Interesting conversation today in a clinic with our instructors about flexion in a wedge turn. Two different opinions with two different outcomes. Interested to hear others thoughts as this relates directly to high level skiing and teaching the movements of expert skiing in a wedge turn. This topic also relates to the other thread here regarding ankle flexion.
thoughts?
I hope people pitch in. Bud, would you care to prime the pump with the two outcomes your group encountered?
Bud, what do you mean with vertical vs lateral? Do you mean that a vertical flex is flexing both legs the same amount?
Wow, no one responding here. Bud, the flexion options might need to be explained for the thread to make sense to the readers here. Do we move upward with both legs extending equally, do we move sideways by extending one and flexing the other. Do we use a combination of both? Is it active or passive flexing and extending? What do the skis do when we use each of these options?
There is very little change in a wedge turn, but it's there and it's the same as a "normal" turn.
There will be flexion of both at the bottom of the turn, and a slight rise coming out.
There is a slight extension into the turn so yes it's more lateral - into the turn.
This can actually just be caused by the release of the inside ski into the turn, allowing the body to go inside, and now you've got long leg/short leg. There's not a lot of difference though since the speeds are very low and terrain flattish.
Inside will flex more.
Not getting to neutral before starting new turn leads to pushing and twisting.
The key is releasing the skis, which requires slight tipping.
If you do wedge turns slow enough, and get to neutral before starting the new turn, guiding the tips into the turn is natural and easy.
Going too fast will cause all sorts of problems.
What exactly is the question we are to discuss?
What Tog said. At all levels you're looking for movement towards the inside of the new turn, as well as flattening the new inside ski. Together that typically requires flexing the new inside leg and extending the new outside one to move the COM over the new inside ski. In a parallel turn the COM should get completely inside the skis; in a wedge turn or wedge christie it's partway there.
There are a lot of nuances to both styles of wedge turns. And just relying on whether the legs are getting long or short together or at different times leave some important points out from my perspective.
For the long leg short leg lateral version it should not be as simple as just shortening one leg and lengthening the other. This can lead to pushing on the outside ski. I like to clarify that we are flattening the new inside ski releasing the edge as we flex the new inside leg. This sets up a more passive directional movement into the turn which is then accompanied by the new outside leg lengthening as the pressure builds on the outside ski and the turn develops. Steering should be continuous throughout the turn. Ankles are really working opposite to each other to varying degrees, with one closing (dorsi) as the other one opens (plantar).
The traditional vertical way, if I can call it that, would be to extend both legs at the same time creating the need for a deliberate active directional move into the turn and stronger steering movements to start the turn as well. Here ankles work more in unison, opening through the first half of the turn, and closing through the second half of the turn.
I have been instructed before that from a certification perspective when you have one ski flat the skier is no longer making a wedge turn, even if the skis remain in a wedge relationship. The ski's edges need to remain in an opposing relationship along with opposing position. I'll leave that one up to the examiners. we can reduce the edge without totally flattening the ski. From a teaching perspective I want to teach the common themes that a skier builds on as they move from beginner to expert? So, I need to include flattening the ski along with steering movements in a wedge turn?
Not sure if this is exactly where you wanted to go Bud, but these distinctions are important to me when talk of different ways to make a wedge turn comes up.
The moves are slight!
Don't see total flattening, but there's some tipping here:
Video by Bob Barnes http://www.epicski.com/a/wedge-turns
There is flattening happening. Stop it at 1:25 and you will see the inside ski very close to flat and the outside ski nicely edged. You also see it showing in the legs as well. Nice continuous foot and leg steering as well, showing through the tip lead that develops through the turn.This repeats back and forth throughout the video. Nice video, thanks Tog.
How about forward in the direction of travel? What does lateral get you other than behind? And up, you're just working against gravity, no?
There are a lot of nuances to both styles of wedge turns. And just relying on whether the legs are getting long or short together or at different times leave some important points out from my perspective.
For the long leg short leg lateral version it should not be as simple as just shortening one leg and lengthening the other. This can lead to pushing on the outside ski. I like to clarify that we are flattening the new inside ski releasing the edge as we flex the new inside leg. This sets up a more passive directional movement into the turn which is then accompanied by the new outside leg lengthening as the pressure builds on the outside ski and the turn develops. Steering should be continuous throughout the turn. Ankles are really working opposite to each other to varying degrees, with one closing (dorsi) as the other one opens (plantar).
