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Too much weight on inside ski.

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

I recently took a CSIA Instructors course at the local hill, and during the lesson, the instructor took video of my skiing. Upon reviewing it, we both agreed that the was something slightly amiss with my skiing, but we couldn't place it. Finally, the next day, during some medium radius turns, she told me that I was putting too much weight on my inside ski, which was causing the inside ski to be slightly ahead of the outside ski in a turn. Will this be a problem as I continue taking CSIA courses, and if so, do you have any drills to help this problem. She tried javelin turns with me, which seemed to help a bit. We both found that "pulling" the inside ski back so that it is level just led to too much forward pressure on the inside ski. I am 6'2", 230 lbs, and I was skiing on clapped out 168 Rossignol Scratch FS skis (I don't own a SL or GS ski). I have found that my boots have not been fitting as well lately, perhaps due to liner compression. The boots are a 75 flex, as I ski a lot of park and don't want a granite stiff boot. Earlier during the course, a narrow BOS was corrected, which was attributed to my park background. I have a muscular issue with my back, but it doesn't seem to have any effect when I am skiing. Sorry, I don't have any video to show you, hopefully I have explained enough. Can anyone help, I would like to be able to correct this issue?

post #2 of 17

Lots of things could cause that.  Being a park guy thou...i would guess, and I emphasis the word guess here, your cause might be attributed to starting turns with a slight downstem or heel push.  This displlaces the downhill ski forcing you to place excess wieght on the uphill ski....but again I emphasis "guess".  No one will be able to say much without vdieo.

post #3 of 17

He said the instructor told him his inside ski is slightly ahead of his outside ski in a turn!

 

That's a problem?

 

She didn't say he had excessive ssggital split, but a slight lead of the inside ski.

 

Pretty normal if you ask me. I am guessing it is something else that is the problem, not the slight inside tip lead.

 

Probably diverging tips, maybe stepping onto the uphill ski to start a turn and not coming out of neutral simultaneoulsy.

 

But like SD72 says need to see a video.


 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Lots of things could cause that.  Being a park guy thou...i would guess, and I emphasis the word guess here, your cause might be attributed to starting turns with a slight downstem or heel push.  This displlaces the downhill ski forcing you to place excess wieght on the uphill ski....but again I emphasis "guess".  No one will be able to say much without vdieo.



 

post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 

Is iPod video alright? I work at the hill tomorrow, should have time to get in a few runs between lessons. Hopefully it'll take video in the dark. Maybe I'll try to find the camera. Anyway, apparently too much weight is being placed on the inside ski, as well as a drop in the outside shoulder during the turn. She suggested a more extreme angulation to try to fix it, just wondering if you have any suggestions. Also, she said it was a fairly minor issue, will this have any effect on my progression through CSIA lessons?

 

The exact comment on the assessment sheet was- "Continue to think about having a slightly wider base of support. Allow both edges to be released together by putting a little more weight and pushing the outside foot forward. This allows you to create better edging through angulation."

post #5 of 17

Too much weight on the inside ski? Not if that inside ski is leading. The closer you bring the inside ski under your mass, the more pressure is added. I am hearing more about less weight on the inside ski now from PSIA, but don't agree that is a solution for my skiing. Definitely the outside ski should dominate with weight, but not too much. I believe the important focus here, which includes weight transfer and leading inside ski, is that the closer to equal is better. When you cross under, if you have more weight on the outside, and a tip lead on the inside, you have a larger recovery movement to transition into the next turn. The closer you are to equal, the less of a movement is required at transition. Try to figure out the Cause/Effect of the problem first, from the ankles up.

post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlandr View Post

Is iPod video alright? I work at the hill tomorrow, should have time to get in a few runs between lessons. Hopefully it'll take video in the dark. Maybe I'll try to find the camera. Anyway, apparently too much weight is being placed on the inside ski, as well as a drop in the outside shoulder during the turn. She suggested a more extreme angulation to try to fix it, just wondering if you have any suggestions. Also, she said it was a fairly minor issue, will this have any effect on my progression through CSIA lessons?

 

The exact comment on the assessment sheet was- "Continue to think about having a slightly wider base of support. Allow both edges to be released together by putting a little more weight and pushing the outside foot forward. This allows you to create better edging through angulation."


