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Bad conditions are dangerous too - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post

Quote:


Sorry, but the tone of this and some other posts hits me wrong:  I love how people on the computer are so much more capable, skillful, and knowledgeable than anyone else.  Maybe you are, but the idea that one can control everything in a situation like this is ludicrous.  First of all, I did consciously fall on to my side/back.  "Luckily" was question marked b/c I was using it ironically; there was going to be no "good" position for what happened next.  I did slide feet first -- until my ski hit a tree and flipped me backwards.  I did put my arms out to shield my head -- until my poles tangled in vines and yanked my arms.   Second, while I might well have made some errors in how fast I skied, where I skied, etc. these are the kinds of errors we all make at some time.  I defy any one of you to deny you have EVER done something that couldn't have gone wrong if just one or two things had been different.  Just moving on skis opens up the possibility of things happening according to the laws of chance and physics and environment. 

 

I posted b/c I was willing to use myself as an example; I wanted folks to think more about the heightened risk environment out there.  To say I should have been more active in changing what happened when physics took over is really a red herring.  Try telling that to Herman Maier or Sarah Burke.

 

Like I said before: be careful out there.
 

 


Tell it, T!

I agree with your observation about the prolificacy of self-annoited "so much better and badder than thou infallible super-experts" populating internet chat forums.  

I'm sure you already know all too well that you were likely moving a bit too fast at the time, but what skier that's been at it for more than a day or so hasn't had the occasional momentary lapse in judgement, be it with regard to speed, line, edge angle, or whatever?  I've had more than I can count, yet 99% of those less than perfect split-second decisions seemed to end with a lesson learned and without injury.....as yours evidently did. 

 

When I was working, it was a common axiom among my colleagues that in "dynamic situations" even if your technique wasn't exactly right or totally in keeping with your training, as long you walked away uninjured and with the end goal accomplished, it had been "right enough."

Glad you're O-K, and Thanks for sharing.

 

post #32 of 54

My bro in law was skiing Vail two weeks ago before the 8" storm.  He was in a mogul field and hit a tree stump at the bottom of one, insta ejected and supermaned onto the ice mogul below.  He's sore.

post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

From what I see most West coast skiers can not ski hard snow or really want to. That's great more for me. I might not be a full on Ice carver,but I will be if these conditions continue.


That was kind of my point above - there is plenty of terrain open to work on these skills if you want or need to without it being dangerous.  I have taken it as a bit of silver lining - we will all likely see more of this Global Weirding in our future and some forced remedial work hasn't been the worst thing in the world.

 

 

 

 

post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post...If feet first were you not using the angle of your boots to deflect your path so as to avoid trees and larger rocks and deflect/absorb blows, if head first were you not angling your forearms to deflect blows?

 


Bad advice.

 

Learn self-arrrest technique and practice it until it becomes second nature. When Bob Peters first posted his self arrest guide, I pointed out a way his technique could be improved upon and he agreed that my variation would work better. Instead of grabbing the pole with your free hand mid-shaft and clutching it against your body with your arm, slide your hand down the pole to the basket. Press the pole into the snow while pushing your body away from the snow. This will provide better leverage and put more weight on the pole tip, stopping slide sooner.

post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post

Quote:


Sorry, but the tone of this and some other posts hits me wrong:  I love how people on the computer are so much more capable, skillful, and knowledgeable than anyone else.  Maybe you are, but the idea that one can control everything in a situation like this is ludicrous.  First of all, I did consciously fall on to my side/back.  "Luckily" was question marked b/c I was using it ironically; there was going to be no "good" position for what happened next.  I did slide feet first -- until my ski hit a tree and flipped me backwards.  I did put my arms out to shield my head -- until my poles tangled in vines and yanked my arms.   Second, while I might well have made some errors in how fast I skied, where I skied, etc. these are the kinds of errors we all make at some time.  I defy any one of you to deny you have EVER done something that couldn't have gone wrong if just one or two things had been different.  Just moving on skis opens up the possibility of things happening according to the laws of chance and physics and environment. 

 

I posted b/c I was willing to use myself as an example; I wanted folks to think more about the heightened risk environment out there.  To say I should have been more active in changing what happened when physics took over is really a red herring.  Try telling that to Herman Maier or Sarah Burke.

