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Are stock boot liners dead after 40 days?

Poll Results: What is the life expectancy of your average stock boot liner for a good skier?

 
  • 5% (3)
    Under 25 days
  • 10% (6)
    25-40 days
  • 20% (11)
    41-70 days
  • 23% (13)
    71-100 days
  • 23% (13)
    101-150 days
  • 1% (1)
    151-250 days
  • 14% (8)
    251+ days
55 Total Votes  
post #1 of 39
Thread Starter 

To avoid thread jump http://www.epicski.com/t/109401/from-a-slopeside-bootfitter-brief-notes-concerning-sock-choice,

I decided to start a new thread regarding life expectancy of boot liners.

 

What are your thoughts?  What liners have you found to be the most durable?

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiing-in-Jackson View Post

 Since the ski boot liner has a finite life span (about 25-40 days), it is essential to not accelerate this process at all. In a bootfit, make sure you are using as thin a sock as possible. 

Using a padded sock for the fit process kills the liner and can cause sheer if you are not putting your boots on properly. Padded socks have their place, but it is far more limited than you think. The additional material is usually found on heel, shin. Sometimes, I see socks with padding under the metatarsal heads- that's Neuroma waiting to happen! Shear in a ski boot cannot be underestimated.

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

Wow, informative, thanks. you said a liner may be dead after 40 days. I often put 400 days on a liner, hmmm. still learning. how about replacing the liner with intuition or other after market? can that liner be used in future with any boot of same bsl? is there a process to refit the liner to a new boot, after having fit it to the old boot? what liners do you like? I'd like warmth into the deal. what is the life expectancy of an intuition or comparable liner?

 

 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

But - to "Segway" [sic] on to a different topic - what's with the statement below about liner life? Seriously? For me that means one season. For some on this board, that means TWO liners a season. Can you expand on this? What do others think of this claim?

 

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiing-in-Jackson View Post

Yeah, stock liners don't hold up well under the daily pressures of industrial skiing. Guys (and gals) skiing every day have special needs. Among the most important are control and comfort. After finding the correct shell for their foot shape, many industrial skiers toss a stock liner and start with an Intuition liner from day one.
It is generally recognized that a strong skier will power through a stock liner in a couple of weeks. However, some stock liners are very durable and solid.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree30 View Post

 


I thought this was just considered a normal part of the packing out process and is why many serious skiers want something that is a bit too tight initially that then fits them "perfectly" days ~15 to 200+ (with the counter being the myriad of skiers who say their boot fit fine in the shop and their first couple of ski trips, but now feels loose).

 

Your liner life expectancy comment has got me thinking http://www.epicski.com/t/109432/lange-banshee-and-wc-120-advice#post_1420796

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

You mentioned sock padding being a bad thing. I use the Smartwool racer socks which is a thin sock with a little padding on the shin. What is your opinion of them?

 

By the way, my usual course is to get the boots fit with my thinnest ski socks, a Smartwool utrathin I think. Stick with the ultra thins for probably 20-30 days on a new boot and then move into the racers as the liner gets a little looser. The final step as I approach 100 days is to move up to the thicker ski socks, Thorlo etc. that I bought a long time ago before I became as serious about snug boots. I also use very thin liner as one of my criteria in boot selection.

Practically speaking this seems like a good approach for those who want to balance good skiing with real life economics.

 

 


 



Quote:
Originally Posted by SHREDHEAD View Post

I know lot's of strong skiers.  I don't know anyone that goes through liners that fast. 

 

 

post #2 of 39

My liners became looser quickly after about 30 days. Rossi liner in a Lange HP.  Disappointed with their life span.

post #3 of 39

My liners last a long time, but I don't know if that's representative of the average stock liner.  I guess not all liners are created equally. 

 

 

Parts (around the heel pocket) of my stock Solomon Crossmax 10 sensifit liners hav packed out to the point that I'm not all that happy with them, but I'm comparing to very dense and tightly made custom foam liners (which btw seem as if they will last forever), but other parts are still very very snug.

post #4 of 39

My boots come stock with intutions.