The traditional vertical way, if I can call it that, would be to extend both legs at the same time creating the need for a deliberate active directional move into the turn and stronger steering movements to start the turn as well. Here ankles work more in unison, opening through the first half of the turn, and closing through the second half of the turn.
I have been instructed before that from a certification perspective when you have one ski flat the skier is no longer making a wedge turn, even if the skis remain in a wedge relationship. The ski's edges need to remain in an opposing relationship along with opposing position. I'll leave that one up to the examiners. we can reduce the edge without totally flattening the ski. From a teaching perspective I want to teach the common themes that a skier builds on as they move from beginner to expert? So, I need to include flattening the ski along with steering movements in a wedge turn?
Not sure if this is exactly where you wanted to go Bud, but these distinctions are important to me when talk of different ways to make a wedge turn comes up.
Good thoughts RicB!
If we are teaching expert movements in a wedge turn, then I think of the primary reason for flexion in a wedge turn is simply to balance against what small turning forces we encounter. This is done by moving slightly inside the turn by flexing the inside leg only enough to naturally balance just like we would tip unconsciously to the inside when riding a bicycle slowly around a turn. Using this lateral flexion we also create the strong inside half or appropriate counter for the speed and pitch. This then facilitates a functional extension to re-center and release of the turn, permitting the tips to seek the fall line aided by active steering of the feet. This method of flexion/extension also facilitates a matching of the inside ski into a christie. It is with this method we can simply 1) increase the speed 2) increase the pitch, or 3) narrow the wedge to achieve a matching of the skis. If we begin the turn with accurate movements the christie phase will be easy and natural rather than forced or mechanical.
Conversely, the arbitrary vertical flexion and extension I see some instructors demonstrating leads to the hips and shoulders squaring up or worse rotating ahead of the skis. This also leads to the dreaded reverse tip lead and edge locked inside ski, and active weight shifts with the upper body.
So my point is although the flexion/extension movements in a wedge turn are very subtle, it is important we understand and demonstrate the correct kind of flexion and extension which transfers into expert skiing. I think of flexion movements as being primarily lateral to balance against the turning forces which keeps the outside leg long and strong and full travel available for terrain absorption or releasing the turn.
There is very little change in a wedge turn, but it's there and it's the same as a "normal" turn.
There will be flexion of both at the bottom of the turn, and a slight rise coming out.
There is a slight extension into the turn so yes it's more lateral - into the turn.
This can actually just be caused by the release of the inside ski into the turn, allowing the body to go inside, and now you've got long leg/short leg. There's not a lot of difference though since the speeds are very low and terrain flattish.
Inside will flex more.
Not getting to neutral before starting new turn leads to pushing and twisting.
The key is releasing the skis, which requires slight tipping.
If you do wedge turns slow enough, and get to neutral before starting the new turn, guiding the tips into the turn is natural and easy.
Going too fast will cause all sorts of problems.
What exactly is the question we are to discuss?
Agree with everything you say here Tog except perhaps with the highlighted text. I believe if we flex both equally at the bottom of the turn it causes an unwanted squaring of the hips. Yes it is a subtle difference but I believe key to positive progress!?
I am not so much flexing my ankles as I am balancing over the inside edge of the outside ski and the turning forces created which causes my uphill\inside leg to flex a bit (equalizing ankle flex). I don't feel there is any need to actively flex the ankles here? (When we are skiing in 130 and 150 flex boots, how much can we flex our ankles in a wedge turn?) Then simultaneously extending to re-center, releasing the turn and steering the ski tips into the fall line.
As we can see in Bob's POV camera view of the ski tips and the inside tip lead, the slight flexing of the inside leg and the simultaneous turning of both feet creates a slight counter. If he were flexing both legs equally would this same result occur?
Yes I agree that the inside is flexed more.
All the movements are really slight though.
The biggest problem is these are often done too fast and on too steep a pitch.
Conversely, if it's too flat and the snow is sticky, people don't move and start contorting with impatience
People make way too huge movements and want to muscle everything around.
Sometimes they have the hips rotated to the outside and the downhill ski edge locked and at almost right angles to their path.
Even for good skiers demoing them, the key is patience.
