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Leaning to far inside/uphill need help fixing - Page 2

post #31 of 56

Look at:

 

http://www.youcanski.com/video/jr_technic/Katia_GS_slow.wmv

 

There is very little counter rotation there, her body is by and large turning with her skis. So why is adding counter rotation so many people's first suggestion to the OP?

post #32 of 56
Thread Starter 

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply (and yes I am a Himself)

 

I would like to think of myself (would like to know) that I am significantly better than the guy in the video.  I carve(arc) my turns.  Unfortunately I don't have a video to share (I have been trying all year but it has not happened yet).  After seeing this "argument" here is some more info, I basically taught my self from the watching of others as opposed to getting proper lessons which probably what caused it in the first place.  I may do most of the time but when I notice it is when I am racing.  Racing in the east this year it is a sheet of ice so anytime I am on a decent pitch I will be turned and in order to try and get more edge I will lean into the hill as opposed to using the hips.  As a result I will have too much weight on the inside ski and will have my skis slide out.  

 

Hope this helps clear everything up.  Any further questions I will try to answer quicker. 

 

Thanks for all the help.  I seems to be mentally helping me solve my problem hopefully it helps when I get back on the hill.

post #33 of 56

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skisalot View Post

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply (and yes I am a Himself)

 

I would like to think of myself (would like to know) that I am significantly better than the guy in the video.  I carve(arc) my turns.  Unfortunately I don't have a video to share (I have been trying all year but it has not happened yet).  After seeing this "argument" here is some more info, I basically taught my self from the watching of others as opposed to getting proper lessons which probably what caused it in the first place.  I may do most of the time but when I notice it is when I am racing.  Racing in the east this year it is a sheet of ice so anytime I am on a decent pitch I will be turned and in order to try and get more edge I will lean into the hill as opposed to using the hips.  As a result I will have too much weight on the inside ski and will have my skis slide out.  

 

Hope this helps clear everything up.  Any further questions I will try to answer quicker. 

 

Thanks for all the help.  I seems to be mentally helping me solve my problem hopefully it helps when I get back on the hill.


Outside Pole drags

 

Schlopy's

 

2 of my favorites for creating angulation.  I would also add Javelins for balance against the outside ski.

 

JF

 

 

post #34 of 56

TomB - the mark of a good coach or instructor is first to not be influenced by their own personal bias when giving information or instruction to

others. Without many years of skiing, certifications, and accomplishments can one be effective in giving advise or information. Years of

studying and practicing is good, however, I'd suggest professional help and lessons. Find a mentor, video yourself and continue the quest. There

are different systems ("my MA will always be different...PSIA), however, the movement skills are universal and MA will always be somewhat the same.

Please don't jump to conclusions and listen to others with no personal bias or interpretations. That way you'll get better quicker. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

First let me say that for the example provided by Bob Barnes in the video, I would never have posted anything against pivot slips. That video is not what I imagined when it comes to the OP, especially since he mentioned that he races. But as Skidude72 said, I assumed as much as anyone else.

 

As for pivot slips, I do have a personal issue with them. They managed to instill in me a tendency to pivot my feet at the worst of times. It literally took me years to avoid that, as it became an instinctive method of turning. Mind you, even when I met Bob and Bud, I was not skiing like the person in the video, but what I needed is to kill that ingrained pivoting, even if it was subtle.

 

I do think that my understanding of skiing is far better than what is being suggested here. I spent the last 8 years studying and practicing. My MA will always be different than somebody who follows PSIA, but even I can understand where you guys come from when the skier displays the skills shown in Bob's video.

 

I hope I did not come on too strong, but I love it when such discussion is generated. I just wish skisalot would chime in to tells us more about himself (another assumption on my side, since it could be a 'herself') redface.gif



 

post #35 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

First let me say that for the example provided by Bob Barnes in the video, I would never have posted anything against pivot slips. That video is not what I imagined when it comes to the OP, especially since he mentioned that he races. But as Skidude72 said, I assumed as much as anyone else.

 

As for pivot slips, I do have a personal issue with them. They managed to instill in me a tendency to pivot my feet at the worst of times. It literally took me years to avoid that, as it became an instinctive method of turning. Mind you, even when I met Bob and Bud, I was not skiing like the person in the video, but what I needed is to kill that ingrained pivoting, even if it was subtle.

