If this report (admittedly one sided) is even partially accurate....those EMT's have some serious 'splaining to do.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/52238-widow-emts-took
If I am reading it right, among many other WTF's, they turned BACK to the hill with a dead patient?
I'm really not very pro-litigation, but it's a good thing for the defendants (I'm assuming there will be a lawsuit) that I won't be sitting on the jury.
I've had two friends in the past week that had similar severe chest trauma (both had punctured lungs) who are both in rehab now. I don't know if this guy could have lived or not, but it sure doesn't sound like they gave him much of a chance. By contrast to splinting the elbow, my one friend had a leg broken so badly that it was classified "partial amputation", he kept asking them to do something about it, and they kept telling him, "we'll deal with that, when you are stable".
not a good way to start the day reading that. One of the saddest stories on here. I hope there is some closure for the family.
With that said Groomers are dangerous. Whens the last time we heard about a death at MRG?
A lot of accusations here, since when does anyone other than a Dr. have the authority to pronounce a death, hmmmmm...............interesting
These accusations from a Nurse Practitioner, wanting to hold the patients hand with no other effort to intervene. Something doesn't sound right.
The more I think about it, the more the story as described makes absolutely no sense. Either the wife is confused/mistaken, or that truly is the worlds worst ems system.
The more I think about it, the more the story as described makes absolutely no sense. Either the wife is confused/mistaken, or that truly is the worlds worst ems system.
Although this is truly tragic, what hasn't come out is the EMT's side of the story. In the spirit of innocent until proven guilty, we need to hear their side. The first thing that popped into my cynical, skeptical mind when they said she was a veteran ICU Nurse practioner and wondered how much was she in the EMT's faces trying to tell them how to do their job. "They refused my help and the didn't even have an IV in" and "she ended up performing cardiopulmonary resuscitation on her own husband."
I cannot think that any EMT would be that callous as to "ignore" a critically injured patient. If they did then they deserve the full extent of punishment.
The more I think about it, the more the story as described makes absolutely no sense. Either the wife is confused/mistaken, or that truly is the worlds worst ems system.
Sad......but very true.
Johnny
Well, so far the hospital and ambulance companies are pretty much "Umm...What? We are looking into it."
snip
"None of these allegations have been made to the hospital to the best of my knowledge," said Ralph Johnson, chief information officer for Franklin Memorial Hospital. "We certainly take this seriously and will begin an investigation into it immediately."
...
Johnson also had no answer as to why EMTs turned around and returned to Sugarloaf. He said the ambulance had been dispatched from the NorthStar base in Carrabassett Valley. He did not know the names of the paramedics involved, nor could he speak as to whether they were on any kind of administrative leave in the wake of Thursday's incident.
"The bottom line is this: the hospital was caught completely off guard here as we were not even contacted by any family member," Johnson said.
snip
/For patrollers, what exactly would you do with a dead body brought BACK to you from the ambulance after leaving unstable but alive? Not saying that really happened in this case as again, NOTHING in this story makes sense, just curious.
OK, this story has put a complete "burr under my saddle" (grandpa saying). Not so much centered around what the EMS did or did not do (although that concerns me), but from the joke that has become "journalism." The papers (local to begin with, then parroted from some more regional papers) publish what (if taken at face value) is an UNBELIEVABLE, highly sensational story. This happened 5 days ago now. To date (as far as I can tell) there has been no follow up other than calling the hospital to ask what happened, and simply printing the "were looking into it." Did any "journalists" ask ANY pertinent questions such as: (I understand that many if not most of the answers may have been evasive or "no-comment", but even stating that there was no comment is something, especially after printing the unbelievable story to begin with)
-to the patrol/hill-clinic: "Umm...did the injured skier return to here after leaving in the ambulance? What was his condition on leaving/returning?"
-to the wife (have to phrase carefully): "How did you make funeral arrangements? (roundabout way of asking did the funeral home pick him up at the hill)"
-to the county coroner/EMS director/ED director: "Is is standard practice for EMS personnel to be able to call an end to a code and pronounce death?"
