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Cham WOW! and another 2013 Dynastar, the Outland 87 - Page 3

post #61 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post

Those that might be captives of their own self importance tend to be impressed by themselves and their own surroundings be they Squaw, Jackson, Baker whatever. Once you drive up the Cham Valley, that self absorption tends to diminish a bit. Hence, those that have been to Chamonix or that understand it, don't joke about it too much. Rather.......they tend to respect the reference.

 

Those that would tend to make the Cham reference a joking matter are deserving of a street corner and a clown suit.

 

SJ


Cham WOW!:

 

http://youtu.be/rnCB9pK5A0w

 

 

 

 

Cham FOU!: (crazy)

 

 

gaminmontaz                                                                                                     http://youtu.be/bipxH48EIUk

 

 

 

 

 

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #62 of 83

Thanks for the post of those vids. In the years that I worked for Dynastar, I spent a fair bit of time up there and hence my post about not respecting the "Cham" reference. Folks that haven't been there have no clue...........

 

Incidentally, the skier in the first vid named "Duncan" is (I believe) the son of the guy I worked with in R&D when I was an in house product manager. If it's the right guy, I met him for the first time at the family home in Moscow Vt. At the time, he was about three....maybe four and he was jumping off the roof of the family home while wearing a batman suit (complete with cape) and then skiing down the driveway to the road. Training for Cham I guess. BTW....he also liked Darth Vader suits and the nickname around the household was "the DUNC-monster"

 

Interestingly (or maybe not) the mountain, the conditions, and what you see those guys doing extends into the philosophy that Dynastar has usually had in product development. There were many times that I sat at the factory down in Sallanches around dusk and looking back up the valley. Maybe the second or third bottle of wine was past and the French product guys would express what they thought about handling the terrain up there. The marketing guys may have strayed from time time to time but FTMP the product guys never did. What you see in these vids explicates what Chamonix is about and (IMO) what the new "Cham" skis are all about. These are not going to be for folks that like to hang on the boot and ride the ski around. Rather, the Cham skis are going to be for those that "work" the terrain and conditions.

 

If you can visualize skiing that mountain, the Cham series may the best tool yet.

 

SJ

post #63 of 83

Great story, thanks for sharing. Sounds like a fantastic experience in Sallanches.

 

Moscow, VT - shortcut to Stowe! Last time I went through did a little drifting in the snowstorm. Cool to know that the kid roof diving with cape has evolved to booters in the mountains.

 

There is something so different about the Alps. There's a mountain culture which we don't get really here.  I mean when a village or city is actually in the mountains and mountains are so much a part of life, things are different. People have a different attitude.  Even in Les Deux Alpes where i was for a week in the summer you could feel it, and let's face it that place is like the Killington of the Alpes. Still it's there and especially down in La Grave which is just gorgeous.

It's highly unlikely that kid killed at Vail in the avalanche would have been had he grown up in Chamonix or another town in the Alps.  He might have gotten killed in a different way, but not essentially oblivious to the conditons of the moment. Not if you've spent your entire life in those mountains. 

 

I take it you don't really want a lot of width in a ski if you're going down couloirs like that in the Seb Montaz video. Maybe around100mm max? What would they ski in that?  Looks like they're on Mythic Riders 88mm.?

 

Here's another video from new epic member JackHTaylor.  He's on the British Telemark World Cup team.  I dug this off his site.

 

Pretty cool. It's not a pro edit film, the skiing doesn't even start till 9 minutes in, but the music's good, the picture quality is really good, and it gives you a real sense of being there..  If you watch it full screen on youtube you really get what passes for fairly average at Chamonix.  Sunlight off the mountains in the distance, rope belay, 5,900 foot vertical run, and ski up to a Hotel restaraunt in a little town!