 

Like I said before: be careful out there.
 

 


Good on you thenicon14.gif.  I see now that you didn't give up.  It's hard to read between the lines.  I just wanted to pass on the advice of doing exactly what you have now explained that you did (except for the falling part of course wink.gif).

 

I'm not suggesting that you or I, or anyone else, can control everything, or that anyone can always be quick enough at all times to make the right move in time.  I'm not suggesting I am superman at flying along without the requisite equipment attached; I can recall a fall last year (or was it the year before?) where I wasn't quick enough to let go of a jammed up pole which subsequently impacted my ribs.  Yeah, anyone can post anything on the internet, but I'm more than just talk, I have had a few dozen high speed falls over the decades (and have the broken bones and scars to prove it), and wanted to pass on a bit of what I've learned from it,  things like protect your head, try and control your path as best as you can, don't touch down with smaller appendages, be careful of the angles of contact, in short, do what you can do.

 

I agree it's better not to fall,  but if you do fall all is not lost, so don't give up and keep your efforts up PAST the end.

 

post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post


Bad advice.

 

Learn self-arrrest technique and practice it until it becomes second nature. When Bob Peters first posted his self arrest guide, I pointed out a way his technique could be improved upon and he agreed that my variation would work better. Instead of grabbing the pole with your free hand mid-shaft and clutching it against your body with your arm, slide your hand down the pole to the basket. Press the pole into the snow while pushing your body away from the snow. This will provide better leverage and put more weight on the pole tip, stopping slide sooner.

There's a time for self arrest, and a time for steering around a rock.  If your going a mile a minute and a rock is directly in front of you, I recommend avoiding the rock.  Never the less that is a good self arrest technique to apply in the right situation.
 

 

post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

There's a time for self arrest, and a time for steering around a rock.  If your going a mile a minute and a rock is directly in front of you, I recommend avoiding the rock.  Never the less that is a good self arrest technique to apply in the right situation.
 

 


Learn self-arrest technique and practice it until it becomes second nature. It is always better than trying to control a slide with your ski boots, which is a VERY BAD IDEA.

 

post #38 of 54
The surgeon who put my leg back together said he'd guess the fracturing occurred during my rolling on the hard snow rather than from the "chop block" type of contact the other guy caused.

http://www.epicski.com/t/108711/ah-well-oh-crap
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

There's a time for self arrest, and a time for steering around a rock.  If your going a mile a minute and a rock is directly in front of you, I recommend avoiding the rock.  Never the less that is a good self arrest technique to apply in the right situation.
 

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post


Learn self-arrest technique and practice it until it becomes second nature. It is always better than trying to control a slide with your ski boots, which is a VERY BAD IDEA.

 

 

 

When warranted.....combine the two?

Avoid by any means the rock, stump, or other immovable object directly in your face, and then go into an immediate self-arrest....

 

An "poor decision" tale:  I've since forgotten where I was, but I was once gliding to a slow stop in a tight glade when I decided to grab a stout tree limb to stop immediately.

A second later, my broken left middle finger told me I had misjudged my "slow" speed.  Easily my dumbest injury.....
 

 

post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

There's 2 kinds of Sportsmen. I think TC is the first kind. Ones that can and ones that go home when their panties get wet. rolleyes.gif It's an outdoor sport,deal with it.



 

Did someone mention Snowgasm's?

post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockley Valley View Post

You guys make me laugh, cause clearly none of you ski in ontario....



I skied 3 days at MSLM after christmas nanananana do to!!!!

 

post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post



 

Did someone mention Snowgasm's?



You just know I started to type something and got rid of it after thinking about it. ( thinking is not one of my strong points as you know) so you can make up anything in your head that you think I might have said and you will be close.eek.gif

 

post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Boot View Post



You just know I started to type something and got rid of it after thinking about it. ( thinking is not one of my strong points as you know) so you can make up anything in your head that you think I might have said and you will be close.eek.gif

 


You just know that my post was edited and simplified.  Just imagine what I really wanted to say! eek.gif

 

post #44 of 54



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post

Quote:


Sorry, but the tone of this and some other posts hits me wrong:  I love how people on the computer are so much more capable, skillful, and knowledgeable than anyone else.  Maybe you are, but the idea that one can control everything in a situation like this is ludicrous.  First of all, I did consciously fall on to my side/back.  "Luckily" was question marked b/c I was using it ironically; there was going to be no "good" position for what happened next.  I did slide feet first -- until my ski hit a tree and flipped me backwards.  I did put my arms out to shield my head -- until my poles tangled in vines and yanked my arms.   Second, while I might well have made some errors in how fast I skied, where I skied, etc. these are the kinds of errors we all make at some time.  I defy any one of you to deny you have EVER done something that couldn't have gone wrong if just one or two things had been different.  Just moving on skis opens up the possibility of things happening according to the laws of chance and physics and environment. 

