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What's becoming of the "Frontside" ski? - Page 12

post #331 of 351

LOL, thankfully my wife is a boarder.  I tell her ski stuff, she takes my word for it.  I am truly blessed. cool.gif

post #332 of 351
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

I also find the Nomad products are rarely on sale.  I'm certainly looking for a good ski, but also a bargain if I can find it.  I see every other set of skis on sale now, yet the Nomads (particularly the Savage and Crimson) are still very expensive.  I can't see the price justification for those, sorry.  I'd love to consider a pair of Crimson Ti, but when I see Rossi Exp. 88, for example, considerably cheaper WITH bindings, I just don't see the point.  The Nomads might be great, but in a sea of other highly regarded skis, they're simply overpriced in my opinion.  Why drop so much more $$$ when there are plenty others on the market that will easily do a great job?  It's not like Nomads are the Veyron of the ski world and can justify a fortune being spent.  Atomic needs to re-examine their pricing structure on the Nomads, particularly the Savage and Crimson; they're being left in the dust at the parking lot compared to some other companies.



No....they absolutely do not.......here's why.

 

Using the Crimson Ti as an example, it is actually priced on the low side of comparable models. Atomic Crimson Ti = $949 w/bindings.

 

Other Comparables w/bindings..................

 

Volkl RTM 84 = $999

Blizz Mag 8.7 = $999

K2 Aftershock = $999

Nordica Jet Fuel $1049

Salomon Enduro 850 = $999

Fischer Progressor 1000 = $1099

Rossi Exp 88 = $899 (but it is not a comparable ski to the others above)

 

If you can't find a Crimson Ti on sale, tough noogies for you, but that is not the fault of Atomic's pricing. Their goal is not to have skis left over in the pipeline for you to buy on sale. If they are sold out or are commanding a higher price, good for them. That situation indicates success on their part and it is because of market demand not faulty pricing policies from the company.

 

SJ

post #333 of 351



icon14.gificon14.gif

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post



No....they absolutely do not.......here's why.

 

Using the Crimson Ti as an example, it is actually priced on the low side of comparable models. Atomic Crimson Ti = $949 w/bindings.

 

Other Comparables w/bindings..................

 

Volkl RTM 84 = $999

Blizz Mag 8.7 = $999

K2 Aftershock = $999

Nordica Jet Fuel $1049

Salomon Enduro 850 = $999

Fischer Progressor 1000 = $1099

Rossi Exp 88 = $899 (but it is not a comparable ski to the others above)

 

If you can't find a Crimson Ti on sale, tough noogies for you, but that is not the fault of Atomic's pricing. Their goal is not to have skis left over in the pipeline for you to buy on sale. If they are sold out or are commanding a higher price, good for them. That situation indicates success on their part and it is because of market demand not faulty pricing policies from the company.

 

SJ



 

post #334 of 351

Point taken SJ.  In the end, they have the freedom to price how they want, and I have the freedom to buy from another manufacturer if I want.

 

I do have a question though: why do you say the Rossi E88 is not comparable?  Can you clarify please?  How so.....in terms of quality, ability, versatility, etc??  Thanks!

post #335 of 351

Ok, just got back from industry demo at Snowbasin.  Tested this category very thoroughly, some very good skis out there.   Here are a few highlights that really stood out of the crowd for me.  Some of these comments are going to echo those of Phil and SJ, but I think that they deserve reinforcement.   

 

Big surprise for me was the new flipcore Blizzard Magnum's, they were absolutely outstanding, 95%+ of the technical prowness of the old style Magnums with a ton more range and off-piste ease... Kudos to Blizzi. 

 

Another pleasant surprise was the Dynastar Outland 87, I kind of think that this is a real "sleeper", the Cham series will be getting the most attention from Dynastar, but this Outland 87 is an absolutely top performer with a great balance of skills.    

 

Rossi Pursuit HP Ti, also a ton of fun, quick and full of life (kind of a departure from the usual Rossi dampness), but very groomer/firm snow oriented.

 

Volkl Kendo with the addition of early rise.  IMO, took a good ski and made it great.  Volkl addicts will be pleased.

 

Kastle MX 83... Holy Horsepower, Batman!   This one is gonna be good!

 

Line Prophets... Not new, but haven't skied them in several years.  I was shocked!  These skis just rip!  If you haven't tried them you owe to yourself to give them a spin.  This from an "old guy" that likes technical skis... 