I have been instructed before that from a certification perspective when you have one ski flat the skier is no longer making a wedge turn, even if the skis remain in a wedge relationship. The ski's edges need to remain in an opposing relationship along with opposing position. I'll leave that one up to the examiners. we can reduce the edge without totally flattening the ski. From a teaching perspective I want to teach the common themes that a skier builds on as they move from beginner to expert? So, I need to include flattening the ski along with steering movements in a wedge turn?
So, interms of RicB's statement about both skis being kept on opposing edges, how can one not flatten the inside ski if one moves slightly inside the turn?
What's your view on this? Reduced edge angle, but still on slightly big toe edge for the inside ski?
How do you teach the release to start the turn?
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Yes I agree that the inside is flexed more.
All the movements are really slight though.
The biggest problem is these are often done too fast and on too steep a pitch.
Conversely, if it's too flat and the snow is sticky, people don't move and start contorting with impatience
People make way too huge movements and want to muscle everything around.
Sometimes they have the hips rotated to the outside and the downhill ski edge locked and at almost right angles to their path.
Even for good skiers demoing them, the key is patience.
So, interms of RicB's statement about both skis being kept on opposing edges, how can one not flatten the inside ski if one moves slightly inside the turn?
What's your view on this? Reduced edge angle, but still on slightly big toe edge for the inside ski?
How do you teach the release to start the turn?
.
That is strictly from a certification demo standpoint and not from a teaching perspective. I probably should not have brought that point up. I did so only because I do not really agree. I am interested in hearing Bud's perspective on this though.
Jezz why do I do something different from all of you.
I flex both ankles with complimentary movements in the other leg joints to start the turn while stabilizing the hips with the torso. Simultaneously with the ankle flex I roll both feet slightly in the direction of the new turn and steer both feet. With that rolling of the feet, the hips do not twist but move diagonally towards the new turn ever so slightly. My wedge turn movement feel subtle and more like my rail road track turn movements. Nothing sequential like you guys are talking. Am I missing the boat?
Flexing the inside ankle and opening the outside ankle seems like dropping the inside hip. Wouldn't that un-level the hips and tip the upper body into the turn? Maybe I have been gone to long.
Jezz why do I do something different from all of you.
I flex both ankles with complimentary movements in the other leg joints to start the turn while stabilizing the hips with the torso. Simultaneously with the ankle flex I roll both feet slightly in the direction of the new turn and steer both feet. With that rolling of the feet, the hips do not twist but move diagonally towards the new turn ever so slightly. My wedge turn movement feel subtle and more like my rail road track turn movements. Nothing sequential like you guys are talking. Am I missing the boat?
I didn't see anybody talking about sequential movements. The whole 'release the inside ski edge'/'shorten the inside leg and lengthen the outside leg'/'move COM into the new turn' thing should be happening at once. Those are all complimentary movements.
In a wedge turn the movements are all a lot smaller/more subtle compared to a parallel turn.
I guess it could, but dropping the hip feels like a really unnatural move to me. If you angulate a little at the hip everything stays level.
So, interms of RicB's statement about both skis being kept on opposing edges, how can one not flatten the inside ski if one moves slightly inside the turn?
What's your view on this? Reduced edge angle, but still on slightly big toe edge for the inside ski?
How do you teach the release to start the turn?
.
That is strictly from a certification demo standpoint and not from a teaching perspective. I probably should not have brought that point up. I did so only because I do not really agree. I am interested in hearing Bud's perspective on this though.
We must understand "edge release" does not mean a flat ski rather moving toward a flat ski, and is not an edge change by any stretch. The edge release is a movement which releases the edge's grip in the old turn allowing our inertia to begin moving, unaffected by the edge's grip. So when linking wedge turns the skis should remain on opposing edges, since this is the definition of a wedge, even though the edge angles vary throughout the turns. Ron LeMaster discusses in his book "Ultimate Skiing" chapter 2, pg.18, Platform Angle. "The angle between the force exerted on the ski and the platform the ski cuts into the snow - determines whether the ski holds or slips." When we decrease the angle of the ski (release the edge) to less than a right angle to the force we are exerting on it, it will slip. This does not necessitate a "flat" ski to the snow, merely a reduced angle to permit the ski to slip.