 

I posted b/c I was willing to use myself as an example; I wanted folks to think more about the heightened risk environment out there.  To say I should have been more active in changing what happened when physics took over is really a red herring.  Try telling that to Herman Maier or Sarah Burke.

 

Like I said before: be careful out there.

 

I totally deny it! - things did go wrong, I didn't need one or two things different.

Skiing is constantly managing what you're doing wrong. Ya try to get the big stuff right though, like staying off the brown stuff. Look for the white!

 

Our humanity may be tempered by powder and computers but dirt should bring out the best in us!

Anyway,...

 

massacceleration_thumbnail.gif

www.snorgtees.com
 

 

post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skierish View Post



 

 

 

When warranted.....combine the two?

Avoid by any means the rock, stump, or other immovable object directly in your face, and then go into an immediate self-arrest...

 


In my opinion, digging a pole in will get you quickly stopped and even quicker into a feet first position. Trying to slow a slide with ski boots can cause the boots to catch while the rest of you vaults over your boots, launching you head first into that rock you're trying to avoid.

post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post

Quote:


 

I posted b/c I was willing to use myself as an example; I wanted folks to think more about the heightened risk environment out there.  To say I should have been more active in changing what happened when physics took over is really a red herring.  Try telling that to Herman Maier or Sarah Burke.

 

Like I said before: be careful out there.
 

 



I'm glad you were able to walk away with only bruise.  

 

I agree with your last statement.   

 

With the way condition have been we keep to be looking far down the slope and bring the speed down.  

 

Last storm has helped. We still need snow.  Things are getting polished quickly and if you moving in the right direction you too can find yourself in the same spot as tch found myself in.

 

THINK SNOW.

 

Hank

 

post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post


In my opinion, digging a pole in will get you quickly stopped and even quicker into a feet first position. Trying to slow a slide with ski boots can cause the boots to catch while the rest of you vaults over your boots, launching you head first into that rock you're trying to avoid.

Odds are pretty good that if you take a tumble you will be without your ski polls, unless you wrap the straps around your wrist, (WHICH IS A NO NO in the BC).   So the following is based on basic self arrest. 
The opinions vary in the mountaineering world about using your boots, but many experts absolutely tell you to dig your toes in and I agree.    I have used this technique several times and it works. You may hit a chunk and catch your toe, but you are trying to stop.   Last time I posted this I had people telling me how stupid I was, so this time I am going to start with the web links, If anyone disagrees with this, then you are disagreeing with the AAI and numerous mountaineers, If you disagree then put the links up backing your technique and people can decide on their own technique to use.   

Here is a quote from the American Alpine Institute (and they are actually talking about with crampons on which is way more controversial/ dangerous than ski boots) http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/01/self-arrest-techniques.html

 

  1. There is some debate on whether you should put your feet up or not. The concern -- as the guide in the video points out -- is that if you put your feet down and your crampon points catch, that you might flip head-over-heels. On the other hand, it might stop you more quickly. We teach people to put their toes into the snow to arrest the fall.

Here is another,   http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/171      Read the last paragraph, because the entire thread is about Axe self arrest except the last part.  

If you lose your ax in a fall, use your hands, elbows, knees, and boots to dig into the snow slope, using positioning similar to what you would use if you still had the ax. It may help to clasp your hands together against the slope so that you accumulate snow in them and create more friction. On harder snow, you can try to push out from the slope with your arms, placing your weight on your toes to create friction.