 

 

      jackharvardtaylor89                                                                                     http://youtu.be/-Xvf1s5E_FA

post #64 of 83

Dynastar has always been very popular with that crowd and often they made whole collections of lightweight AT/Randonee skis that they didn't sell much in North America. The Euro idea of backcountry skiing is much different than it is here of course and wider skis are not the norm there (or at least not yet). If I had to guess, I'd say that sub 100mm is by far the majority with probably 85-95mm being about average. The French and Swiss are much more into the backcountry/touring experience than the Germans or Italians but they are all more into it than here and really, as you say, the experience is just different. In general, the atmosphere in the villages and on the mountain is much more relaxed than it is here. Some would say that they take the whole skiing thing too much for granted but I don't see it that way. They view a day or two at the mountain as "play" and they take the opportunity for a glass of wine or Grappa as an excuse to sit in the sun, socialize, and have a nice little snack. Naturally, the Germans and Austrians are a little more aggro than the French and Italians. Over here we often view the day on the hill as a competition. First chair, first tracks, most runs, most vert, how fast can you go, how many days, widest skis, techiest gear, coolest car, on and on. I s'pose maybe I was that way once but not these days. About the only competition I engage in these days is competing with myself to make my next turn better than my last. (and if I lose the competition that day......I don't care)

 

Interesting you've been through Moscow. I almost lived there myself when I moved East. I ended up in Waterbury Center (about 2-3 miles back down rt. 100 ) and that was a cool spot too.  Thanks again for posting the vids.....brings back great memories.

 

SJ

post #65 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post

Dynastar has always been very popular with that crowd and often they made whole collections of lightweight AT/Randonee skis that they didn't sell much in North America. The Euro idea of backcountry skiing is much different than it is here of course and wider skis are not the norm there (or at least not yet). If I had to guess, I'd say that sub 100mm is by far the majority with probably 85-95mm being about average. The French and Swiss are much more into the backcountry/touring experience than the Germans or Italians but they are all more into it than here and really, as you say, the experience is just different. In general, the atmosphere in the villages and on the mountain is much more relaxed than it is here. Some would say that they take the whole skiing thing too much for granted but I don't see it that way. They view a day or two at the mountain as "play" and they take the opportunity for a glass of wine or Grappa as an excuse to sit in the sun, socialize, and have a nice little snack. Naturally, the Germans and Austrians are a little more aggro than the French and Italians. Over here we often view the day on the hill as a competition. First chair, first tracks, most runs, most vert, how fast can you go, how many days, widest skis, techiest gear, coolest car, on and on. I s'pose maybe I was that way once but not these days. About the only competition I engage in these days is competing with myself to make my next turn better than my last. (and if I lose the competition that day......I don't care)

 

Interesting you've been through Moscow. I almost lived there myself when I moved East. I ended up in Waterbury Center (about 2-3 miles back down rt. 100 ) and that was a cool spot too.  Thanks again for posting the vids.....brings back great memories.

 

SJ

 

icon14.gif  yes, much more civilized that way.  One of the great pleasures of skiing in Europe, enjoying a reasonably priced bottle (or 2) of wine at lunch. spit.gif
 

 

post #66 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post

In general, the atmosphere in the villages and on the mountain is much more relaxed than it is here. Some would say that they take the whole skiing thing too much for granted but I don't see it that way. They view a day or two at the mountain as "play" and they take the opportunity for a glass of wine or Grappa as an excuse to sit in the sun, socialize, and have a nice little snack. Naturally, the Germans and Austrians are a little more aggro than the French and Italians. Over here we often view the day on the hill as a competition. First chair, first tracks, most runs, most vert, how fast can you go, how many days, widest skis, techiest gear, coolest car, on and on. I s'pose maybe I was that way once but not these days. About the only competition I engage in these days is competing with myself to make my next turn better than my last. 


^^^^ This may be one reason why skiing is far more important as a sport in Europe. Agree about the competitive piece, but also think it's about taking time to do something besides work.They actually believe a normal life includes weird, anti-capitalist aberrations like long vacations, long lunches, and (gasp) paternity leave. Over here if you don't work 60 hour weeks and eat lunch at your desk, your boss will find someone who will.

 

So when we do get to go skiing, it's got this urgency, gotta wring as much value out of this as possible because, well, that's what matters in life...