-Ask...well damn near anybody in a marginally related field "Does this seem right to you?"
-etc....
I picture a bunch of 20 something goobers all sitting around at various papers perusing the Internet, assuming that "someone" will eventually do some actual work and post it so they can all jump on it and cut-and-paste into tomorrows story. The echo chamber at work.
I am NOT saying all this because I am really that concerned that I (a continent away with no connection to this story other than being a medical professional) am not getting the full story. I am more concerned that this is simply an example of the degradation of the 4th estate into a self propagating blog loop with no real investigative ability. I truly believe that a fully functioning, credible, free press is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for a free society. Emphasis on credible...free for all, any body's opinion has equal weight Internet nonsense does not count.
Ok, yeah... it is a large jump from crappy reporting on a local ski area accident to the death of democracy....but I made it, and only mostly kidding
EDIT: The only thing the original story (from a medical standpoint) was missing was bigfoot arm wrestling with Shirley Temple. Where, in either the original or followup pieces way ANY mention of verified, verifiable, or unverified FACTS (and there were several that could have been fairly easily checked). I submit that facts are irrelevant to journalism today
/rant off
//You may now return to your regular browsing
And...."Get off my lawn!"
/have an onion in my belt
//was the style back in my day
Yeah, I'm really curious to hear the rest of the story from the EMS crew. I'm an EMT and there are all kinds of things in that article that sound like to me she doesn't know a thing about EMS. It does sound strange that they went back to the patrol clinic though...
Are you kidding me! If they left wife off in the road... If they went back to the mountain... If the events that happened in the patrol shack are true, this is a terrible situation. Totally unacceptable - if it is true. Seriously TS, what has been reported is outrageous.
A follow-up article from the Halifax Chronicle Herald: http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/52702-maine-hospital-probes-death-ns-man
A different staff writer, but no one seems to be asking or getting answers to OP's questions listed in post 10.
I would really like to know what happened. None of that initial account makes much sense.
Joe
A follow-up article from the Halifax Chronicle Herald: http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/52702-maine-hospital-probes-death-ns-man
A different staff writer, but no one seems to be asking or getting answers to OP's questions listed in post 10.
I would really like to know what happened. None of that initial account makes much sense.
Joe
This is pretty much a rehash of the original story with no new information. So many holes to be filled in that it just screams "there is a lot more to this story that isn't being said", like if you read the Morning Sentinel article, it says she said she was dropped 1/2 a kilometre away from the hill, that's just about 550 yards, not exactly the middle of nowhere. The whole thing is just head-shaking strange
No it's not exactly in the middle of nowhere, but that happened to me when a family member was on board and in such serious condition,,, I'd be rip-shit. Again, a cleared picture of what happened is needed to judge things here. But fkna.
Once a qualified EMT or Paramedic makes the "internal bleeding" call the ambulance should have been out of the question immediately. Now you are dealing with "golden hour" and a helicopter should have been called immediately.
Total BS. Someone screwed up if that guy lived as long as he did after the impact but died in the ambulance.
Poorly trained people that don't know anything about Trauma.
If that happened in Northern New Jersey, for example, that guy would be alive right now.
I also would put some blame on the mountain for not calling the chopper too. Just make the call - it's someone's life. Once you suspect internal bleeding you just make the call.
Up here in Quebec there is no medical chopper. Fortunately, the hill where I patrol has two hospitals that are located less than 10 minutes away. Such is not the case of several other resorts unfortunately.
Once a qualified EMT or Paramedic makes the "internal bleeding" call the ambulance should have been out of the question immediately. Now you are dealing with "golden hour" and a helicopter should have been called immediately.
Nothing groundbreaking, but at least this story mentions some of the "known unknowns"
One interesting snippet....