 

They seem to last forever.

post #5 of 39

 

And no one has yet noticed that liner life depends on how tight the original shell fit is.      Tighter shell = liner lasts longer.

post #6 of 39

 Nordica Dobermann lace up liner. Available as replacement. Approx 200$

Much better than stock, plus it laces up.  I've had four for one boot shell. (now it's time for the shell also...)

 

Poll is flawed...no, not really. 250 days on a liner?? That shell better be pretty close to the foot. 400 days on a liner it's time for boots.

 

Anyway, this is why bootfitters ask you how much you ski. If you ski 5 days a year, that's 8 years on a liner, so you can go with a "looser" fit. If you ski 50 days a year, you'll want a tighter fit or after a couple months the boot is huge.

post #7 of 39


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

Poll is flawed...no, not really. 250 days on a liner?? That shell better be pretty close to the foot. 400 days on a liner it's time for boots.

Anyway, this is why bootfitters ask you how much you ski. If you ski 5 days a year, that's 8 years on a liner, so you can go with a "looser" fit. If you ski 50 days a year, you'll want a tighter fit or after a couple months the boot is huge.


 

 

Agreed.

 

My new boots get fitted.

tweeked again around 10-20 days.

 

Usually good forr a while.

 

Tweeked again at 30-50 days.

 

New boots at around 100 days.

 

Adjustments and tweaking as needed during the lifespan.

post #8 of 39

If the shell is good, you could get a replacement liner.

You have to be happy with the shell though, and it needs to fit right.

Intuition, Zip fit, Conformable, Nordica Lace up. I don't know if you could get a Strolz liner by itself in your shell.

 

Many choices, none cheap, but if you've invested a lot of time into fitting a shell, they make a lot of sense.

post #9 of 39

HEAD stock liners ass-out after 20 days of aggressive carving.

 

I wonder if they almost expect them to get replaced, like footbeds.

post #10 of 39

Not everyone's "day" is the same .....

 

Heck, minutes vary just as wildly!! 

post #11 of 39

A hundred days on the ole Factor linings has my ankle and shin banging around a wee bit.

 

I started out with the minimal buckle tension, and simply go another notch tighter to keep the movement down.

 

Maybe it is time for a fresh set, they still work fine, and the cable lace up still works too, I think a problem is when the tightest buckle setting is not good enough.

 

Maybe a conversation with the local bootfitter is a good idea.

post #12 of 39

This is a depressing thread.  Depressing from the standpoint that I would be spending more on the new liners than I did on the boots in the first place.  Shouldn't I just buy new boots rather than just swapping out liners?  I'm only semi-kidding - there's lots of skiers out there with $200 boots.

post #13 of 39

I like to get at least two seasons from a pair of boots (abt 60 days). My Diabellos came with stock intutions. They are getting a little sloppy and smelly. I am sure that they have many more days that I could put on them but I am looking forward to getting a stiffer pair for next year.

BTW- I am super happy with the Intuitions. They are probably the warmest boot I have owned.

post #14 of 39

I have been looking at new boots in the $600 range and many of them have what appear to be very cheesy liners. The Salomon's I am considering are notoriously cold with the stock liners.  I have made inquiries and they will not sell just shells, so I am looking at new boots with an immediate $125 extra charge to upgrade to Intuitions.

post #15 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Singleton View Post

I like to get at least two seasons from a pair of boots (abt 60 days). My Diabellos came with stock intutions. They are getting a little sloppy and smelly. I am sure that they have many more days that I could put on them but I am looking forward to getting a stiffer pair for next year.

BTW- I am super happy with the Intuitions. They are probably the warmest boot I have owned.



The smelly part probably means they didn't dry out very well (or perhaps your personal hygiene needs some tweaks).  Probably not going to make a huge difference in the liner life...but the smell is something that could be taken care of.

post #16 of 39

25 to 40 days? At that rate I'd go through 4 pair a year. As it is I've got about 250 days on my stock intuitions and have no plans to replace them any time soon. 