 

 

post #336 of 351
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

Point taken SJ.  In the end, they have the freedom to price how they want, and I have the freedom to buy from another manufacturer if I want.

 

I do have a question though: why do you say the Rossi E88 is not comparable?  Can you clarify please?  How so.....in terms of quality, ability, versatility, etc??  Thanks!



The E88 is not the hard snow baised ski that all the others that I listed are. It takes some pretty serious attention to the gutz, dampening, and balance of the ski to make an 88 (ish) mm ski work exceptionally well on hard snow. The Crimson (and others) have those gutz but the E88 doesn't. OTH, the E88 is much more comparable to the Blizz Bushwhacker, K2 Rictor, Dynastar Legend 85.....etc all of which are more mixed snow biased skis. Sure enough, the prices among those models are comparable to the lower priced E88.

 

SJ

post #337 of 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhand View Post

Ok, just got back from industry demo at Snowbasin.  Tested this category very thoroughly, some very good skis out there.   Here are a few highlights that really stood out of the crowd for me.  Some of these comments are going to echo those of Phil and SJ, but I think that they deserve reinforcement.   

 

Big surprise for me was the new flipcore Blizzard Magnum's, they were absolutely outstanding, 95%+ of the technical prowness of the old style Magnums with a ton more range and off-piste ease... Kudos to Blizzi. 

 

Another pleasant surprise was the Dynastar Outland 87, I kind of think that this is a real "sleeper", the Cham series will be getting the most attention from Dynastar, but this Outland 87 is an absolutely top performer with a great balance of skills.    

 

Rossi Pursuit HP Ti, also a ton of fun, quick and full of life (kind of a departure from the usual Rossi dampness), but very groomer/firm snow oriented.

 

Volkl Kendo with the addition of early rise.  IMO, took a good ski and made it great.  Volkl addicts will be pleased.

 

Kastle MX 83... Holy Horsepower, Batman!   This one is gonna be good!

 

Line Prophets... Not new, but haven't skied them in several years.  I was shocked!  These skis just rip!  If you haven't tried them you owe to yourself to give them a spin.  This from an "old guy" that likes technical skis... 

 

 


Man, the Outland 87 is the best ski in Dynastar's lineup, at least in the mixed snow I have skied it in.  Very competent in any condition, but really rips when you get it into cruddy snow and bumps. Glad you liked it to. This might be the ultimate lift-line ski. 

 

MX83 was a blast to ski.  My new favorite frontside-all mountain ride.  Also great in bumps. 

 

Didn't know you were at the SB demo. We should have gotten some turns together. 

 

I also love the new Magnums.  

 

I didn't find a "new favorite" ski at the demo though: it turns out the 2 I liked best are the ones I already own: Kastle FX94 and Elan 888, at least for those conditions.  I could have traded either for the E88 and still been happy, as well as the Outland.  There weren't a lot of new models, at least not in that bread and butter range that the demo conditions presented.  We skied a bunch of wider stuff as well, but it was harder to get a read on them, with only a little fresh.  

 

post #338 of 351

I ended up picking up a used pair of Progressor 9+s.  Not quite as cheap as old race skis but right in the radius range I wanted.  Thanks for all the hard snow advice!

post #339 of 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusBrody View Post

I ended up picking up a used pair of Progressor 9+s.  Not quite as cheap as old race skis but right in the radius range I wanted.  Thanks for all the hard snow advice!



You should enjoy them, they are a very nice frontside ski!

 

post #340 of 351

I don't want to get sucked into the global merits of "88's" vs. carving skis for hard-snow performance as there really is no discussion here; of course a ski tailored to hard snow will out-perform anything else on that surface. But as SJ so considerately points out, industry-wide interest in non-race skis under 80mm underfoot is waning in favor of multiplying options in the 88 range.  As a result, the number of flavors and sensations available at roughly 88 underfoot are all across the map.  To me, some are transparently carving skis (wide carving skis, yes, but still carvers) that could spend their lives on the east coast and never skid a turn. Others in the same conditions would feel like driving a bus missing a wheel. Some are twinned, some are center-mounts, some have deep-delta shovel-to-waist dimensions, some not, some have tips that connect instantly to hard snow (faux rocker), some will never know what hard snow feels like because they will never touch it. I recently skied about 20 models all from 87 - 90 mm underfoot and no two models skied alike. While this evolution seems to happening at the expense of skis better adapted to hard snow, it's not like America has no choices in the hard-snow genre. (As SJ notes, Nordica kills it in this area, and there are plenty of other no-slouch options.)  So shed no tears for this category as it will always be here. The plus side of this development is the range of sensations available at 88 is so enormous it simply has to include something for everyone.  The downside is that all this choice means making the wrong choice more likely.  (Let me hasten to point out that the option of getting a "true" carver plus a fat ski and skipping over 88's entirely isn't a bad one.  But as a westerner, an 88 is my carver,)  