Well, its possible that your outside foot is not supporitng the mass and you are hanhing off the front of the boot.  That might be what was being refered to with the inside ski being ahead....she might have been thinking in reality that the outside ski was behind.  That is also caused by issues at turn intiation and common problem with preventing good skiers from becoming great skiers.

 

Will this be an on going issue?  Not if you fix it.

 

post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 

Alright, I'm going to try a few things that may help tomorrow. I'll see if I can get someone to do video too.

post #8 of 17
Thread Starter 

Change of plans. I'm going to get out with the local Masters race team, take advantage of their coaching.

post #9 of 17

Flatlandr

I'm working on the same issues, and this is what I'm thinking about now.

You need to be able to balance 100% on the outside ski.  From there, you can add as much pressure to your inside ski as you want or need.

What I see in myself and my students is we don't move on our skis as well as the best skiers.  Our thighs don't rotate freely at the hip, and we lack ankle flexion.  Our upper bodies stay aligned with the direction of our skis because of the lack of hip rotation. That puts us out of balance on the outside ski and causes us to fall onto the inside ski. 

I'm working on better hip rotation, and ankle flexion to allow me to keep the inside foot under me without losing balance on the outside ski.  Keeping the inside foot under me doesn't necessarily mean it has any pressure on it, but I know I have it right when I can put 100% of my weight on the inside ski at any point in the turn.

My cue for getting there is "flex the inside ankle."  Some of my students respond well to "push the outside foot forward" and others do better with "pull the inside foot back."  Everyone interprets direction a little differently, even though we are all trying to get to the same skill.

 

Hope this helps.

 

BK

post #10 of 17

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlandr View Post

Is iPod video alright? I work at the hill tomorrow, should have time to get in a few runs between lessons. Hopefully it'll take video in the dark. Maybe I'll try to find the camera. Anyway, apparently too much weight is being placed on the inside ski, as well as a drop in the outside shoulder during the turn. She suggested a more extreme angulation to try to fix it, just wondering if you have any suggestions. Also, she said it was a fairly minor issue, will this have any effect on my progression through CSIA lessons?

 

The exact comment on the assessment sheet was- "Continue to think about having a slightly wider base of support. Allow both edges to be released together by putting a little more weight and pushing the outside foot forward. This allows you to create better edging through angulation."


It's possible you're leaning your whole body or upper body into the turn at the top, rather than angulating at the hip.  That could result in putting a lot of weight on the inside ski at the top of the turn when you don't need or want to, and maybe keep you from balancing on both skis.  Like BK said, you should be able to put 100% of your weight on either ski at any point in the turn.  (Harder than it sounds.)

 

As mentioned, video would help with any kind of analysis.

 

I've been told (PSIA) that small amounts of tip lead on the inside ski are okay.  Excessive tip lead is usually a symptom of other problems.

post #11 of 17
Thread Starter 

I can definitely lift either ski off the snow at any point. I think it has something to do with me dropping my inside shoulder on turns, negating some of my angulation and causing inclination. I tried to ski tonight, but my new skis are being mounted, and rental boots don't cut it (I can't believe my students have to ski in those things. No wonder it takes a while to learn.) Next time I get out with my boots (this weekend) and have some time between lessons, I'm going to try to work on that. I'll let you know.

post #12 of 17

Sorry but I must respectfully disagree with this.


 

YOU do use inclination at the top of the turn but not hip angulation. which comes more in the belly to late in the turn.

 

But you can still inclinate without leaning in/having excessive weight on your inside ski.  Like Bode below. Look at frames #2 &3 He really does not start using hip angulation until the frame at the gate.

bode-bc-2006-gs-1.jpg

Read this excellent article with photos.  Notice how HIp angulation is not discussed until late in the turn

 

http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/incline-to-win.htm

 

Also this is an excellent article

 

http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/inside_ski.htm

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post

 


It's possible you're leaning your whole body or upper body into the turn at the top, rather than angulating at the hip.  That could result in putting a lot of weight on the inside ski at the top of the turn when you don't need or want to, and maybe keep you from balancing on both skis.  Like BK said, you should be able to put 100% of your weight on either ski at any point in the turn.  (Harder than it sounds.)

 

As mentioned, video would help with any kind of analysis.

 

I've been told (PSIA) that small amounts of tip lead on the inside ski are okay.  Excessive tip lead is usually a symptom of other problems.



 

post #13 of 17

Tip lead is normal to some extent and particulalry the higher your edge angles the more tip lead is created naturally.


