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Leaning to far inside/uphill need help fixing

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 

Hi all

 

I recently discovered a fairly major flaw in my skiing which is when I turn I use my entire body as a lever and swing my upper body uphill/inside.  As a result I then have to much weight on my inside ski and my skis will sometimes slide out from under me or I will end up skidding my turns as opposed to carving.  While I have discovered my problem Im not sure how to fix it.  I am really just asking whether or not are there any drills that will help me out.

 

Quick bio: 6 foot 200, ski mostly hard pack, race, (discovered the problem after numerous falls in training and races) high advanced--expert skier.  It is a fairly major problem for racing so all answers are greatly appreciated (had two bad runs on friday).

post #2 of 56
Upper body rotation to turn the skis is a very common problem, especially among folks who are mostly self-taught or coached by friends of a similar training. It's sort of intuitive because it sort of works in a very inefficient manner.

You need to learn to use the skis as a vehicle manipulated from the feet up. When you drive a car, you do not swing your shoulders and butt around when you turn, you manipulate the steering wheel. The skis get steered by movements that tip them off and onto their edges and rotated by movements below the pelvis.

The longer you have skied without good coaching, the more well-coached practice you'll need to get it right. Get some instruction.
post #3 of 56

Pivot Slips

Spiess

Handcuff drill

 

post #4 of 56

Pivot slips to avoid too much weight on the uphill ski? Really?

post #5 of 56

Yes...Pivot slips to promote upper/lower body separation and leg/foot steering. Weight on uphill ski is the result of

excessive upper body rotation at the end of OP's turn as he described. Think about cause and effect. What are Handcuff drills? Thanks...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Pivot slips to avoid too much weight on the uphill ski? Really?



 

post #6 of 56
Ski without poles and on each turn lift your inside arm up and point it to " where you want to go". I.e if you want to turn right, point it slightly to the right in front of you. This lifts your inside shoulder, stopping you dropping it into the turn. It also stabilises your upper body, stopping over-rotation and helps you keep balanced over the skis, not falling into the back seat. You can increase the power of the exercise by simultaneously pulling your outside hand down to your outside knee. This helps power up the outside ski.
post #7 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperkub View Post

Ski without poles and on each turn lift your inside arm up and point it to " where you want to go". I.e if you want to turn right, point it slightly to the right in front of you. This lifts your inside shoulder, stopping you dropping it into the turn. It also stabilises your upper body, stopping over-rotation and helps you keep balanced over the skis, not falling into the back seat. You can increase the power of the exercise by simultaneously pulling your outside hand down to your outside knee. This helps power up the outside ski.


do not point where you want to go instead point it down the hill.

post #8 of 56

Racer: Yes...Pivot slips to promote upper/lower body separation and leg/foot steering. Weight on uphill ski is the result of excessive upper body rotation

 

There is so much wrong with the above, I don't even know where to begin. First upper/lower body separation and foot steering have little direct effect on how much weight you have on the inside ski.  If anything, pivot slips will promote two-footed actions and do little to get that weight off the inside ski.

 

Second, while pivot slips may address upper body rotation and separation, you have to have quite an imagination to see how they address inside ski weighting, especially in a race situation.

Frankly, there are times when instructors come up with strange advice and I am inclined to call them on it. duel.gif

 

 

post #9 of 56

Skate to Shape would be a good drill for you to try.

post #10 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Racer: Yes...Pivot slips to promote upper/lower body separation and leg/foot steering. Weight on uphill ski is the result of excessive upper body rotation

 

There is so much wrong with the above, I don't even know where to begin. First upper/lower body separation and foot steering have little direct effect on how much weight you have on the inside ski.  If anything, pivot slips will promote two-footed actions and do little to get that weight off the inside ski.

 

Second, while pivot slips may address upper body rotation and separation, you have to have quite an imagination to see how they address inside ski weighting, especially in a race situation.

Frankly, there are times when instructors come up with strange advice and I am inclined to call them on it. duel.gif

 

 


 

while I agree with you that pivot slips are maybe not the best choice the end results actually does get people balance on their outside ski.