 

I do think that my understanding of skiing is far better than what is being suggested here. I spent the last 8 years studying and practicing. My MA will always be different than somebody who follows PSIA, but even I can understand where you guys come from when the skier displays the skills shown in Bob's video.

 

I hope I did not come on too strong, but I love it when such discussion is generated. I just wish skisalot would chime in to tells us more about himself (another assumption on my side, since it could be a 'herself') redface.gif



No worries TomB, this is how we all learn!

 

Interestingly when we look at how our turns are initiated at edge change on the spectrum from pivot slips to pure carved turn entries, there are different mechanics and similar mechanics going on.

 

In a pivot slip entry we release the edges and with the help of our anticipated position the ski tips seek the fall line (tips go in first).  On the other end of the spectrum where we are carrying forward momentum, we actually roll the ankles over top of the foot to "twist n tip"  (feet twist right and tip left to make a left turn) to change edges and continue moving forward as the Com moves across the skis.

 

What interestingly remains consistent is the rotary movements of the femurs throughout the turns all through this spectrum from pivot slips to carve, we just add more edge and move more to the inside of the turns to balance.


Edited by bud heishman - 1/18/12 at 9:05pm
post #36 of 56
Thread Starter 

thanks for all the help guys. Big break through, I found the root of the problem and am working on fixing it tonight while skiing.  Too much weight on the inside ski, which took pressure off the out side ski and caused me to lean in in an attempt to engage my edges.

post #37 of 56


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


so doing pivot slips made you pviot every turns?

 

sounds like personal problem and not a drill problem

 

I can do pivot slips, and I can do arc  to arc skiing. The seperation is exactly the same.



I am talking about the habit of pivoting (especially at turn entry, but also to tighten turns). Just about all ski instructors do it and I ski with many of them, level 2 and 3 alike. That is ok if that is their choice. I wanted to kill that ingrained habit and allow pivoting only when necessary. My technique has benefited a lot. 

 

post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post


 



I am talking about the habit of pivoting (especially at turn entry, but also to tighten turns). Just about all ski instructors do it and I ski with many of them, level 2 and 3 alike. That is ok if that is their choice. I wanted to kill that ingrained habit and allow pivoting only when necessary. My technique has benefited a lot. 

 


they are crappy L3s(and even L2) if they are pivoting every turn entry.

 

 

 

 

post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post


 



I am talking about the habit of pivoting (especially at turn entry, but also to tighten turns). Just about all ski instructors do it and I ski with many of them, level 2 and 3 alike. That is ok if that is their choice. I wanted to kill that ingrained habit and allow pivoting only when necessary. My technique has benefited a lot. 

 


TomB

 

Few instructors actually pivot with a pivot point under there feet. What you refer to as a pivot I class as a displacement of the tails of the skis. Doing pivot slips of a high enough standard to pass a level three assessment trains guiding of the tips of the skis. Learning to guide the tips of the skis is the solution to the types of pivoting that you are talking about.

 

fom

 

post #40 of 56


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

 


Outside Pole drags

 

Schlopy's

 

2 of my favorites for creating angulation.  I would also add Javelins for balance against the outside ski.

 

What's a schlopy? 

 

I find javelin turns are tough for people to get right without coaching (ie forcefully turning the lifted ski using the ankle in order to "fake it")

 

I'd add: touching the outside boot cuff

post #41 of 56

Metaphor, I believe 4ster has a nice video clip of him doing Schlopy drill he has posted before!

 

As for the Javelin turns, I agree they are difficult at first which highlights the weaknesses in the skier's balance and movements.  I like to begin without much explanation and just demonstrate the task by simply having them think about turning the weighted ski underneath the lifted ski which remains pointing straight down the fall line with the tail lifted higher than toe.  Then encourage a few changes with the lifted ski by introducing external rotation of the femur, then if they need more help, having them move the lifted foot more toward the tip of the weighted ski while still rotating the femur.

post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


 

 

What's a schlopy? 