 

Remember in my earlier post I mentioned simltaneously coming from neutral in the transition. And low and behold a post or two later the OP said this in this was in his nstructors comments.

 

It is almsot impossible to ski with your tips even in the sagittal plane if you are creating high edge angles. But what you don't want to do and this happens often when a skier is attempting to begin their turn with the little toe side of thier inside ski (which is fine)  as long as you don't let your tips diverge or push the inside ski unaturally forward of the outside ski!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post

 


It's possible you're leaning your whole body or upper body into the turn at the top, rather than angulating at the hip.  That could result in putting a lot of weight on the inside ski at the top of the turn when you don't need or want to, and maybe keep you from balancing on both skis.  Like BK said, you should be able to put 100% of your weight on either ski at any point in the turn.  (Harder than it sounds.)

 

As mentioned, video would help with any kind of analysis.

 

I've been told (PSIA) that small amounts of tip lead on the inside ski are okay.  Excessive tip lead is usually a symptom of other problems.



 


Edited by Atomicman - 1/11/12 at 6:41pm
post #14 of 17


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Sorry but I must respectfully disagree with this.


 

YOU do use inclination at the top of the turn but not hip angulation. which comes more in the belly to late in the turn.

 

But you can still inclinate without leaning in/having excessive weight on your inside ski.  Like Bode below. Look at frames #2 &3 He really does not start using hip angulation until the frame at the gate.

bode-bc-2006-gs-1.jpg



 


You CAN use inclination at the top of the turn (and the middle and bottom).  I've seen racing montages showing both inclination and angulation throughout the turn.  This is one of those 'intent dictates technique' things.

 

Many of us mere mortals have difficulty doing that without 'falling in'.  I'm also not sure whether that type of turn is considered good CSIA demonstration technique.

post #15 of 17

No doubt if you use inclination and no angulation in the middle and bottom of the turn you will lean in and hit the deck or at a minimum lose pressure on your outside ski.

 

Regardless of intent, none or not enough angulation through the middle and bottom of the turn is a technical error and would cause too much weight on the inside ski.

 

You mentioned more hip angulation at the top of the turn. I am just saying that is not where you  want hip angulatio it's where you want inclination.


 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post


 


You CAN use inclination at the top of the turn (and the middle and bottom).  I've seen racing montages showing both inclination and angulation throughout the turn.  This is one of those 'intent dictates technique' things.

 

Many of us mere mortals have difficulty doing that without 'falling in'.  I'm also not sure whether that type of turn is considered good CSIA demonstration technique.



 


Edited by Atomicman - 1/12/12 at 10:40am
post #16 of 17
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

You mentioned more hip angulation at the top of the turn. I am just saying that is not where you ideally want hip angulation.


IMO that depends on the turn shape and speed you want.  You don't always want to accelerate aggressively out of the bottom of the turn (as described in the 'use of the inside ski in modern race technique' article you linked).

 

Current PSIA demonstration technique (at least here in the East) seems to favor angulation over inclination throughout the turn, and a rounder turn shape.  In a race course you don't necessarily want that.

post #17 of 17

flatlandr

 

First, the wider base of support is contrary to lightening the inside ski.  The wider BOS is actually B.S., but do whatever puts a smile on the examiner's face.

 

Your really short, soft skis and soft boots for a guy your size might make it possible to pull the inside boot too far back.  Most of us in the more usual gear do better with pullback, tho.  I don't think there is any biomechanical advantage to pushing the inside foot forward, but most of us in stiff boots must let the foot go somewhat forward (as little as possible) in order to bend the inside leg.

 

Try these two drills--

--Lift only the tail of the inside ski off the snow a cm or two.  Angulate at the waist for balance.  Ski a full curve with the tail lifted, change to lifting the other foot then immediately turn.

--During easy turns, momentarily lift the inside ski completely off the snow.  You have to be well angulated and balanced over the outside ski to do this.  Do this several times, then make sportier turns and lift briefly that inside ski off the snow.  Once you can lift the ski off the snow at any time, increase the terrain pitch or speed to make it harder, but still possible.

 

Is that Bode in the pics?  He hasn't the best form but incredible athleticism which allowed him to win in spite of himself.  He either won or blew up.  Inclining before angulating is far beyond the ability of 99.99% of recreational skiers--too many will hold the inclination.

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