This being said, we must also keep in mind the goal is to create a christie with accurate movements in the wedge turns, therefore the movement to release the edge is the beginning of the christie. In teaching a student we want them to christie, conversely in an exam, the task of linking wedge turns should not show any christies yet demonstrate the accurate movements which will elicit said christie. The candidate must be careful to remain in a wedge yet demonstrate effective edge release to begin the turns allowing the tips to seek the fall line.
Jezz why do I do something different from all of you.
I flex both ankles with complimentary movements in the other leg joints to start the turn while stabilizing the hips with the torso. Simultaneously with the ankle flex I roll both feet slightly in the direction of the new turn and steer both feet. With that rolling of the feet, the hips do not twist but move diagonally towards the new turn ever so slightly. My wedge turn movement feel subtle and more like my rail road track turn movements. Nothing sequential like you guys are talking. Am I missing the boat?
Flexing the inside ankle and opening the outside ankle seems like dropping the inside hip. Wouldn't that un-level the hips and tip the upper body into the turn? Maybe I have been gone to long.
I could be wrong here, but I don't necessarily flex my ankles in wedge turns
I do however rest against the tongues of my boots which are set up to place my knee caps to plumb directly over the toes of my boots (not over-flexed or under-flexed). Skiing in 150 flex boots at wedge turn speeds is not conducive to much ankle flexion. I do find that I flex slightly, my knees and hips, while keeping the angle of my shins and my spine relatively parallel.
I find that instructors who tend to use flexion of both legs are predisposed to unwanted rotation of the hips and shoulders and generally end up with the hips twisted over the downhill ski. Conversely, by keeping the outside leg long and inclining the outside leg to balance against the turning forces, while keeping the head over the outside ski, resulting in the pelvis moving laterally and level, rather than moving vertically or a dropping of the inside hip, we create a nice counter. The parka zipper remains relatively perpendicular to the slope throughout. This move creates a nicely appropriate hip counter and the subsequent release and extension into the new turn is a move straight in the direction the hips are pointing, just like a parallel turn. The mechanics are the same and isn't that a good idea?
I happen to think that flattening the inside ski is key to the whole thing. Without doing that, the steering of the inside ski takes a lot more effort. Where flexion comes in is when you have skiers that think they have to stomp the inside ski into the ground to flatten it. Those guys need to think about being softer on the inside leg (flexing) while they stand strong (extend) on the outside leg.
I could be wrong here, but I don't necessarily flex my ankles in wedge turns I do however rest against the tongues of my boots which are set up to place my knee caps to plumb directly over the toes of my boots (not over-flexed or under-flexed). Skiing in 150 flex boots at wedge turn speeds is not conducive to much ankle flexion. I do find that I flex slightly, my knees and hips, while keeping the angle of my shins and my spine relatively parallel.
I find that instructors who tend to use flexion of both legs are predisposed to unwanted rotation of the hips and shoulders and generally end up with the hips twisted over the downhill ski. Conversely, by keeping the outside leg long and inclining the outside leg to balance against the turning forces, while keeping the head over the outside ski, resulting in the pelvis moving laterally and level, rather than moving vertically or a dropping of the inside hip, we create a nice counter. The parka zipper remains relatively perpendicular to the slope throughout. This move creates a nicely appropriate hip counter and the subsequent release and extension into the new turn is a move straight in the direction the hips are pointing, just like a parallel turn. The mechanics are the same and isn't that a good idea?
My ankle flex to start a wedge turn is not a whole lot and I can't imagine trying to actually move the boot with a 150 flex. I have lost 50+ lb over the summer and I am having enough trouble with my old boots with a 110 flex.
Bud, I would whole heartedly agree with you that flexing both ankles and tipping simultaneously and steering both legs usually results in hip rotation into the turn. That is the point where its easy and makes sense to introduce core stabilization to keep the pelvis fixed with the upper body. edging and steering against a solid pelvis keeps a skier in the front seat all the way through. When skiers can feel good stabilization they automatically ski into and out of counter, stay in the front seat and nail the wedge.
In my honest opinion, going to a long leg on the outside and shortening the inside to flatten the inside ski works and works very good. Short leg/long leg is also positive movements in the right direction but the path to expert skiing will be a lot longer or will stall out completely. Short leg long leg should be skied into just like counter. An intentional shortening and lengthening artificially moves the upper body. What I mean by that is the new inside half relaxes to let the pelvis move laterally. You cannot steer an outside leg against a relaxed inside half. The outside ankle does not fully close and so outside ski dominance is delayed or an active weight transfer takes place. Without teaching core stabilization, you end up with advanced to expert skiers who don't get the skis on edge at the earliest possible time (edge change) and hang onto the turn to long. Why, because the outside leg is only steering if at all in the shaping phase of the turn. These skiers have to push and pull the feet or drive through with the outside hand to stay parallel on a round line in the intiation and finish phases.