 

Of course with the explosion of boutique and handmade brands there are many more than 20 88's in the 2013 model world. So I haven't seen everything, but of what I have seen, I present this capsule of my five favorites:

  • Atomic Crimson Ti - "The ski that never says, 'No.'" Nimble and powerful (a rare combo), with an edge that wouldn't shake loose if you skied over a land mine.
  • Nordica Steadfast - Nordica talks about the I-Core, a red herring if there ever was one. This ski is all about it's remarkable glass lay-up that lets it ski like it had two sheets of metal in it. Blows me away with its stability on edge at speed and crud-busting power in an 88. 
  • Blizzard Bushwacker - Introduces the term, "playful" to the 88 category. Skis like Tigger - bouncy and fun. Likes its turns short and poppy. 
  • Volkl Kendo - They say it's rockered.  Ha! Can still initiate from just behind the shovel at the very top of the turn (which rockered skis do not do). Still a benchmark ski for the skilled skier.
  • Rossi E88 - Great auto-pull into the turn, likes making turns and skiing under control.  Great ski to open up more of the mountain to the average Joe while gently encouraging better carving skills, i.e., what a lot of people want/expect from their new skis.  

 

Ciao for now. 

post #341 of 351

A little disappointed they added rocker to the Kendo.  Nothing is sacred.  Why add rocker to a board that is really designed otherwise as a hard snow focused ski?  I thought that's what the mantra was for?  I like a normal camber firm conditions ski in that 85-ish range... a dying breed. 

 

The Magnums have front rocker as well right, all the way through the line?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhand View Post

Ok, just got back from industry demo at Snowbasin.  Tested this category very thoroughly, some very good skis out there.   Here are a few highlights that really stood out of the crowd for me.  Some of these comments are going to echo those of Phil and SJ, but I think that they deserve reinforcement.   

 

Big surprise for me was the new flipcore Blizzard Magnum's, they were absolutely outstanding, 95%+ of the technical prowness of the old style Magnums with a ton more range and off-piste ease... Kudos to Blizzi. 

 

Another pleasant surprise was the Dynastar Outland 87, I kind of think that this is a real "sleeper", the Cham series will be getting the most attention from Dynastar, but this Outland 87 is an absolutely top performer with a great balance of skills.    

 

Rossi Pursuit HP Ti, also a ton of fun, quick and full of life (kind of a departure from the usual Rossi dampness), but very groomer/firm snow oriented.

 

Volkl Kendo with the addition of early rise.  IMO, took a good ski and made it great.  Volkl addicts will be pleased.

 

Kastle MX 83... Holy Horsepower, Batman!   This one is gonna be good!

 

Line Prophets... Not new, but haven't skied them in several years.  I was shocked!  These skis just rip!  If you haven't tried them you owe to yourself to give them a spin.  This from an "old guy" that likes technical skis... 

 

 



 

post #342 of 351

Here's my new answer. Every ski is a frontside ski. 

 

 

roflmao.gif

post #343 of 351
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver8 View Post

A little disappointed they added rocker to the Kendo.  Nothing is sacred.  Why add rocker to a board that is really designed otherwise as a hard snow focused ski?  I thought that's what the mantra was for?  I like a normal camber firm conditions ski in that 85-ish range... a dying breed. 

 

The Magnums have front rocker as well right, all the way through the line?

 



 



Volkl added rocker to the Kendo for the same reason that many other brands have done so with their skis in this range or even narrower ones. They think they need it in order for a ski to be relevant in the market.  Note that the continuous rockered RTM 84 sold much better than the Kendo this year despite the Kendo being arguably a better ski. In the past couple of years, there has been a fair bit of "marketing rocker" applied to skis in this width range. That refers to rocker that exists in the minds and hearts of the marketing and sales departments of ski companies but notsomuch in the engineering or production rooms. I coined that term after coming back from a Salomon intro some years back when they had just introduced the "Lord" and were billing it as having rocker. It wasn't there and yet Salomon rode that marketing ploy for some time.

