occurrence  of  this type of incident is to educate people, and probably particularly kids.  The reasons and conditions of why slopes slide, what to do, and also that mountains are mountains whether they're labeled Vail, Keystone, A-Basin or Snowbird.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rachelv 

This whole thing is just really sad and really unfortunate.

 

I've made far stupider decisions than this as an adult, honestly. I mean, 9" isn't *that* much snow and it's understandable that you wouldn't check an avy forecast before a resort day. The kid probably looked uphill, saw some nice turns, and thought he'd go get them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick 

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2OnSnow 

It seems at this point that he triggered it and he was the one to die. But, what if he had brought that down on others and someone else dies with him.

 

THIS IS NOT THE SNOW YEAR TO " looked uphill, saw some nice turns, and thought he'd go get them". We had a bad start to the snow base this year. I'm hearing from lots of snow pros that it is a worse than usual base that they expect to lead to a high number of avalanches.

 

Go BC to get your turns. Stay out of the closed areas! I cant remember ever seeing so much spontaneous sliding at Vail as I have the last 4 days.

If you read segbrown's post you'll see that they didn't ski a closed area, or at least they they did not duck a rope, as was reported earlier. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown 

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120123/NEWS/120129931/0/FRONTPAGE

 

......[stuff about accident, chest trauma was the culprit, see link]

 

 

 

Two access gates

Vail Resorts issued the following statement Monday: “On behalf of Vail Resorts and Vail Mountain, we extend our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the young man in the tragic incident that occurred on a closed area of the Prima Cornice trail yesterday. It is our understanding that the boys entered through a lower gate and hiked to the closed terrain.” 

Two gates provide access to Prima Cornice. Those gates are named Upper Prima Cornice and Lower Prima Cornice.

The Upper Prima Cornice access gate was closed. The lower access gate was open, said Don Dressler, with the U.S. Forest Service.

“They did not duck a rope,” Dressler said.

Dressler spent all day Monday helping with the investigation, working with the Colorado Avalanche Information Center, Eagle County Sheriff's investigators, and the Vail Ski Patrol.

Dressler went over the Vail Ski Patrol's protocol and what happened before, during and after the accident. He said they did everything as they should.

“I had to see it for myself,” Dressler said. “This case is a little different because it's inside the ski area. This one is the hardest one I've ever worked on. It's never easy to have a fatality and it's even harder when it's a child.”

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown 

Yeah, I think the area was technically closed, but as you know, things are ambiguous in that type of terrain. It isn't as if there is an entrance to the run, a rope, and that's the only way you can access it. You can't rope off the entire area. I was just having this dilemma on Monday, off S chair at Copper, around Little Trees. Some of it was roped from the top, but there were open gates and people had obviously traversed to an area below what was closed at the top. I stood and looked at one section for a few minutes, trying to figure out if it was open or not. I was pretty sure the traversable part had been roped the day before, but it wasn't roped now, and there was a clump of bamboo where that fence had been ... so I assumed it was ok to go past it. 

 

I'm not sure I know exactly where these boys were, but I think it was a similar situation ... If they skied to the end of the rope, sidestepped up three steps, and traversed into that terrain, who's to say we all haven't done the same thing. If they hiked way farther up, it makes it a little less ambiguous, but still something they probably had done 500 times before. 

Thanks, but I dont' need to read segbrown's post, though I did, as I was skiing Vail this weekend including the day this tragic accident occurred. The run was not "technically" closed...it was closed. Yes the three kids are all 13, but 1) they are good enough skiers to be on that run (one of the more technical spots at Vail), 2) the kids are locals. So, they know what closed means, and they knew exactly where they were going.

I agree that we have probably all done it ourselves before. But IMO, that doesn't mean it isn't stupid. It just means we've gotten away with it. The thing about a rope/closure is that you and I don't know why it's closed. This year in Colorado (and apparently Stevens Pass according to the snowmobile burial I saw on TV this morning) it is a good idea to treat all closures as avi closures.

To paraphrase a very wise mother, "It's all fun and powder 'til someone loses a friend."

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2OnSnow 

 

 

 

 

I agree that we have probably all done it ourselves before. But IMO, that doesn't mean it isn't stupid. It just means we've gotten away with it. The thing about a rope/closure is that you and I don't know why it's closed. This year in Colorado (and apparently Stevens Pass according to the snowmobile burial I saw on TV this morning) it is a good idea to treat all closures as avi closures.

 

 

Except common experience tells you that most closures especially this season are due to lack of snow not avy danger.Should they have been there probably not but I doubt a bunch of 13 year old kids were even considering avalanches as a potential danger in a resort.

Dang, sorry, I forget that things are either BLACK or WHITE around here. 

There are many times that the top entrance to a "run" is closed but the lower part is open. There is not a spot where it is closed HERE and one inch later is it open. I have no idea where on Upper Prima they were; as I said, it could have been that they hiked way up to the closed entrance, and then, yes, file that under willfulness. I'm not ready to say that,  though, because I know there is gray area in such terrain. Of course VR is going to say it was closed terrain, duh. And technically, yes, it probably is. 

However, I can easily picture a scenario in which there was a lot of gray area, so I'm not going to go around calling a kid stupid and celebrating the fact that he's gone from the gene pool (seriously, wtf was that post about??) for making an understandable but ultimately deadly decision.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2OnSnow 

 

The run was not "technically" closed...it was closed. 

Not "technically" -- the run has two gates; the upper gate was closed, the lower gate was open. Same run, two gates. 

Yes, leave Black and White for cookies.

http://smittenkitchen.com/2008/09/black-and-white-cookies/

Have a look at this avalanche. Would you have thought this slope would slide? And that big? It had been skied before, but they didn't make a cut across I guess.

http://youtu.be/6qVwIuznFW0

+++++

In my mind, one the main takeaways from things like this is the need for more avalanche education.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree30 

.....

 

He heard about this incident later and said that is the last rope he will duck- the av risk never occurred to him.

 

.....

 

Agreed.  In Europe, off piste is treated differently and the resorts post the Av risk (1 to 5).  In France recently, I have seen the Av risk mentioned several times on the National Network evening news.  There is a much greater awareness by local skiers from an earlier age of the risk of avalanches in ungroomed terrain.  

Recent Colorado deaths a sad reminder that ski resorts not immune to avalanches

Read more:Recent Colorado deaths a sad reminder that ski resorts not immune to avalanches - The Denver Posthttp://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_19815377#ixzz1kWlR8hFh
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzmtl 

Don't mean to speak ill of the dead, but if you ignore the big sign that says "don't go there or you'll cause an avalanche" and do it anyway, you probably should be weeded out, preferably before you get others killed.

I'll be sure to pass on your kind words to his mother when I see her at his service tomorrow.

I ran into a bunch of folk who knew the kid killed at Vail.  He was a student at Vail Mountain School and was evidently a wonderful kid.  It is so sad to see this happen.

This season has been really slow to start.  There has been very little terrain open.  We've had 46 inches of snow at Copper in 2 weeks.  Everybody is going nuts.  We all forget things, and unfortunately, some of those things are how these dumps can be very unstable.  It's really bad because the snow underneath is so old and weak.  Stuff that would never normally would be a risk is in these conditions.

So, we had a foot at Copper in the last 24 hours.  Be careful out there.

Mike