 

 

 

 

post #17 of 39
My Head pro race liners, look and feel like new after 50+ days. Helps that they are leather, but they have never been warm, so no changes here, they feel more molded to my feet, which is good.
post #18 of 39

Stock liners vary so much in quality that blanket statements about their fit and life-span are hard to make. Some are excellent and designed to fit after heating; for example the telemark boots (BD, Garmont, Scarpa, Crispi) come with good liners that can be refitted, and new ones can be purchased. But some otherwise fine boots (the Jr Dobermans for example) come with atrocious liners that pack out and soak up water. The aftermarket liners (ZipFit for example) fit well, are durable, and don't hold water. I am currently happy with foam liners (Surefoot) because my high instep has made boot-fitting difficult.

 

I wish that boots were available as the shell only (but cheaper than with the stock liner!), with the liner a separate purchase. I have several pairs of little-used stock liners in my cluttered gear closet.


Edited by Dr Deeg - 1/29/12 at 8:16pm
post #19 of 39

If you're a "serious" skier (as many of us are on Epic), then you should be serious about your liners (and your shells).  My advice is to completely forget about the liner when you're shopping for ski boots.  Find the shell that fits as closely as possible and matches your foot anatomically.  Then decide if the stock liner is going to work for you.  If not, then great because you're going to be much better off in the long run with a replacement liner (exception - there are some stock liners from Intuition and high-end race boots that will perform well).  Yes it's a lot more coin, but it's the most important ski gear you'll own.

 

I have many friends and acquaintances that have been led astray by the fit of the new liner.  Many manufacturers "short last" their liners (they're significantly smaller than the shell) and you end up with a sloppy fit soon after purchase because you bought a shell that's too large. 

 

I believe that most skiers fool themselves into thinking their sub-par stock liners are still OK past 25 days because they haven't noticed that they're cranking down their buckles more and more.  Here's a comparison benchmark for anyone reading this - can you comfortably ski in your current boots without any buckle tension - only using the top strap cinched up?  If you don't feel you have control over your skis without using your buckles then I believe you can do better and you should too.  When you have a great fit from the correct shell and a quality liner that provide control without cranking your buckles, you'll also find higher degrees of comfort and warmth.  Just my $0.02 rolleyes.gif

post #20 of 39

Dunno about stock liners but I'm into my 13th year in my Strolz custom foam boots.  That's averaging 40 - 50 days a year and my days are looooong.  Sure, the Strolz's are expensive upfront (and almost impossible to find in the US), but the custom foamed liners are pretty much the same as the day I bought them.  Same buckle setting every day of every year and no slop.  Never needed to adjust the buckling after each run or unbuckle them at lunch break either.  I spent years in discomfort in off-the-shelf boots of various brands, days spent in the boot fitters trying to get them adjusted right and even a surgeon wanting to operate on "bone spurs" (which went away after time in the foamers).  I've heard critics say custom foamed boots are cold, but my feet stay warm because there isn't a need to over-tighten buckles to get a snug fit. No need for an expensive aftermarket footbed either.  Every couple of years I replace the heel and toe pads worn away by walking to the lifts (yes, they're comfortable for that too).  Downsides?  Apart from the upfront price, they can be hard to get into when the boots are cold. Sadly, my Strolz's will have their last run this year as some hairline cracking has appeared near the toes in the shell.  A new pair of Mr Strolz's finest are just around the corner.  :)

 

post #21 of 39

Thanks for this thread, guys! I was starting to think I was going crazy imagining my liners were packing out after about 60 days use on my lange rs 110s. I actually thought they may not have been fitted as well as I'd initially thought. But I'm sure I used to be able to ski with the boots totally unbuckled, other than the cuff. Tomorrow I have an appointment for an intuition liner fitting session at their factory here in Vancouver. Will let you all know if there's a difference. 

post #22 of 39

Nice thread!  Good to know I'm not alone in my confusion on this issue.  I went with progressively thicker socks and foot-beds over the last 2 seasons in my 100+ day Crossmax 10 Solomans with only marginal success.  I tried a pair of Ghosts that were too small and went back to the old shells with new Scarpa (made by Intuition?) liners.  I'm now on my second bake/fitting but am very pleased after finally getting a few full days of skiing in on them.  I took the advice and went with thin socks on the last fitting.  On the second bake I went without the foot-beds and a bigger toe pocket and really couldn't be happier so far.

post #23 of 39

How long should the shells last on a ski boot ?