 

You can not have outside ski balance with out foot steering which then leads to independent leg movements which leads to counter and angulation which leads to being able to balance on your outside ski. With out being able to seperate our legs from our hips its is extremely difficult if not impossible to actually be balance on our outside ski. Even the PMTSes get this we just disagree on whether or not we actively or passively do it. all the talk about CA/CB starts with allowing the femurs to move separately from our hips.

 

I do find pivot slips as quite an odd drill though

 

I personally would use javelin turns, but then again I teach a modified wearing only one ski javelin turn to never evers now. It makes it so the movements learned in the first hour of skiing transfer directly to what we do as expert skiers. I never have a student who learned to turn on one ski before ever putting 2 skis ever lean uphill. In fact in alot of ways I think they will be better than me if they put as much time into the sport as me.

 

 

 

post #11 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post





do not point where you want to go instead point it down the hill.


Hmm. I think we are saying pretty much the same thing. If I am at the transition point between turns and about to turn to the right, then the area to my immediate right is down the hill. I suppose there is the question of what happens next. If i want lots of counter rotation I should keep pointing down the hill as I go through the turn. If I don't want lots of counter rotation I should continue to point where I want my skis to go next. How much counter rotation is wanted is an interesting question but maybe a step ahead of the OP.
post #12 of 56
Quote:
Frankly, there are times when instructors come up with strange advice and I am inclined to call them on it.

TomB--Racer just explained exactly the relevance of Pivot Slips to this discussion. "Banking" (sometimes erroneously confused with "inclination," which happens in all turns) often results from upper body rotation to initiate a turn--which the original poster described as exactly what he tends to do. Pivot Slips are a great drill for developing the skill of using the legs--not the upper body--to turn the skis when necessary. Developing leg rotation skills is an effective antidote to upper body rotation and, hence, may well be the cure for "leaning too far inside."

These are the things that separate great instructors from the rest, and from the average skier. Great instructors develop a deep understanding of cause and effect--which they use to identify and work with the cause of whatever the "problem" might be. Most people are aware only of the effect--"I lean too far inside," "I can't help but skid at the bottom of my turns," "I can't turn quickly and I can't ski bumps at all," and so on. But it's the cause that must be addressed. And Racer's (and SkiDude's) solution is very likely a good one here.

Best regards,
Bob
post #13 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperkub View Post


Hmm. I think we are saying pretty much the same thing. If I am at the transition point between turns and about to turn to the right, then the area to my immediate right is down the hill. I suppose there is the question of what happens next. If i want lots of counter rotation I should keep pointing down the hill as I go through the turn. If I don't want lots of counter rotation I should continue to point where I want my skis to go next. How much counter rotation is wanted is an interesting question but maybe a step ahead of the OP.


IMO its far easier to have not enough, than it is to have to much.

post #14 of 56

Could you please explain "handcuff" drill.  Thanks.

post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post





IMO its far easier to have not enough, than it is to have to much.


Ok, a bit like drinking whisky smile.gif
post #16 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA View Post

Could you please explain "handcuff" drill.  Thanks.



hands in handcuffs attached to a an imaginary chain being pulled right down the hill.

post #17 of 56


TomB - please read post #1 again..."when I turn I use my entire body as a lever and swing my upper body uphill/inside." and please read my post again, AND Bob's post

#12. I'm not talking about weight on the inside ski...but, cause and effect! AND, I'm not an instructor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Racer: Yes...Pivot slips to promote upper/lower body separation and leg/foot steering. Weight on uphill ski is the result of excessive upper body rotation

 

There is so much wrong with the above, I don't even know where to begin. First upper/lower body separation and foot steering have little direct effect on how much weight you have on the inside ski.  If anything, pivot slips will promote two-footed actions and do little to get that weight off the inside ski.

 

Second, while pivot slips may address upper body rotation and separation, you have to have quite an imagination to see how they address inside ski weighting, especially in a race situation.