 

I find javelin turns are tough for people to get right without coaching (ie forcefully turning the lifted ski using the ankle in order to "fake it")

 

I'd add: touching the outside boot cuff


lol how do you turn your ankle?

 

post #43 of 56

Try traversing while picking up your inside or uphill ski. This should get your weight stacked over the outside or downhill ski.

 

Another drill to maybe try is to do thumper turns. These are pretty simple. As skiing through the turn pick up and then thump your uphill ski on the snow throught the turn. They look goofy but accomplish the same thing as one footed traverses, getting the weight over the downhill or turning ski. 

 

This video should help too. 

 

http://www.thesnowpros.org/index.php/PSIA-AASI/video-gallery/twisting-the-legs-and-feet-for-better-turns

post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post


TomB

 

Learning to guide the tips of the skis is the solution to the types of pivoting that you are talking about.

 

fom

 


I personally find that tipping is the solution to avoid ANY pivoting. Guiding the tips is just another form of pivoting!

 

post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post


I personally find that tipping is the solution to avoid ANY pivoting. Guiding the tips is just another form of pivoting!

 



TomB,

 

You obviously don't understand what I and some of the other instructors mean when we use the term 'guiding the tips. Guiding the tips of the skis creates progressive edge engagement through the turn, lateral pressure transfer from the old outside ski to the new outside ski, effective counter balance and counter action, effective pressure distribution along the length of the ski, it keeps you centered over your feet and promotes seamless transitions. Finally, it allows me to go precisely where I want to go.

 

In short, guiding the tips is not another form of pivoting. Pivoting can be the outcome of guiding the tips but so can the grooves in the snow that so many consider the epitome of groomed skiing.

 

fom

 

post #46 of 56

fatoldman: Guiding the tips of the skis creates progressive edge engagement through the turn, lateral pressure transfer from the old outside ski to the new outside ski, effective counter balance and counter action, effective pressure distribution along the length of the ski, it keeps you centered over your feet and promotes seamless transitions.

 

Wow, you have it the wrong way around. If anything, all those things you listed result in passive "guiding the tips". And you just re-invented "guiding the tips" to suite the discussion. There was a time here when "guiding of the tips" meant having some rotary action going. Where is that now?

 

 

 

post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post


I personally find that tipping is the solution to avoid ANY pivoting. Guiding the tips is just another form of pivoting!

 


Hmmm...as I complete a turn and begin tipping from my uphill edges toward my downhill edges, at some point the uphill edges will release. Unless your skis have some kind of weird really nasty concave tune (eek.gif), the uphill edges will release before the downhill edges are engaged.

 

I find (for me, anyway, this may not be true for anyone else - but I suspect it is) that as soon as the uphill edges release (accomplished by tipping, remember), I must guide the tips through the transition until the downhill edges engage. I may choose to guide them straight, but I still must guide them. If I do guide them straight and allow the new turn to develop only when the downhill edges are engaged, I have an arc-to-arc carve. The straight section may be vanishingly short, but I certainly have to pass through flat to get from one set of edges to the other. And on almost any kind of hill, I have to actively guide through the transition, since gravity wants to do its thing and pull my tips downhill as soon as the edges release.

 

So is this guidance another form of pivoting?

 

Of course, I can always shorten my turn (bumps and trees come to mind) by guiding/allowing the tips to start dropping toward the fall line before the new edges are engaged. It is indeed the common pivot entry. Is it wrong or ineffective? I'd prefer to think it's OK, but maybe I'm grossly mistaken. Do I kick my tails out? No. Am I skidding? Strictly speaking, yes. There is no longer a clean pencil line at the start of the turn. Does a pivot entry prevent me from engaging my downhill edges and developing plenty of angulation well above the fall line? No, it does not.

 

By the way, everybody who thinks they ski without a pivot entry can easily ski 6" of wet goo with a breakable rain crust on top without unweighting, because such conditions make a pivoted turn entry very difficult. If you have to get your skis out of the glop to turn, you're cheating. Try it.

 

Now, as for the OP and the infamous Pivot Slip:

The pivot slip requires a few things in addition to active femur rotation and upper-lower body separation. It requires accurate balance, both laterally and fore-aft. It cannot be done correctly from a position even slightly leaning uphill. It cannot be done correctly from the back seat. It cannot be done correctly with a tail push.