 

post #67 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

 

icon14.gif  yes, much more civilized that way.  One of the great pleasures of skiing in Europe, enjoying a reasonably priced bottle (or 2) of wine at lunch. spit.gif
 

 



Absolutely. One time I was at an international group meeting being held in Corvara ITA. On one day the host group decided to take us all skiing on the Sella Ronda. That is a fairly long ski route that travels lift served around a great central massif that can basically start and end just about wherever you are. We started fairly early and about 11:00 we stopped on the mountain for lunch. Bread, wine, cheese, wine, sausages, wine, and other items flowed freely. After about 45mins the americans and brits were going......"shouldn't we go?.....don't we need to go?........how about now?.....are we late?......should we go? After about an hour and a half, and some grappa, we weren't quite so nervous about the whole thing.

 

SJ

post #68 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post

Interesting you've been through Moscow. I almost lived there myself when I moved East. I ended up in Waterbury Center (about 2-3 miles back down rt. 100 ) and that was a cool spot too.  Thanks again for posting the vids.....brings back great memories.

 

SJ

 

I got my last boots in Waterbury from PJ who started Race Stock Sports. First place was in the end of his driveway near the bridge out of town. It was in sort of a one room building. Then he moved across and up the street in downtown center area. He's very commited to racing. Not a lot of places you go in have print outs of World Cup races or various local and Eastern Races at the time.  Hurricane Irene did a number on Waterbury. I heard PJ lost like a $100k of stock. A lot were skis.  Apparently the water lifted the heating oil tanks which fell over and spilled, contaminating his stock of race skis.

Damage wise, Irene was the worst storm in Vt history. 

 

In terms of the videos, I've been utterly mesmerized by the JackHTaylor one. I'm not usually a big fan of helmet cam videos. There's something about that one though. Just two guys on the mountain, then coming down into that sunlit valley. I've watched it like 10 times.

 

So about those Cham skis.....

What is the effect of the reverse sidecut tip and tail?  On firm snow does it mean the tip does not really contribute in an arc? Is there sort of a gap from the regular sidecut to where the widest part of the tip engages the snow?

Why do they not put metal in the 87 one? The Bushwacker too. What's up with that?

 

levitation.jpg
 

FAST FACTS: Cham HM 107

  • Sizes: 175, 184, 190 cm
  • Sidecut: 130-137-107-122-98 mm
  • Radius: 20 m

 

FAST FACTS: Cham HM 97

  • Sizes: 166, 172, 178, 184 cm
  • Sidecut: 118-133-97-113-94 mm
  • Radius: 16 m

 

FAST FACTS: Cham HM 87

  • Sizes: 166, 172, 178, 184 cm
  • Sidecut: 109-127-87-103-90 mm
  • Radius: 16 m

 

post #69 of 83

IMO, the tip on the Chams won't have much to do with anything except when in 3-D snow. On the rough choppy snow at Mammoth yesterday and the day before, it really was not much of a factor. The tip and tail shapes kept the ski from grabbing or deflecting in the rough lumpy snow but the snow wasn't deep enough for the tip to become operable. The 5 point design engages at the widest points which coincide with the end of the regular sidecut portion and the end of the full camber section in front. The camber section goes all the way past the rear contact point to the tail. Although the camber is very flat at the back of the ski, there is some. When you look at that diagram, ignore those red arrows, they don't really signify where the contact points are and the engaged portion of the ski is longer than what that drawing shows. Still, this design skis short when on a surface such as a groomer or the rough stuff this week. The 178 Cham 97 felt like a 172 or something and although it was fun, I'd want a 184 for sure. I think probably the closest target here would be to say that the Cham is a much improved S3 type of ski with enough heft to overcome the limitations of that design while retaining the great nimble feel of that ski. I'll have a couple of pairs for much of the spring so it is going to be interesting to see how this design works in crud (if it ever snows out here).

 

I guess the ski designers feel that not every ski needs metal to be good and certainly versatile skis like the BW, the Cham 87, Outland 87, Rossi Exp 88, Head rev 90, Nordica Steadfast and others prove this to be true. OTH, some skis that do have metal can feel pretty nondescript so I guess there just is no magic ingredient.