Robin Barnes had an interesting article on this subject in last winter's 32 Degrees.
Pierre, I believe we are on the same path here? Your interpretation of my description has taken it to an extreme or a bit too far! The movement should be reactionary to the turning forces just enough to balance against the turning forces and nothing more or arbitrary. (see bob's video above) The movement is subtle at slower speeds and pitches but this method moves the body into a good countered position permitting active steering of the feet.
We will see two distinctly different outcomes if the demonstrator/instructor shows strong ankle and knee flexion on the outside ski vs. keeping that leg longer and moving the hips laterally by a slight flexion of the inside knee to balance against the turning forces. This simple and clear difference sets the stage for future outcomes and an efficient path to parallel IMO.
Flexion in a wedge turn should be functional and appropriate for the task, terrain, and speed. Don't go up and down for the sake of showing flexion/extension as it demonstrates to me the instructor does not understand it's purpose.
Pierre, out of curiosity....how do you introduce "core stabilization"?
We will see two distinctly different outcomes if the demonstrator/instructor shows strong ankle and knee flexion on the outside ski
Pierre, out of curiosity....how do you introduce "core stabilization"?
Whow Bud, I did not say knee flexion I said ankle flexion and I did not say strong ankle flexion either. Everything is from a fairly tall position.
Core stabilization can be introduced as a gross muscle movement. Basically the same muscle movements needed to rotate the new inside hip forward. The hip does not actually move much of any forward as its resisted by the flexing of the outside ankle and steering movements on the outside leg. This sets up an easy scenario of steering the inside foot simultaneously as the hip is driven laterally towards the new inside foot by the action on the new outside leg. Its often easier for students to get this is a slightly wider wedge.
Introducing "inside half" core stabilization in this way creates and instant outside foot dominance even with very little turning force and a real sense of balance.
I can steer my outside skis with out my inside ski on the ground...
Kneale I am a mear 165 lb soaking wet. Back down to the weight and body I had in my 20's but I have better energy than I had in my 20's.
Hope you get well soon.
Whow Bud, I did not say knee flexion I said ankle flexion and I did not say strong ankle flexion either. Everything is from a fairly tall position.
Core stabilization can be introduced as a gross muscle movement. Basically the same muscle movements needed to rotate the new inside hip forward. The hip does not actually move much of any forward as its resisted by the flexing of the outside ankle and steering movements on the outside leg. This sets up an easy scenario of steering the inside foot simultaneously as the hip is driven laterally towards the new inside foot by the action on the new outside leg. Its often easier for students to get this is a slightly wider wedge.
Introducing "inside half" core stabilization in this way creates and instant outside foot dominance even with very little turning force and a real sense of balance.
How do you propose moving to balance against the turning forces? When you increase the speed a bit how does the flexion progress and how do you balance against the increased forces? This is key and where different methods produce very different outcomes. How do you think Bob's flexion movements would progress with the advent of more speed?
Oh yes! and welcome back Pierre!
How do you propose moving to balance against the turning forces? When you increase the speed a bit how does the flexion progress and how do you balance against the increased forces? This is key and where different methods produce very different outcomes. How do you think Bob's flexion movements would progress with the advent of more speed?
Oh yes! and welcome back Pierre!
It's natural to balance against turning forces if you have a strong inside half and have established balance and dominance on the outside foot as a result. Flexion progreses natually to a shorter inside leg and long outside leg. Done incorrectly, and that is easy with any wedge progression, a skier would likely progress to rotary pushoff. The movement patterns that I am proposing are not as natural as what you are saying and takes some patience to have a student give you the appropriate movments so I think a more conventional approach such as what you use would be more appropriate in a large group lesson of short duration. I don't get those very often anymore.
I think Bob's methods would lead quickly to parallel skiing with positive movements into the turn and eventually to dropping the inside hand and hip to finish the turn. Especially when the hammer is put down. If you don't teach core stabilization, you don't get it. How many skiers do that?