 

It requires accurate (and subtle) tipping to release both edges simultaneously and yet stay on the disengaged uphill edges until reaching the fall line (if you don't, you'll trip over the downhill edges).

 

It requires an active inside half to rotate both feet simultaneously and keep them parallel. Yes, it is two-footed. It is not sequential. Ya got a problem with that??

 

A pivot slip is not a tail-push type skid. If the skier uses a tail-push to finish, the rotation point moves toward the front of the ski and the skier will very likely find himself or herself leaning uphill, making it impossible to start the next pivot downhill.

 

A pivot slip must be initiated with a positive downhill move to achieve release, just like a "real" turn.
 

A pivot slip is one end of a spectrum. Adjust the skill blend (adjust the tipping, among other things), and forward movement happens. It becomes a skidded short-radius turn. Adjust the skill blend more, and it moves progressively toward a pure arc-to-arc carve. The fundamentals remain the same.

 

A good pivot slip sequence looks simple and easy, but it's surprisingly difficult.

 

Maybe the pivot slip isn't an appropriate drill for the OP. There's guessing and assuming going on here. But I very much suspect pivot slips would be a useful learning experience and would help the OP improve his balance, clean up his turns and decrease his times.

 

post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

fatoldman: Guiding the tips of the skis creates progressive edge engagement through the turn, lateral pressure transfer from the old outside ski to the new outside ski, effective counter balance and counter action, effective pressure distribution along the length of the ski, it keeps you centered over your feet and promotes seamless transitions.

 

Wow, you have it the wrong way around. If anything, all those things you listed result in passive "guiding the tips". And you just re-invented "guiding the tips" to suite the discussion. There was a time here when "guiding of the tips" meant having some rotary action going. Where is that now?

 

 

 


TomB,

 

And why would it be to my advantage to try to coordinate seven different actions to produce passive guiding of the tips when by learning to actively guide the tips I get all the of those seven actions as outcomes? Personally, it looks to me like you are the one who has it the wrong way around.

 

Also, I would say that the more you post the more your particular dogma shows.

 

fom

 


PS Of course guiding of the tips implies having some rotary action going on, in particular rotation of the femur in the hip socket, the same type of rotation that is required to tip the skis.

 

PPS I hardly re-invented 'guide the tips' to fit the discussion I've been teaching it to skiers with outstanding results for over twenty years.


Edited by fatoldman - 1/20/12 at 11:57am
post #49 of 56

What is "guiding the tips"? I've seen the term used here a lot but I've never really understood what movements are involved.

post #50 of 56

"Guiding the tips" in general is a focus. It is opposed to pushing or sliding the tails.

Guiding the tips can be a steering maneuver - you are pointing the feet by rotating the leg in the hip socket.

It can also be accomplished by increasing edge angle of the skis while guiding - tipping. We can have huge arguments whether you're still rotating or steering at that point and what percentage tipping and steering. Tipping can come from leg shafts and feet.

 

In a low angle terrain slow to mild speed parallel turn for instance, you can easily guide the tips by purely steering them.

In 3d snow you may just be setting them at an angle in the snow, tipping your platform, but can still use the focus of guiding the tips in an arc. You can also very actively guide the tips - steer them into a shorter arc while tipping the platform.

 

post #51 of 56

Is tipping the tip and cutting a groove into the snow with it that the rest of the ski will follow "guiding the tip"? 

 

We are making this far too complicated; just ski with your inside ski off the snow for a few turns.  When your ski isn't on the snow, you don't have too much weight on it, and you should be able to figure the rest out from there.

post #52 of 56

You're talking about the inside ski there? Well sure, that would be "guiding the tip" technically, but that's not what is referred to.  Usually that excercise has you lifting the tail and drawing with the tip. The tail won't be following a groove made by the tip.

 

This isn't complicated.  It's akin to walking by leading with your foot first.

In fact it can simplify things the most.

"Right tip right to go right. Left tip left to go left."

post #53 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

"Guiding the tips" in general is a focus. It is opposed to pushing or sliding the tails.

Guiding the tips can be a steering maneuver - you are pointing the feet by rotating the leg in the hip socket.