 

SJ

post #70 of 83

Seems the crazy 88's don't have metal and are more suitable to lighter guys.  Bigger guys like myself generally need metal.  An 88-90 with metal that has sidecut and a bit of early rise....unfortunately rare.

post #71 of 83

^^^^ It's my understanding - may be wrong on this - that metal is not the primary device for making a ski stiff. That's fiberglass and wood. The metal, I think, dampens and allows thinner profiles, since the cross sectional area for any material in its ski determines its flex. Metal also makes a ski heavier, and alters feel (Phil talks about "warmth," which I like, but OTOH Blizzard metal feels way different than Kastle metal, so ain't just metal.). Examples of non-metal skis that you would have trouble flexing, even as a bigger guy, unless you were at kill-the-pedestrian speeds: The VR17's that Killy won on. PM Gear Super Stiff 193's. Moment Garbones. And so on. Also note that all Kastle skis over 94 mm are non-wood/non-carbon, and I don't hear guys saying that the BMX108 or 128 fold on 'em.The Bodacious is all wood, no carbon or metal, and it's said to be a seriously beefy ski. The Movement Goliath and 4FNT EHP 193 were all wood and were not real easy to bend. Then there's carbon; go try a DPS, any width, in flex 3. My .02. 


Edited by beyond - 2/11/12 at 8:52am
post #72 of 83

Good points.  Greater than the sum of its parts.  Sounds like good ski design is part science, part voodoo LOL.

post #73 of 83

edit: This turned into a massive "about Basalt" post!

 

Nice post beyond.  It's pretty apparent that ski design is more than just ordering and matching parts. Carbon is definitely tricky to use, it can make a ski way too reactive.  It's not necessarily the material, it's how you use it.  Who would've thought that powdered rock would work? *

As for metal, what about the other option, "liquid metal"? smile.gif (What's happened to that?)

It is interesting that in so many 88 skis the designers have eliminated the metal. I'd love to hear a discussion of the testing since I would think it was tested extensively.

 

* Basalt is not some gimmick, it is a real fiber produced from Basalt rock. If that sounds weird, think of fiberglass- produced from sand and other materials.  Basalt fibers do not require the addition of other minerals that fiberglass fibers do. Because of that, it matters greatly where the actual Basalt comes from.  Basalt fibers are currently being used to make concrete rebar in situations that call for non-ferrous reinforcement and where cost is not prohibitive. Basalt fibers are non-conductive, have a very high melt point making it a suitable replacement for asbestos, and have acoustice absorption properties. There is a strong connection with the French and Basalt.

 

Quote:

Paul Dhé from Paris, France, was the first with the idea to extrude fibers from basalt. He was granted a U.S. patent in 1923. Around 1960, both the U.S. and the former Soviet Union (USSR) began to investigate basalt fiber applications, particularly in military hardware, such as missiles.

- From source below. 

 

Quote: From:  Composites Technology, "Basalt Fibers: Alternative To Glass?" ,

                        by Anne Ross 8/1/06  http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/basalt-fibers-alternative-to-glass 

.Around 1970, however, U.S. glass companies abandoned basalt fiber research for strategies that favored their core product. The result was a better glass fiber including successful development of S-2 glass fiber by Owens Corning.

 

During the same period, research in Eastern Europe, which had been carried out in the 1950s by independent groups in Moscow, Prague and other locales, was nationalized by the USSR's Defense Ministry and concentrated in Kyiv, Ukraine, where technology was subsequently developed in closed institutes and factories. After the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, the results of Soviet research were declassified and made available for civilian applications.

 

Today, basalt fiber research, production and most marketing efforts are based in countries once aligned with the Soviet bloc. Companies currently involved in production and marketing include Kamenny Vek (Dubna, Russia), Technobasalt (Kyiv, Ukraine), Hengdian Group Shanghai Russia & Gold Basalt Fibre Co. (Shanghai, China), and OJSC Research Institute Glassplastics and Fiber (Bucha, Ukraine). Basaltex, a division of Masureel Holding (Wevelgem, Belgium), and Sudaglass Fiber Technology Inc. (Houston, Texas) convert basalt fiber into woven and nonwoven reinforcement forms for the European and North American markets, respectively.