From the widow:
“I will file a formal complaint to ensure the details are available for their investigation, as the printed details in The Chronicle Herald are not even touching the surface,” she wrote to the BDN in an email, adding, “I will not provide further comments [as] my focus is my boys.”
I just wrote a really long paragraph that on further consideration I have deleted. Will re-post if the pending facts support. In the meantime....not saying what really happened, but some hypothetical questions.
-We obviously need the other side of the story, but given the time delay (? getting our story straight) and legal constraints..how much more reliable will that side of the story be? Related question, how tightly aligned are the patrollers and the EMS personnel?
-Will re-ask the question..have any patrollers ever had a corpse returned to them from an ambulance crew? What do you think you would do if they did?
-Once patrol has handed over care to an EMS crew, I know you don't have any more legal responsibility, but if you were watching something just wrong (oh...I don't know...maybe like spending 15-30 min splinting a limb in the shack in a patient with blunt force trauma complaining of abdominal pain) would you say something? Don't most moderately sized hills have at least a doc-in-the-box on the hill? Do they have any role after EMS arrival (and assuming willing to transport with a critical patient)? If present is your doc experienced in critical care/trauma or a semi-retired dermatologist or general surgeon who has done nothing but hernia repairs for the last 15 years? I was informed in a prolonged previous thread that 15 years of current daily experience with trauma and critical care is "worse than useless" in the field, so maybe the doc question is mute (still a little butt-hurt about that comment...had to throw it in.)
Once a qualified EMT or Paramedic makes the "internal bleeding" call the ambulance should have been out of the question immediately. Now you are dealing with "golden hour" and a helicopter should have been called immediately. It was snowing. No helicopter available.
Total BS. Someone screwed up if that guy lived as long as he did after the impact but died in the ambulance. Not sure how you came up with this one. No autopsy yet, so you have no clue what the injury was. Despite what you may have seen on TV, some injuries are incompatible with life.
Poorly trained people that don't know anything about Trauma. As in the TV show Trauma, or as in actual trauma? You have no idea what their training or experience is. You also have no idea what they actually did. How on earth can you make this claim?
If that happened in Northern New Jersey, for example, that guy would be alive right now. It didn't happen in Northern New Jersey. It happened in Northern Maine. While it is possible to spend your life within minutes of a Level 1 trauma center, that's not always where the good skiing is. Since you have no idea what his injuries were, or what the treatment was, why are you so sure a NJ paramedic would have saved his life?
I also would put some blame on the mountain for not calling the chopper too. Just make the call - it's someone's life. Once you suspect internal bleeding you just make the call. Anybody else you would like to blame?
"I'm really not very pro-litigation, but it's a good thing for the defendants (I'm assuming there will be a lawsuit) that I won't be sitting on the jury." On the other hand, as a member of the jury, you could make your decision based on facts.
"A lot of accusations here, since when does anyone other than a Dr. have the authority to pronounce a death, hmmmmm...............interesting" I am not sure about since when, but paramedics in Maine can cease resuscitation efforts with approval of medical control.
"Well, so far the hospital and ambulance companies are pretty much "Umm...What? We are looking into it." The actual response was: “Today we have launched our own internal review of what happened in this very tragic situation,” she said. “Until we conduct that review, it would be premature for us to respond to the allegations reported by the press.” Not quite sure how this equates to "Umm...What?"
I am not defending the actions of Sugarloaf Patrol, or Northstar Ambulance. I don't know what they did. I do know that Sugarloaf Patrol is an excellent patrol with high standards and comitted staff. I know that Northstar is well versed in dealing with trauma in a remote setting. I also know that the story, as it has been presented, simply does not make sense. Maybe there was negligence or malfeasance on the part of Patrol or EMS. I don't know, and neither do any of the folks who have been critical.
There are children without a father, and a wife without a husband. Why compound the tragedy by placing blame before the facts are known?
EDIT: The only thing the original story (from a medical standpoint) was missing was bigfoot arm wrestling with Shirley Temple.