It can also be accomplished by increasing edge angle of the skis while guiding - tipping. We can have huge arguments whether you're still rotating or steering at that point and what percentage tipping and steering. Tipping can come from leg shafts and feet.

 

In a low angle terrain slow to mild speed parallel turn for instance, you can easily guide the tips by purely steering them.

In 3d snow you may just be setting them at an angle in the snow, tipping your platform, but can still use the focus of guiding the tips in an arc. You can also very actively guide the tips - steer them into a shorter arc while tipping the platform.

 


Thanks Tog, I think I get the idea. Kind of the oppsite of muscleing your skis.

 

post #54 of 56

I know this thread is 2 and a half weeks old already but I'd like to mention personal experience. I've been skiing for 20 years. 18 or them wrong. I started taking weekly lessons last season and progressed more in the past 1 1/2 seasons than all 18 years combined. Sure i skied blacks and sometimes double blacks as long as there were no moguls. Why? It wasn't that I couldn't ski moguls.....it was that I couldn't ski!

 

I was always in the back seat and turning my whole body.....and I didn't even know it. I wasn't even on edge! I've been working really hard and now I'm finally getting the muscle memory where I know when I'm in the back seat and when i'm turning my upper body. The drill that really helped my upper/lower body seperation - Pivot Slips.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #55 of 56
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all the replys. As mentioned above I figured out my problem, with help of course, steaming from having to much weight on the inside ski, which when skiing of a fairly steeped pitch would not allow my outside ski to engage, causing me to panic a little and lean inside to try and engage that edge instead of leaning/reaching down the hill.  So I have been working on that as well as making sure to edge before pressure(the skidding that sometimes ensued a non-edge pressure was another cause to my lean).  All this was going great until I sprained my shoulder two-weeks ago in a colossal fall racing (no film sorry) so haven't done too much skiing (stupidly tried to race again and made it worse).  

post #56 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

I personally would use javelin turns, but then again I teach a modified wearing only one ski javelin turn to never evers now. It makes it so the movements learned in the first hour of skiing transfer directly to what we do as expert skiers.

icon14.gif

I like the way you think, Josh!

*********

skisalot, I would strongly suggest working with a qualified upper-level instructor or race coach. If you're self-taught you're going to have a lot of inefficient and dead-end moves incorporated into your skiing technique. Best to un-learn them earlier, rather than later. The longer you reinforce those moves the harder they are to be rid of, and the longer it will take to un-learn them.

Kneale already said this early in the thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Upper body rotation to turn the skis is a very common problem, especially among folks who are mostly self-taught or coached by friends of a similar training. It's sort of intuitive because it sort of works in a very inefficient manner.
You need to learn to use the skis as a vehicle manipulated from the feet up. When you drive a car, you do not swing your shoulders and butt around when you turn, you manipulate the steering wheel. The skis get steered by movements that tip them off and onto their edges and rotated by movements below the pelvis.
The longer you have skied without good coaching, the more well-coached practice you'll need to get it right. Get some instruction.

but I wanted to re-state it because I know from experience how much work it takes to be rid of those old moves. Twelve years ago I was a self-taught "expert" skier who wanted to re-learn skiing to be more efficient and effective all over the mountain. I still have to work on many of my old habits. Still. They pose fewer functional problems for me now because I've fixed so many things, but I spent a lot of time reinforcing those inefficient self-taught moves when I was younger. They tend to show up when I'm really tired, or on really nasty snow like refrozen coral reef.

For your skiing's sake I'm suggesting some time spent under the watchful eye of a well-trained and experienced instructor or race coach. You might even find you have some long-unfixed alignment issues!

The difficulty of self-teaching is that you are watching others for cues on what they do, without really knowing why they're doing it, how they're doing it, when they're doing it. Analyzing pictures or video only takes you so far; watching good skiers in real-time --and even playing follow-the-leader-- still suffers from the lack of How, Why, When and In What Amounts. Books that are written in a way that engages your imagination can take you some of the way toward knowing those variables, but it really takes the watchful eye of a trained coach or instructor to pick up on the little things you're doing that could be holding you back.
Edited by GrizzledVeteran - 2/12/12 at 11:30am
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