 

 Here's a consumer/pro product that uses Basalt fibers. A lightweight tripod made by Gitzo. (Interestingly, another originally French Company)

Quote:

Using the experience gained working with other advanced composite materials has made Gitzo the first and only manufacturer of a new generation of tripods that use Basalt fiber tubes. The fiber is made from basalt rock which is crushed and melted at 1500°C (or 2735°F). The extracted fibers are transformed into a tube using the same technology used for Gitzo Carbon 6X tube.
 
Basalt tube has most of the features of carbon fiber, like high thermal and dimensional stability and reduced weight (20% lighter than aluminum). Like 6X, it is engineered to match Gitzo’s performance standards. Our Basalt tubes have a 1.2mm thick wall and a 3-crossed layer structure with built in Anti Leg Rotation (ALR). The performance and price of Basalt tripods puts them between aluminum and high performance Carbon 6X.

 

Here's a brief discussion: I'm not sure I'd call it a "green" product, but that's a different debate.

 

Quote:

Several things need to be noted here. First is that there are no chemicals or other products added to the basalt rock before it is melted. The natural composition of certain basalts is perfect for making good fibers. As a contrast, fiberglass is made from a mixture of many ingredients, some of which are not environmentally friendly. Basalt continuous filament is a green product. And we can never deplete the supply of basalt rock.

 

Second, the physical properties of basalt filaments are quite attractive. Compared to e-glass, the most common form of fiberglass, basalt filaments have higher tensile strength and modulus of elasticity, much better temperature tolerance, better resistance to acid and alkali damage, and do not absorb water through the core of the fiber like glass fibers do.

 

Compared to carbon, basalt fibers offer a much lower cost and a complete absence of conductivity and the inductance of fields when exposed to RF energy.

Third, compared to steel, basalt filaments are much stronger for the same diameter, a fraction of the weight for the same strength, and impervious to acids, alkali, and corrosion.

 

- Marina Presley, Sudaglas Fiber Technology Inc., in Monolithic.com article,  "Basalt Fiber Rebar", 3/3/11  http://www.monolithic.com/stories/basalt-fiber-rebar

 

Here's some examples of Basalt cloths for use with resins:

Produced by Kamenny Vek, a Russian Company, produced under brand name Basfiber:

 

 

TBR-400

TBR-500

TBR-600

TDS

TDS

TDS

 

 

 

TBR-800

TBK-100

BT-25/3P-76

BT-25/3P-76

TDS

TDS

TDS

 

 

 

BT-160

BT-11/1

BT-700

BT-11/1

TDS

TDS

TDS

http://www.basfiber.com/basalt-fabric

 

The 2007 Acura Mdx employed a fiberglass free headliner, using basalt fibers instead.  The advantage is the high melting point, so after incineration only basalt fibers are left and can be reused.

The product is made from a product called Volcalite, manufactured by a Korean Company, Hanwha Azdel.  http://www.azdel.com/products.htm

The problem with fiberglass-based headliners is that as the glass fibers melt during incineration, they stick to the inside of the incineration chamber. The result is a costly clean-up effort and significant downtime. Japan 's Recycling and Treatment Council has gone so far as to legislate that the auto OEM must pay fines to recoup the costs associated with such clean-ups. Faced with this, Honda went in search of fiber glass alternatives. The solution: basalt.

From: Basfiber   http://www.basfiber.com/4

 

Mervin Manufacturing. Makers of LibTech, GNU, Roxy. Uses Basalt fibers extensively in their boards. They call it "Golden Fleece".  In general they seem to be big adopters and searchers of alternative materials and technology.

Brief discussion of Basalt at 3:10.

 

Mervin.com                                                                            http://vimeo.com/17673378

 

 

This from Chinese Manufacturer, Basalt Fibers and Composite Materials Technology Development, BFCMTD.