 

So.....does rocker detract a bit from the pure hard snow carver?......sure, of course it does. Just go ski a Head magnum or a Course Ti and then see how well the mid 80's rockered skis stack up. OTH, ski that same hard snow rocket in 4-6" of chop over a rough, chalky, wind scoured base and then compare it to a new Blizzi Mag 8.5 or a Dynastar Outland 87. Light bulbs will go off and organ music will be faintly playing in your ears. As I said from the very start here, there is plenty out there for us to play on but the manufacturers know that the versatility story is going to sell more skis than the precision story. Hence that is what the marketing push is and what ya'll will hear about.

 

Yes, the new Mag 8.0 and 8.5 skis have tip and tail rise in all models. It is pretty subtle and the skis work very well but they are tools of versatility rather than precision.

 

SJ

post #344 of 351

I wonder if rocker and wider skis is the new permanent norm.

 

In golf, with the advent of the Pro V1 golf ball (solid-core layered golf ball), in time pros never went back to the liquid-filled wound balata golf balls (which spinned more, offered more "control," etc).  Same deal with graphite shafts (which technically make it harder to control drives/have a feel for the club-head).

 

Is full camber and sub-70 going to be history in time?  Rossi and Atomic (next year) are putting rocker on their race-stock GS skis.  This is crazy.

post #345 of 351

The reason for rocker being incorporated in the GS skis is mostly due to the insane new 195cm + 35m radius rules.  There's nothing in the new rules about incorporation of rocker, so the manufacturers are using rocker to create quicker turning skis for the race course.

 

Pardon the thread drift...

post #346 of 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

The reason for rocker being incorporated in the GS skis is mostly due to the insane new 195cm + 35m radius rules.  There's nothing in the new rules about incorporation of rocker, so the manufacturers are using rocker to create quicker turning skis for the race course.

 

Pardon the thread drift...



I thought "contact point" was used in "official" radius mesurements... maybe not?

 

If not, things are going to get interesting...

post #347 of 351
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

I wonder if rocker and wider skis is the new permanent norm.

 

In golf, with the advent of the Pro V1 golf ball (solid-core layered golf ball), in time pros never went back to the liquid-filled wound balata golf balls (which spinned more, offered more "control," etc).  Same deal with graphite shafts (which technically make it harder to control drives/have a feel for the club-head).

 

Is full camber and sub-70 going to be history in time?  Rossi and Atomic (next year) are putting rocker on their race-stock GS skis.  This is crazy.


This is also incorrect.

 

Atomic is putting rocker in the tip of the rec race skis but not the FIS skis. Rossi had rocker on the retail race stock FIS models this year and the reception was lukewarm at best. It still exists on the 2013 retail race stock FIS models but is far from universal on the pool skis. Rocker may in fact have some application on the >35m skis but applying this tech to current 23-27m skis makes no sense at all and is certainly not the reason for it's use on the smaller current skis.

 

SJ

 

post #348 of 351

I have a friend who just came back from 35M GS ski testing with the NorAm level racers and he said that almost all the manufacturers now have something brewing with rocker in the tips.  In fact he said that the new skis are running faster and turning more quickly than the current crop.  So I'm not sure what the FIS was really trying to accomplish (they openly stated it was for safety), but it's my friend's feeling that you're going to see GS races next season that are going to be much less safe.

post #349 of 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

Most skiers are intermediates who ski groomers and try to survive


<raises hand>

That's me you're talking about.

 

I skimmed this thread and most posters have the advanced-to-expert skier in mind.  We recreational skiers are severely underrepresented :)

 

So take me for example:

I live in Southern Ontario, drive the kids to once-a-week skiing programs and try to have some fun on the groomed slopes myself while I'm there.  That comes to 8-10 days a year, going on some 5 years.  I'm small (5'4", 125lb), not as young as I used to be and my technique is probably nothing to write home about.

 

I'm currently skiing on Head Monster im72 @156cm that I bought on advice from this and other forums.

If I could demo other skis, which ones would you suggest I try?  Something in the "price point" category (preferably with previous years' models available) that will feel responsive but stable and forgiving (if such combination is possible)?

 

Thanks,

Alex.

 

post #350 of 351
Thread Starter 

Try an Atomic Blackeye Ti or Rossignol Avenger 76 Basalt for starters. Both are very good skis that outperform their price points.

 

SJ

post #351 of 351


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post

Try an Atomic Blackeye Ti or Rossignol Avenger 76 Basalt for starters. Both are very good skis that outperform their price points.

 

SJ



 

Rossignol Avenger 76 Ti that's my next skis.icon14.gif

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