 

Over the years, I have had to replace revits in 4 differnt sets ski boot shells, tore a heal off & the last 2 sets of ski boots I have had cracked the shells in under a hundred days of skiing.

post #24 of 39

yea if you walk on pavement they can grind away in no time

post #25 of 39

my Fischer Boot/liners seem to be holding up well. into their 3rd season - approx 14 days in them, 2 seasons back when I bought them mid-season, 25 days last season and 12 days so far this season - hoping to get 10 more. Days are usually full 8:30 to 8:45 on the lift, 45 min. lunch, and 3:45- 4:00 PM off. I'm not close enough to any areas to do short or half days.

The liners seem to be well made and haven't packed down much since the initial 5 days. Still using the same lightweight socks and have not had to do more than one micro adjust on any buckles; and that's often temporary. If I've been driving for a few hours and then try to jump into boots, I have to loosen a turn on the instep, because my feet have swelled; then at lunch I usually have to do a turn in to get back to the original setting.

But the last 2 seasons, while at Mammoth, I put them on at 8:15 at the Lodge and never touch them until I take them off at 4 PM. I've never had boots this comfortable - performance is mandatory...

They're so comfortable, I'm occasionally 2nd guessing myself and wondering if I'm leaving some performance on the table - then I come back to my senses, and just ski...

These are not Vacs, just their stock "Performance Fit" heat formable liner.

I was gonna go 'Vac' this season, however with how well these boots are working out, in the combination of 'comfort' and high performance, I think I'll be keeping them for quite a few more seasons, and will happily get replacement liners (either stock or aftermarket), when the stock liners no longer function/fit properly.

... its hard to 'guess' how long they might last.

Only thing I find just a little troublesome - they have a smooth, nylon liner - no fluff, no furrr. They are warm and I do perspire a bit in them. If I don't use a boot dryer after each full day, they retain some of that moisture into the next morning. Changing sock types has not helped with this - I'm stuck using the basic DryGuy Boot dryer.

post #26 of 39

Most stock liners can't possibly do the job where I ski.

 

 Those who ski on natural snow can get away with it for a while, 25-40 days if they don't care about pressure control or edge angle. The lower your skiing skill, the more oblivious you are to a precisely fitted custom boot liner and custom footbed. Since your boots are the link between your strength and mass and the edge of your skis, the better connected you are, the more efficiently you can ski. As a National level competitor in my teens skiing 140 days in a season, I compensated for poor equipment with youth and brute force. Now in my 50's, I can ski more vertical in a day, 35k plus on all 7 days of my ski vacation even after knee injury/surgery.

 

Why?

 

 Perfectly fitted boots!

 

 Starting with 33 yr old Superfeet Custom Kork Skithotics, Tecnica Demon 130's punched for boney bumpy ankles and protruding 5th Met and the most incredibly comfortable Boot Doc Soft Foam Custom Liners.

 Since my previous Tecnica TJR Foam boots went 412 (8hr days walking at demo's, teaching as well as free skiing)  hard not to expect more from my current ones as the shell match is much better.

 Dachstein V4 foam boots in the 80's were my first comfortable boots and every time I've tried to ski in stock liners since has been disaster, unless I've been teaching on the bunny slope.

 

 Skiing prerequisites:

 

Find a shop with a great bootfitter

Buy all your equipment there!

Love skiing every day, until you die!

When you go to Heaven, your bootfitter will be there.

 

Buy on the internet and sweat for eternity!

post #27 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

 

And no one has yet noticed that liner life depends on how tight the original shell fit is.      Tighter shell = liner lasts longer.