/rant off
//You may now return to your regular browsing
It wasn't missing.....it was in the sidebar. :-)
For the record I have a masters in Biology, teach Biology, and am a licensed First Responder - I don't watch House or Trauma on TV.
BUT
You are right, my comments are really without much merit and speculative without truly knowing what exactly went down. Being in Maine in snow stacked the odds against this guy if an air lift was out of the question.
So fair defense by HHTELE.
More info needs to be revealed.
No it's not exactly in the middle of nowhere, but that happened to me when a family member was on board and in such serious condition,,, I'd be rip-shit. Again, a cleared picture of what happened is needed to judge things here. But fkna.
Absolutely agree, but the quote illustrates the lack of details in the story. It was stated she had to "flag down a passing motorist in order to get back" when the resort was in fact a very short distance away. I am sure she could still see the parking lot from where she was. Why she was booted out of the ambulance remains to be seen.
"Well, so far the hospital and ambulance companies are pretty much "Umm...What? We are looking into it." The actual response was: “Today we have launched our own internal review of what happened in this very tragic situation,” she said. “Until we conduct that review, it would be premature for us to respond to the allegations reported by the press.” Not quite sure how this equates to "Umm...What?"
I think I have tried to avoid placing blame (still think so after re-reading my posts...although the "snip/ if you were watching something just wrong (oh...I don't know...maybe like spending 15-30 min splinting a limb in the shack in a patient with blunt force trauma complaining of abdominal pain/snip" may have pushed the line). Have prefaced or ended comments with "we don't know yet." I think whether or not things happened as alleged, the questions I have asked were reasonable "what would you do if something like this happened to you?" scenarios geared toward patrollers, triggered by a really bizarre story.
I think the "Umm...What?" is completely justified, won't back off that one at all. Some things that don't seem to be in much dispute are that the patient left the hill in an ambulance headed for the hospital (that owns the ambulance company), died sometime en route, and then was returned to the hill. 5 days later the hospital states that they had no idea of the situation until the press came to them asking about it, and were starting an internal review. At the very least I would have to question their (both hospital and ambulance co) SOP on what triggers an internal review. If a 102 y/o with heart failure, renal failure, dementia and sepsis dies within 24 hours in the icu, it triggers both internal and external (call to coroner) review (admittedly the coroner invariably declines to formally review the case). If a 41 y/o dies in anything remotely like the circumstances alleged, a response 5 days later of "First we have heard of it" pretty much equates in my mind to "Umm...What?", and suggests that any review triggers are either rusted shut or absent. If the resuscitation efforts were ceased under medical control of someone other than the hospital, the ambulance company should still be conducting a review, and the hospital (as owners of the ambulance company) should at least be aware of it.
I would think it was extremely strange if the hospital WAS saying ANYTHING until everything is settled. The only way I would expect information from the people likely to be referred to as 'Defendant' in the immediate future is if they knew everything she is saying is true and they want to soften the news by saying how sorry they are and how diligent they will be in the future. I want instant gratification as much as anyone, but it should be obvious that the hospital isn't going to put out any information that could haunt them later... or more to the point, saying "we're looking into it" doesn't mean they are incompetent, it means they aren't. I'll wager that they know exactly what happened, why it happened and if it could have been done differently.
It wasn't that they were saying "were looking into it" that is concerning - it is expected. It IS concerning that they said (5 days after the incident) "We knew nothing about this until you (the press) called us"
It wasn't that they were saying "were looking into it" that is concerning - it is expected. It IS concerning that they said (5 days after the incident) "We knew nothing about this until you (the press) called us"
This is NOT what is written in the story, by using " " it would indicate that you are taking a statement word-for-word. The hospital was careful to not say anything except :
"When contacted Saturday, Ralph Johnson, a spokesman for the Franklin Memorial Hospital, said he had not heard of any complaint about the actions of the ambulance driver and paramedics in connection to the accident."