Frankly, there are times when instructors come up with strange advice and I am inclined to call them on it. duel.gif

 

 



 

post #18 of 56

A little something to give you more insight into your problem.

 

Try lifting your inside ski while twisting your upper body to the outside, e.g. point your sternum to the left as far as you can while initiating and continuing a right turn, until ready to turn left, then turn your sternum to the right while lifting the (edit) left ski off the snow and turning left on the right ski.  You may notice that the counter rotation assists you in counterbalancing with your upper body instead of just leaning in.  You might not want to be going too fast or try it to excess at first. 


Edited by Ghost - 1/16/12 at 4:46pm
post #19 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



hands in handcuffs attached to a an imaginary chain being pulled right down the hill.



Thanks

post #20 of 56

 

Quote:
I then have to much weight on my inside ski and my skis will sometimes slide out from under me

Skisalot,

Try this--

--On easy terrain, lift the tail of your right ski an inch or two off the snow and make an easy turn to the right and stop.  Everything here is easy-does-it.  You want the tip of the ski on the snow and just the tail off the snow an inch or so.  You want to balance your weight on the ball of your left foot for this right turn.  Position your zipper tassel over the logo on the front of your left ski.

--Reverse.  Make a left turn and stop. 

--Ready for some linked turns?  Make the turn to the right, then before turning the other way, change feet.  Lift the left ski tail-only an inch or so off the snow, then turn left.  Lift the tail first, then turn.  Remember to turn your upper body so the zipper pull is over the logo on the front of the outside ski.  You want a little bend at the waist and a twist from the hips-up toward the outside of the turn (not just down the hill, but to the outside of the turn) while you're pulling the inside foot back.

--Repeat these until you are sooooo bored.  Gradually increase the difficulty of the terrain.  Gradually make the turns sportier.  Doing just a few of any drill does no good.  Drilling on terrain so difficult that the exercises don't go right does no good.  Repeat, repeat a few hundred times.

 

You are engaging the front half of the outside ski.  There is a lot more to learn, but now you are correctly balanced.  You can put as much or as little weight on the fronts to achieve the results you want.  You can put as much or as little weight on the inside ski to get what you want.  A great drill more advanced than this is to make a turn and briefly lift your inside ski off the snow.  If you can lift it momentarily, you have the balance skill to put as much or as little weight on that ski any time you want.

 

Javelin turns are more advanced.  Be careful to keep the tip of the lifted & crossed-over ski on or near the snow and your lifted foot rolled over so the arch of that foot is pressing against your other ankle.  It is easy to start doing Javelins with your weight back, and you don't want that.

post #21 of 56

Bob Barnes: TomB--Racer just explained exactly the relevance of Pivot Slips to this discussion. "Banking" (sometimes erroneously confused with "inclination," which happens in all turns) often results from upper body rotation to initiate a turn--which the original poster described as exactly what he tends to do. Pivot Slips are a great drill for developing the skill of using the legs--not the upper body--to turn the skis when necessary. Developing leg rotation skills is an effective antidote to upper body rotation and, hence, may well be the cure for "leaning too far inside."

 

Well let's look at what Skisalot said:"I recently discovered a fairly major flaw in my skiing which is when I turn I use my entire body as a lever and swing my upper body uphill/inside. As a result I then have to much weight on my inside ski and my skis will sometimes slide out from under me or I will end up skidding my turns as opposed to carving.

 

From this I would not jump to a conclusion that upper body rotation is the culprit. I would think of banking (maybe even inclination without some angulation) as the primary culprit.

 

Yet we are suggesting a drill that effectively replacing upper body rotation with lower leg rotation and still have the skis sliding out. How does that address carving? How does that address too much weight on the inside ski? His goal is to carve turns (or at least this is how I understood it), so I still maintain that the advice to do pivot slips is highly questionable.

 

I tend to believe that the cause of his situation is lack of maintaining some counter and lack of angulation. Drills to promote these 2 things would go a lot farther, IMHO. Why nobody even mentions this is completely beyond me.