 


A vidoe, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bosa_P1a_Dw      using axe but emphasis on using feet

 

Here is another that specifies to dig boots in without crampons, which is different than the other description,   

(3) The final position when the arrest of the fall is completed should be with the head upslope, stomach on the slope, with the feet pointed downslope. If crampons are not worn, the toe of the boots may be dug into the slope to help arrest the fall. The ax is held diagonally across the chest, with the head of the ax by one shoulder and the spike near the opposite hip. One hand grasps the head of the ax, with the pick pointed into the slope, while the other hand is on the shaft near the spike, lifting up on it to prevent the spike from digging into the slope.

 

Another,  http://books.google.com/books?id=rR1N4OB1gBsC&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=self+arrest+techniques&source=bl&ots=OCdl9SVLKl&sig=Mel2C3IdPoBM2aiPOfAsbZbq0FU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iiATT_-oDoXZiAL_zY3kCQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=self%20arrest%20techniques&f=false

Read page 344  (WITHOUT AN AXE )

WITHOUT AN AXE

If you lose your ax in a fall, use your hands, elbows, knees, and boots to dig into the snow slope, using positioning similar to what you would use if you still had the ax. It may help to clasp your hands together against the slope so that you accumulate snow in them and create more friction. On harder snow, you can try to push out from the slope with your arms, placing your weight on your toes to create friction.

 

Or just go and read Craig Connallys book, "The Mountaineering Handbook"

Which says on page 197, (how to self arrest with nothing but your body).

Turn face into the snow and place the toes of the boots into the snow and cup your hands at your face, the points in contact in the snow are your points in the snow boots and your hands and elbows. 

 

So do what you want and believe what you want, but I will tell you with 100% certainty,   if the technique you are using isn't working and you are hauling ass towards death, you will dig in with your boots. I promise you that...   All that being said, no matter what you do, sometime it's just too steep and icy to stop using any technique.   

Hope this helps, and don't listen to people like like this poster, (whom I will not name), who actually said this (after telling me I was giving bad advice). 

 "To answer you question.  If I ever did find myself in a situation where I was careening down the hill from a fall....my first goal would be to regain control...not stop, just be in control, such that I am feet first, on my back.  From here I will do my best by rolling/leaning/draging an arm to try and steer around the rocks/cliffs or what have you.  This will give me the greatest chance of survival, much higher then trying to dig my heels or toes in and sedning myself into a head over heels tumbling scenario".   THIS IS BAD ADVICE since you are trying to avoid a cliff or rocks and will only look really cool while you die. 


 

 

 

 

 

post #48 of 54

If you've practiced enough, it's less likely you'll let go of your poles and more likely you'll have one ready and be using it before you know what's happening. I fall a lot which gives me a lot of chances to ingrain ski pole self arrest into a part of falling down, not something that happens after I fall down, but while I'm falling down. You are right about the pole straps. I haven't been using mine for a few years now. I guess it would be safer to use the straps on steep hardpack, where a slide for life might happen.

 

If you've lost your skis and poles, using your hands/arms to get yourself feet first and on your belly, then pushing up with your arms while digging in boots sounds like a good idea.  In most cases, you will still have either a ski or a pole to work with. 

post #49 of 54

Different situations call for different actions.  If you are heading for a smooth runout with no danger below the few obstacles in your way, you won't want to rip your arm off trying to stop,but if you're heading for a cliff with jagged rocks at the bottom of it, you will try and stop. 

 

BTW, I usually hang onto my poles.

post #50 of 54

A 25 year old woman from Denver died yesterday at Silverton.  Reports are that she fell and slid 1,500 feet.  She was on a guided run. 

post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post

A 25 year old woman from Denver died yesterday at Silverton.  Reports are that she fell and slid 1,500 feet.  She was on a guided run. 


Saw that, be interested in the details, that is a long long long tumble.  

 

post #52 of 54

Arne Backstrom's sliding fall was said to be 400 meters, 50 - 55*.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post


Saw that, be interested in the details, that is a long long long tumble.  

 



 

post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

Arne Backstrom's sliding fall was said to be 400 meters, 50 - 55*.
 



 


Must of been real icy...  sometimes you cannot fight gravity at that angle...      

 

post #54 of 54


he skied onto a different aspect of the mountain with ice surface, lost a ski right away. If he had a chance to hold his edge, he lost it when the ski came off. this is the account that circulated locally. hear say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post


Must of been real icy...  sometimes you cannot fight gravity at that angle...      

 



 

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