 

              Comparison tables of fibers   http://www.basaltfm.com/eng/fiber/info.html

BASIC CHARACTERISTICS & ADVANTAGES CBF (Continuous Basalt Fiber)

 

Tabl.1. Comparative Characteristics Between CBF Fiber & Other Fiber
Capability     CBF   E-glass fiber  S-glass fiber  Carbon fiber
Tensile strength, MPa
  3000~4840   3100~3800      4020~4650       3500~6000
Elastic modulus, gPa
   79.3~93.1    72.5~75.5 83~86   230~600
Elongation at break, %
       3.1       4.7 5.3   1.5~2.0
Diameter of filament, mµ
      6~21      6~21 6~21    5~15
tex
   60~4200    40~4200 40~4200   60~2400
Temperature of application, °Ñ
  -260~+500   -50~+380 -50 +300   -50~+700
Price, USD/kg
       2,5        1,1 1,5       30

 

 

Note: degree N = "Newton", I know, wtf?:   -50 degN = -240degF, 300degN= 1668 degF, 500degN = 2760degF

 

 

More info also here

A Dutch Company:

http://basalt-alf.narod.ru/

 

post #74 of 83

Tog....finally got out on my basalt equiped Rossi E83's this week......nice ski, not a pure frontside ripper but not far off. Would like to get it on some softer snow but that's a whole other problem. They do ski short so pick accordingly (I skied the 176cm). You're not still on those hammered Heads are you???  th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #75 of 83

I'm on some equally archaic Rossi C70's...also some incredibly beat Fischer Slaloms- It may be time to retire them.

Are you looking to purchase the heads for your collection?

post #76 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View PostI'm on some equally archaic Rossi C70's...also some incredibly beat Fischer Slaloms- It may be time to retire them.

Are you looking to purchase the heads for your collection?



Purchase? roflmao.gif

 

I've pulled skis out of dumpsters that looked new compared to those  eek.gif

 

Now for a small donation they could find refuge on the "wall of shame".........

 

post #77 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

Revamps abound with most manufactures and Dynastar is no different. Out with the popular Legend  and Legend Pro series,and replace with the updated Outland and revolutionary, yeah I said it, Cham series....  I will be reporting within a few days on how this new addition to the upper 80's frontside ski reacts on snow and how it compares to the other skis in the "Crazy 88" class.

 

 

Phil - I can't say I've seen much about the Cham 87 here since this post.  Yeah there was your brief "review" (with two others tagged on), but nothing much otherwise (i.e., forum posts/threads) - is this such an underwhelming ski that nobody wants to talk about it?

post #78 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

 

So about those Cham skis.....

What is the effect of the reverse sidecut tip and tail?  On firm snow does it mean the tip does not really contribute in an arc? Is there sort of a gap from the regular sidecut to where the widest part of the tip engages the snow?

Why do they not put metal in the 87 one? 

 

 

 

I can answer that. I have a pair of Cham 87's. Not the High Mountain version, those seem to be more of a randonnée/touring-style ski, and those are the ones without any metal. My regular Cham 87's definitely have a metal layer in them. Even though they're pretty light. 

 

The reverse sidecut tail: ('pin tail') 

It's a bit weird. What they claim about the tail sinking in in the pow to bring the tips up: it's probably true. It feels like it's true. 

But about the weirdness: others say the tail lacks corner-exit.... power. Personally, I feel they're exaggerating. For me, the tail works fine when carving hard, can't say it lacks power. I will admit the skis have a slight tendency to skid turns. ("Surfy feel") Carving requires just a bit of finesse and the right amount of pressure on the outside ski. 

And in the (max. boot deep) pow and crud: the tails are AWESOME. It's like they don't hang up, ever, and very easily come around. I'm using the 184s, the longest available, and they turn super-tight in loose stuff. 

 

The round, rockered tip: 

It's unbelievable in crud. There is nothing like it. The way this tip slices through crud... like nothing else. And it floats nicely in (less than boot-deep) powder. Comes up a little, feels nice. 