 

 

post #22 of 56

I can see why "this is completely beyond me"...Please read your own bold at what Skisalot said...his major flaw...Why try and address

something other than his "major flaw". Sure more counter may help but may not stop the upper body rotation. And inclination at the

beginning of a new turn after he has skidded out could be neat too. And why not mention several other drills for more foot to foot and how

about pole plants. Because the main issue (without seeing video or a more detailed description) Skisalot has asked about what he sees

as a "fairly major flaw". It is very clear to me why the experts (Bob Barnes) hasn't even mentioned more.

 

"I tend to believe that the cause of his situation is lack of maintaining some counter and lack of angulation. Drills to promote these 2 things would go a lot farther, IMHO. Why nobody even mentions this is completely beyond me.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Well let's look at what Skisalot said:"I recently discovered a fairly major flaw in my skiing which is when I turn I use my entire body as a lever and swing my upper body uphill/inside. As a result I then have to much weight on my inside ski and my skis will sometimes slide out from under me or I will end up skidding my turns as opposed to carving.

 

From this I would not jump to a conclusion that upper body rotation is the culprit. I would think of banking (maybe even inclination without some angulation) as the primary culprit.

 

Yet we are suggesting a drill that effectively replacing upper body rotation with lower leg rotation and still have the skis sliding out. How does that address carving? How does that address too much weight on the inside ski? His goal is to carve turns (or at least this is how I understood it), so I still maintain that the advice to do pivot slips is highly questionable.

 

I tend to believe that the cause of his situation is lack of maintaining some counter and lack of angulation. Drills to promote these 2 things would go a lot farther, IMHO. Why nobody even mentions this is completely beyond me.

 

 



 

post #23 of 56

Sorry Racer, but if you read the OP's post he actually does not mention rotation at all. You and Bob assume it. There are plenty of experts who would find the suggestion for pivot slips a joke if you take the OP post at face value. 

post #24 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Sorry Racer, but if you read the OP's post he actually does not mention rotation at all. You and Bob assume it. There are plenty of experts who would find the suggestion for pivot slips a joke if you take the OP post at face value. 

Tom.

 

Get real.  No one knows for sure, as we just have words.  But on the balance of probalities, my "read" that he is rotating is valid.  Others see it too.  If you think he is just banking...fair enough, you could be right...you could be wrong.  No pros would take my assessment as a joke.  In fact, most take my assessments very seriously.  If you choose to disregard it, that is your choice.  Am I 100% positive I am right?  Nope...I am only 100% sure in so far as I assume my read that he feels he intiates turn with his upper body, if that is true, then my suggestions are bang on.  If he is banking....well then, ironically pivot slips still work, but only as a start, you would add a pile of things after.  Pivot slips are great for slowing things right down, and letting people develop new feelings slowly.  You then build up the speed and performance by adding in edging etc.  No one is arguing otherwise.

 

Yes we are assuming he is rotating as much as you are assuming he is banking.  To me "swing inside" is rotate.  Banking would be described as "leaning in" or "tipping way inside", or "I often find my outside ski tracking away from me....".  Are common ways people who "bank" describe their skiing.   
 

 

post #25 of 56

Both right. Counter rotating will assist in applying a counter postion which will clearly assist the OP. 

Pivot slips are not my bag; my knees don't like pivots.  However, some instructors are capable of teaching pivot slips in a way that promotes upper and lower body separation, which is an essential part of counter rotating (as opposed to doing pivot slips incorrectly and promoting rotation).

post #26 of 56

I'm with SkiDude. What else could "swing my upper body" mean? Banking is a lateral move not a rotational one.  PSIA-RM.org

sells a good instructional manual that might help with your understanding. wink.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Sorry Racer, but if you read the OP's post he actually does not mention rotation at all. You and Bob assume it. There are plenty of experts who would find the suggestion for pivot slips a joke if you take the OP post at face value. 