They aren't saying 'we didn't know about the accident' or 'we don't know what happened'. They are saying once she files a complaint they will sit down with her (and most assuredly her lawyer) and explain to her exactly what happened, from their perspective. Basically what they are saying to the press is 'we'll talk to her, you can F* off' (note I didn't use quotations there, because I'm making that part up... like you.) This story / news report is incredibly poorly written and hard to follow so it makes it hard to figure out just what happened, it will probably be a long time before the full story is revealed.
I think I have tried to avoid placing blame (still think so after re-reading my posts...although the "snip/ if you were watching something just wrong (oh...I don't know...maybe like spending 15-30 min splinting a limb in the shack in a patient with blunt force trauma complaining of abdominal pain/snip" may have pushed the line). Have prefaced or ended comments with "we don't know yet." I think whether or not things happened as alleged, the questions I have asked were reasonable "what would you do if something like this happened to you?" scenarios geared toward patrollers, triggered by a really bizarre story.
I think the "Umm...What?" is completely justified, won't back off that one at all. Some things that don't seem to be in much dispute are that the patient left the hill in an ambulance headed for the hospital (that owns the ambulance company), died sometime en route, and then was returned to the hill. 5 days later the hospital states that they had no idea of the situation until the press came to them asking about it, and were starting an internal review. At the very least I would have to question their (both hospital and ambulance co) SOP on what triggers an internal review. If a 102 y/o with heart failure, renal failure, dementia and sepsis dies within 24 hours in the icu, it triggers both internal and external (call to coroner) review (admittedly the coroner invariably declines to formally review the case). If a 41 y/o dies in anything remotely like the circumstances alleged, a response 5 days later of "First we have heard of it" pretty much equates in my mind to "Umm...What?", and suggests that any review triggers are either rusted shut or absent. If the resuscitation efforts were ceased under medical control of someone other than the hospital, the ambulance company should still be conducting a review, and the hospital (as owners of the ambulance company) should at least be aware of it.
I agree 100%.
Had they claimed to have not heard of the incident untill 5 days later, "Umm...What? would have been totally appropriate.
Agree with the need be careful with quotes, however..
"None of these allegations have been made to the hospital to the best of my knowledge," said Ralph Johnson, chief information officer for Franklin Memorial Hospital. "We certainly take this seriously and will begin an investigation into it immediately."
and..
"The bottom line is this: the hospital was caught completely off guard here as we were not even contacted by any family member," Johnson said.
and..
"Today we have launched our own internal review of what happened in this very tragic situation,” she said.
and...
He went on to explain that he contacted NorthStar Ambulance Director xxxxx (I redacted name), who also was unaware of the allegations against his paramedics. This one is a little iffy, might even speak to them being aware that something weird had happened, as he is careful to say that he was unaware of allegations, not that something unusual had happened.
Sounds to me (perhaps only to me) like they are saying....we didn't know about this (note the lack of quotes), when I think they should have been saying...We are aware of the situation and are investigating (which would indicate to me that internal review triggers are in place and functioning). Note that triggering an internal review does NOT imply any wrongdoing, it is simply an indicator of good systems. In any case, I only brought up the up the subject in defense of a "Umm..What?" that I used, by that I meant that the system seemed unaware of anything until called by the press. I am not interested in speculating on any wrongdoing (I DID speculate on whether review systems are in place). We will find out what happened in time.
What I AM interested in speculating on is what some of the members of this forum would do if they found themselves in situations suggested in the allegations (see post #10). Whether or not anything remotely like that happened in this case.
"A lot of accusations here, since when does anyone other than a Dr. have the authority to pronounce a death"
According to Maine EMS protocols, "When the patient is in asystole for greater than 20 minutes, OR unresponsive to advanced cardiac life support with a non-shockable rhythm after 20 minutes of resuscitation" , resuscitation efforts may be terminated. Even a BLS responder can "call" a code and terminate resuscitation after absence of vital signs for 20 minutes, except in cases of hypothermia.