On the hard-packed snow.... it doesn't flap around much. Not nearly as much as the tip on a Salomon BBR, anyway. But it does sit up and doesn't do much. SO really, my 184cm ski is effectively a very short one. 

I briefly tested a 172cm Cham 87 as well. Turns even tighter (14m radius vs. 16m@184cm) Also absorbs choppy bumps extremely well, but it does so closer to your boots, so some of the impact does make it through. The impacts of the bumps happen closer to your boot, so there is less ski in between to soak it up. 

 

I may have vids of all this. 

post #79 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
 

 

 

I can answer that. I have a pair of Cham 87's. Not the High Mountain version, those seem to be more of a randonnée/touring-style ski, and those are the ones without any metal. My regular Cham 87's definitely have a metal layer in them. Even though they're pretty light. 

 

The reverse sidecut tail: ('pin tail') 

It's a bit weird. What they claim about the tail sinking in in the pow to bring the tips up: it's probably true. It feels like it's true. 

But about the weirdness: others say the tail lacks corner-exit.... power. Personally, I feel they're exaggerating. For me, the tail works fine when carving hard, can't say it lacks power. I will admit the skis have a slight tendency to skid turns. ("Surfy feel") Carving requires just a bit of finesse and the right amount of pressure on the outside ski. 

And in the (max. boot deep) pow and crud: the tails are AWESOME. It's like they don't hang up, ever, and very easily come around. I'm using the 184s, the longest available, and they turn super-tight in loose stuff. 

 

The round, rockered tip: 

It's unbelievable in crud. There is nothing like it. The way this tip slices through crud... like nothing else. And it floats nicely in (less than boot-deep) powder. Comes up a little, feels nice. 

On the hard-packed snow.... it doesn't flap around much. Not nearly as much as the tip on a Salomon BBR, anyway. But it does sit up and doesn't do much. SO really, my 184cm ski is effectively a very short one. 

I briefly tested a 172cm Cham 87 as well. Turns even tighter (14m radius vs. 16m@184cm) Also absorbs choppy bumps extremely well, but it does so closer to your boots, so some of the impact does make it through. The impacts of the bumps happen closer to your boot, so there is less ski in between to soak it up. 

 

I may have vids of all this. 

Thanks for the insight.  I have no reason to believe that these ski's won't work well in 3D snow due to the rockered tip and pin tail (my S7's have proven this for me).  However, as an 87mm ski I'm more concerned about how well they handle packed bumps and/or steep terrain (I'd expect groomers not be their forte, but this is not a priority for me in a ski).  Does the wide tip help with initial turn engagement or is it so rockered that all it does it get in the way in the packed bumps (like my S7's)?  And I'd expect the flat tail to help control the turn finish (with the pin tail to make it easier to disengage), but it's tendency to skid doesn't sound good to me (skidding = intermediate ski).  This discussion is no substitute for trying these (especially given how unique the design is), but I'm "layed up" for much of this ski season, so talk will be my only outlet.  BTW - what are your size/level stats (I'm 5'5", 130lbs, 8ish level skills)?

post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
 

  Does the wide tip help with initial turn engagement or is it so rockered that all it does it get in the way in the packed bumps (like my S7's)?  BTW - what are your size/level stats (I'm 5'5", 130lbs, 8ish level skills)?

 

Neither, really. When you say 'packed bumps', do you mean moguls? Haven't seen many of those yet this season. 

 

182cm tall, 83kg, level 3+ skill in DIN terms. (=skiing fast on steep slopes) That's 6 feet and 183 pounds converted. 

post #81 of 83

 

I think he means 'tight moguls'*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
 

 

Neither, really. When you say 'packed bumps', do you mean moguls?








*I'm pretty sure there's a job creator joke in there.

post #82 of 83
Quote:

Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

I think he means 'tight moguls'*

Yeah, by "bumps" I did mean moguls and generally of the fairly tight/big variety, since that's what they generally become unless the trail gets groomed regularly (which is not usually the case for most expert runs).

post #83 of 83

Haven't had to ski those with the Chams yet. 

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Cham WOW! and another 2013 Dynastar, the Outland 87