 

post #27 of 56
Quote:
this is completely beyond me

Well, TomB, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with you on that. Like I said before, these are things good instructors work very hard to understand, things unlikely to be obvious to someone without their background. Indeed, cause and effect are rarely obvious. People often seek out instructors because they've become aware of something that's not working in their skiing, but that "thing" is almost invariably an effect of something else, and it is the instructor's expertise that lets them get to the bottom of it--to the "root cause"--and find the key to improvement.

Please keep in mind that almost everything here is conjecture about Skisalot's (original poster's) skiing, since we have not actually seen him ski. But from his description, there's a pretty good chance he looks a lot like the skier in this brief clip:

120

You may (or may not, if your eye is not sharp) observe that, like Skisalot, this skier falls to the inside (uphill) ski in the second half of his turns. As you have correctly suggested, Tom, he "banks" (meaning he inclines his whole body into the turn with little to no "angulation") and his position at the end of the turn is "square" (body facing the same direction as his skis, no "counter") or slightly rotated into the turn.

The problem this skier is likely to observe is that he falls to the inside ski in the second half of his turn, as his skis skid a lot. Almost anyone can see that he has little edge angle in the second half of the turn, and if you're a bit more knowledgeable, you might surmise that the cause is that he is "banking" (inclining into the turn with his whole body, with no "angulation"). So you might--as you have, Tom--suggest that the solution is to tip his upper body downhill over his outside ski to create some hip angulation, thereby shifting his balance out over the outside ski and increasing his edge angle. Congratulations--you have a rudimentary understanding of cause and effect. But your lesson would fail.

A slightly more experienced instructor might notice that a primary reason he has no hip angles at the end of the turn is that his body position is "square" (body facing the same direction as his skis, no "counter") or slightly rotated into the turn. Keen understanding of cause and effect leads you to know that a square-to-rotated position like that actually causes the hips to move out over the skis, precluding the possibility of hip angulation. So you might suggest that he needs to add some "counter" here--twist his upper body down the hill--which would indeed put him into a position from which he could then create some hip angulation, balance over the outside ski, and increase his edge angle. If you see and understand this, congratulations again--your understanding of cause and effect is above average. But your lesson would still amount to no more than a bandaid patch of the symptoms, while entirely missing the cause of those symptoms.

A superior instructor would recognize that this skier's lack of counter and minimal edge angles at the end of the turn are caused by the movements he uses to start the turn--in particular the "rotary" movements. Note that he begins each turn by twisting his arms and upper body into the turn--a movement pattern commonly known as "rotation" or "upper body rotation." This movement pattern at the beginning of the turn causes his later-in-the-turn problems. That's right--his edging and pressure control problems at the end of the turn result from rotary problems at the beginning of the turn. You cannot "fix" them by focusing on the effects at the end of the turn--where the skier notices them. You've got to identify the cause and address the problem there.

So his "problem" is upper body rotation to initiate the turn. The solution is to develop a new movement pattern to initiate the turn. If he needs (for whatever reason) to turn his skis as forcefully as he does, he will need to learn to do it with his legs, not his upper body. Turning his legs in the hip sockets, beneath a stable pelvis and upper body, will result in the countered alignment that will enable him to angulate and balance on his outside ski throughout the turn.

And a great drill for developing the skill of leg rotation is Pivot Slips. They also develop the related and critical skill of releasing the edges--letting go of the mountain--prior to steering the ski tips into the turn. The upper body rotation, as you can see in the clip, causes the ski tails to twist out of the turn into a skid, further contributing to the problem of falling to the inside ski. If this skier (and quite possibly also Skisalot) were to focus on starting his turn by releasing his edges and guiding his skis into the turn, rather than setting the edges (which he does at the very end of each turn in the clip) and pushing/twisting away from the "platform" of those set edges, it is very likely that the problems he observes at the end of the turn would vanish.