Exactly true. I have the Technica Agent 130 with about 280 days on the stock liner. It doesn't do a whole lot any more, but  it doesn't have to. I can't bear the thought of starting over with fitting boots.

 

Intuition liners are not for everyone. I couldn't use one at all, even though it would have been a good solution for extending the shell life. There is no stiffness in the front of the cuff in the wrap design and the ankle flex of the boot became virtually rigid. and no, there wasn't a problem with the liner or the install.  just not a good match for all boots or people I think.

post #28 of 39

 Powder Jet

 

Shells can last up to 20 yrs try something that has replaceable soles like Tecnica Demon/Cochise... and hinges where your ankles do.
 

Davluri

 

Find someone who can make a Conformable Transfoam liner and foam tongue or Boot Doc soft Foam with foam tongue and you won't have to start over.... but if you wanted, try one size smaller Tecnica Demon 130.

post #29 of 39

11 years in my Strolz boots with original custom foamed leather liners and they're still as snug as they were brand new.  Maybe only 200 days on them though.  And, yeah, still tough to get into at the beginning of the day.  Hope they go a few more years at least~

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snodayz View Post

Dunno about stock liners but I'm into my 13th year in my Strolz custom foam boots.  That's averaging 40 - 50 days a year and my days are looooong.  Sure, the Strolz's are expensive upfront (and almost impossible to find in the US), but the custom foamed liners are pretty much the same as the day I bought them.  Same buckle setting every day of every year and no slop.  Never needed to adjust the buckling after each run or unbuckle them at lunch break either.  I spent years in discomfort in off-the-shelf boots of various brands, days spent in the boot fitters trying to get them adjusted right and even a surgeon wanting to operate on "bone spurs" (which went away after time in the foamers).  I've heard critics say custom foamed boots are cold, but my feet stay warm because there isn't a need to over-tighten buckles to get a snug fit. No need for an expensive aftermarket footbed either.  Every couple of years I replace the heel and toe pads worn away by walking to the lifts (yes, they're comfortable for that too).  Downsides?  Apart from the upfront price, they can be hard to get into when the boots are cold. Sadly, my Strolz's will have their last run this year as some hairline cracking has appeared near the toes in the shell.  A new pair of Mr Strolz's finest are just around the corner.  :)

 

post #30 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


Exactly true. I have the Technica Agent 130 with about 280 days on the stock liner. It doesn't do a whole lot any more, but  it doesn't have to. I can't bear the thought of starting over with fitting boots.

 

Intuition liners are not for everyone. I couldn't use one at all, even though it would have been a good solution for extending the shell life. There is no stiffness in the front of the cuff in the wrap design and the ankle flex of the boot became virtually rigid. and no, there wasn't a problem with the liner or the install.  just not a good match for all boots or people I think.


Intuition makes tongue liners also.

 

As for foam, I had one once and it was a disaster. Wrinkles etc forward of the heel, just didn't fill up the bladder enough. It was done by a good shop too.

I still might try one again, but there's a reason almost no shops do foam anymore. Sometimes it's just the chemicals aren't fresh or simply don't expand enough even though everything was done right. So then the shop is left holding the bag or has an unhappy customer on their hands. It's a lose/lose situation.

If you're going foam, you'll want to do it at a place that does a lot of them.

Where are y'all getting Strolz done in the US?

 

You don't necessarily have to go foam for replacement liner. You can get a Nordica lace up liner to fit in another shell. I use one in a Lange. I like the lace up liner and it makes it much easier to use toe warmers because you put the liner on your foot, then put the foot/liner in the shell.

 

I preferred the tongue on the Lange liner for my shin. The Nordica I found the curve of the tongue was too narrow for my shin and had it widened by heating the plastic. You can order liners from a Nordica dealer or Racestock sports in Waterbury,VT. Also, Bud Heishman who posts here, is in the Ask a Bootfitter forum and owns Snow wind sports can get one for you.

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