I don't believe a stable core and hips are difficult if we focus on teaching the turning power coming from the feet and legs, To this end is the reason I propose the lateral flexion is better than a vertical flexion. One promotes skiing into and out of a countered strong inside half and the other promotes hip and shoulder rotation. It is pretty clear and simple to me. Your description of teaching "core stabilization" seems a bit confusing on paper? It we move correctly to permit the skis to turn with the least amount of effort, core stabilization is easy.
Watch Bob Barnes' free skiing videos and you will see the same movements I described for the wedge turns. The outside leg stays long, inside leg flexes, hips move laterally rather than up and down like Tigger on a pogo stick. This is all I am suggesting yet the simple subtle difference in the beginning can set the stage for the future outcomes.
I don't believe a stable core and hips are difficult if we focus on teaching the turning power coming from the feet and legs, To this end is the reason I propose the lateral flexion is better than a vertical flexion. One promotes skiing into and out of a countered strong inside half and the other promotes hip and shoulder rotation. It is pretty clear and simple to me. Your description of teaching "core stabilization" seems a bit confusing on paper? It we move correctly to permit the skis to turn with the least amount of effort, core stabilization is easy.
Watch Bob Barnes' free skiing videos and you will see the same movements I described for the wedge turns. The outside leg stays long, inside leg flexes, hips move laterally rather than up and down like Tigger on a pogo stick. This is all I am suggesting yet the simple subtle difference in the beginning can set the stage for the future outcomes.
Well I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I guess I don't see where your confusion is with my discription. My take on your discription was originally an extension of the outside ankle as well as leg. In re reading things, that may not be the case.
As far as Bob's video goes. I got the wrong Bob in my head in my previous posts. In the video I don't see an extension of the outside ankle I see a closing of the outside ankle and a tipping of the feet resulting a very active outside foot. Pretty much what I have been talking about. In the video the extension of the outside leg is pretty much knee. The inside knee also extends slightly but not as much as the outside leg. The result is a shorter inside leg and lateral movement.
Two things come to mind. What some here might be calling a slight extension of the outside ankle might actually be plantar flexion. That would make sense.
The second thing that comes to my mind is that our movements are the same with the exception being that I am promoting some awareness of core stabilization to counteract the naturally over tense gross muscle movements most students are using and more or less somewhat force the movements you see in the video. Once these movements are happening things relax out a bit. I have enough trouble trying to get ski instructors to ski like the video let alone a newbie.
Been lurking after posing some questions, good to see the old guard coming out in numbers again...
...IMO that's been missing here lately.
Let me add a thought or two to to the great stuff being discussed here.
Balancing on an inclined slope naturally creates a bit of long leg / short leg. That changes as we turn and eventually it becomes the mirror opposite. Nothing new here but IMO that gets overlooked when we focus too much on our movements from that internal perspective. I also want to express the idea that Active flexing and extending may not be the best way to accomplish this outcome. Especially in a slow speed wedge turn where the pull of gravity is mostly a vertical vector and the resulting balance axis would be closer to vertical as well. Which leads me to the supposition that left to the genius of the body, balancing on (not against) the turning skis is fairly easy and something we would naturally do. At least as long as we relax enough to allow it to happen. Witness all the folks riding on a city bus and not actively thinking about balancing. Over thinking it will more than likely lead to artificially trying to produce balance instead of just allowing it to occur.
Another idea is abducting the inside knee enough to allow the release to occur and setting in motion the series of events that will produce the new turn. I know many here will argue that it's more a function of the ankle rolling but it is questionable if we have that much RoM inside the ski boots. It's also a natural consequence of leg steering and doing so in ski boot and on an inclined surface. Not looking for an argument here, just suggesting a slightly different perspective.
Finally I want to chime in on Core stability. Sufficient core tension for ski turns amounts to pulling the belly button inward towards the spine and keeping it there. More than that and we create rigidity in the sacro lumbar region and possibly the hip joints. Thus necessitating a need for more active and conscious lateral and vertical flexing / extending movement. The key here (at least to me) is how much we can relax and allow the first half of the turn to occur. When we do that we are set up to guide the skis back across the hill without a lot of focus on anything but line. So IMO, the answer to Bud's question is both lateral and vertical F/E occur but if it's conscious and deliberate it's very hard to do accurately. Relax and allow the body to figure it out.