Of course, the truly superior instructor would not stop there. Why does the skier use upper body rotation to start the turn? Was he taught that way? (Many were, especially if they learned a long time ago, or if they were never introduced to the movements of turning their legs without the use of their upper body.) Is he defensive, and therefore trying twist his skis around quickly to avoid gaining speed (very likely)? A truly competent instructor will continue to work back to identify the true root cause, and address the problem there. Fix the cause, and the effects (symptoms) will take care of themselves.

On a side note, it seems likely, Tom, that you may not really understand what Pivot Slips are--and what they are not. Far from leading to skidded turns, they develop the "release" and feeling for "neutral" that are the key to NOT twisting the skis into a skid (as the skier in the clip does). You are not alone in this misunderstanding, of course. It is natural, because Pivot Slips are, themselves, far from carved turns. They are not turns at all. They are simply a drill that develops the skills and sensations of the transition and initiation phases of turns, along with the ability to control the skis precisely with the legs, not the upper body. They have nothing to do with the "pressure," "carving," or "shaping" phase of the turn.

---

That video clip represents a very common syndrome of movements in recreational skiers. No one here--except perhaps Skisalot himself--can say for sure at this point how relevant it is to Skisalot. But from his self-description, I'd be willing to lay pretty good odds that his "problem" is similar.

What do you say, Skisalot? Do you see any of yourself in this video clip and description? Of course, if you have any video of yourself, we could sure eliminate a lot of guesswork!

Best regards,
Bob
post #28 of 56

+1 here for pivot slips, one of the greatest drills I know.

 

-1 for counter rotating.

 

Pivot slips promote a stable upper body while emphasizing lower leg steering which seems pretty much the opposite of the OP's issues.  You can not take away one's only turning power without replacing it with something else.  Once this new and better turning power is learned it is quite easy to add more edge angle and/or tip pressure to begin shaping and then carving turns IMO.

 

post #29 of 56

First let me say that for the example provided by Bob Barnes in the video, I would never have posted anything against pivot slips. That video is not what I imagined when it comes to the OP, especially since he mentioned that he races. But as Skidude72 said, I assumed as much as anyone else.

 

As for pivot slips, I do have a personal issue with them. They managed to instill in me a tendency to pivot my feet at the worst of times. It literally took me years to avoid that, as it became an instinctive method of turning. Mind you, even when I met Bob and Bud, I was not skiing like the person in the video, but what I needed is to kill that ingrained pivoting, even if it was subtle.

 

I do think that my understanding of skiing is far better than what is being suggested here. I spent the last 8 years studying and practicing. My MA will always be different than somebody who follows PSIA, but even I can understand where you guys come from when the skier displays the skills shown in Bob's video.

 

I hope I did not come on too strong, but I love it when such discussion is generated. I just wish skisalot would chime in to tells us more about himself (another assumption on my side, since it could be a 'herself') redface.gif

post #30 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

First let me say that for the example provided by Bob Barnes in the video, I would never have posted anything against pivot slips. That video is not what I imagined when it comes to the OP, especially since he mentioned that he races. But as Skidude72 said, I assumed as much as anyone else.

 

As for pivot slips, I do have a personal issue with them. They managed to instill in me a tendency to pivot my feet at the worst of times. It literally took me years to avoid that, as it became an instinctive method of turning. Mind you, even when I met Bob and Bud, I was not skiing like the person in the video, but what I needed is to kill that ingrained pivoting, even if it was subtle.

 

I do think that my understanding of skiing is far better than what is being suggested here. I spent the last 8 years studying and practicing. My MA will always be different than somebody who follows PSIA, but even I can understand where you guys come from when the skier displays the skills shown in Bob's video.

 

I hope I did not come on too strong, but I love it when such discussion is generated. I just wish skisalot would chime in to tells us more about himself (another assumption on my side, since it could be a 'herself') redface.gif




so doing pivot slips made you pviot every turns?

 

sounds like personal problem and not a drill problem

 

I can do pivot slips, and I can do arc  to arc skiing. The seperation is exactly the same.

 

Also bud why not counter rotation? Forcing my inside hips down the hill has made me MUCH more balanceed on my outside ski letting me bend it much more. It has also given me much more grip on ICE.

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