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DIN question

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 

I bought new skis this year, Prophet 98 179cm with Marker Griffon bindings and the DIN was set at 6.5.  The shop that mounted them said that they could not increase the setting without a signed waiver and that they didn't like to do that anyway.  Of course, I didn't feel comfortable messing with it so I left it.  It's been okay, but there were 2 occasions skiing when the downhill ski released at the bottom of a left hand turn.  I ski crystal mtn, wa and the snow is wet and heavy.  The run was pretty chopped up in the afternoon and at moderate speed.  I don't have perfect technique either, but intermediate to advanced I've been told.  So, my concern is that I understand the lower DIN may be a safety precaution for most, but if I had slipped and planted my boot I could be equally as hurt as I would if I had fallen somewhere and the ski didn't release as it should.  I'm wondering whether I should increase the DIN and if so how much is reasonable.  I'm 5'11" and 195lbs, I'm between a type 2 and type 3 skier, I love charging, but not every run so they classified me as a type 2 skier.  Thanks for your opinions.

post #2 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by bronch View Post

I bought new skis this year, Prophet 98 179cm with Marker Griffon bindings and the DIN was set at 6.5.  The shop that mounted them said that they could not increase the setting without a signed waiver and that they didn't like to do that anyway.  Of course, I didn't feel comfortable messing with it so I left it.  It's been okay, but there were 2 occasions skiing when the downhill ski released at the bottom of a left hand turn.  I ski crystal mtn, wa and the snow is wet and heavy.  The run was pretty chopped up in the afternoon and at moderate speed.  I don't have perfect technique either, but intermediate to advanced I've been told.  So, my concern is that I understand the lower DIN may be a safety precaution for most, but if I had slipped and planted my boot I could be equally as hurt as I would if I had fallen somewhere and the ski didn't release as it should.  I'm wondering whether I should increase the DIN and if so how much is reasonable.  I'm 5'11" and 195lbs, I'm between a type 2 and type 3 skier, I love charging, but not every run so they classified me as a type 2 skier.  Thanks for your opinions.



 

So who classified you as that type skier?  In binding certification 101, shop employees are not supposed to classify their customers.  Only customers can do that to themselves (or a guardian for a minor).

 

The reality of the situation is that you need to determine which is more important to you: release or retention.

 

Dennis

post #3 of 19

Dennis is correct. 

post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny1969 View Post



 

So who classified you as that type skier?  In binding certification 101, shop employees are not supposed to classify their customers.  Only customers can do that to themselves (or a guardian for a minor).

 

The reality of the situation is that you need to determine which is more important to you: release or retention.

 

Dennis

 

I ski aggressively a little more than I ski "moderately."   They advised Type 2 rather than type 3 since I didn't always ski aggressively. I am just curious what other people my size use in similar conditions.  I don't ride the park or jump off cliffs.  I suppose I could find out what DIN is recommended for a type 3 skier and split the difference.  Thanks for your responses.

 

post #5 of 19

The ski types are just modifiers to add .5 or maybe at most 1 to the setting.  So even if that was a factor, it would be just a small adjustment.

 

If your skis are releasing, did you notice it was from a big event where you felt your ski catch on something significantly, did you feel it starting to twist your leg or catch you before releasing?

 

If it came off without much force, most likely you may not have clicked in properly, like if you had snow under your boot.

 

If it came off during a large event, but you feel you could of had more shock,  then you might want to consider increasing the setting.  By the same token though, since it is just a small modification, don't have the expectation it's going suddenly going to make a huge amount of difference.  

 

If you felt something was greatly off, then more likely it was something along the lines of snow on your boot 

post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 

I caught the inside edge of the shovel at the base of one the heaps of snow.  So, there was a quick jolt and torque on the ski, but I didn't expect it to release.  I don't think it's a big deal, I just was just curious.  Anyway, I appreciate it.

post #7 of 19

Kind of a catch 22 situation. When you are skiing aggressively, how do you expect the type 2 moderate setting to hold you in? You are the only one that can decide if the extra hold in power is worth the knee injury risk of the type 3 setting. Personally, I except the risk of the type 3 setting. The last thing I want is a pre-release when I am hauling a##, or on something super steep. I am pleased to hear that someone is skiing in a place with real snow. It hurts in Tahoe right now. 

post #8 of 19

At 5'11'' and 195 lbs I would say it's reasonable to have a higher din setting. I am 5'9'' and 150lbs and I use a higher setting but I am young and at the point in life were I feel invincible so I value the ski not coming off a little more than it releasing in a fall. 

 

It does come down to personal preference but if your question is are you putting your self at serious risk if you increase it then my answer would be no.

post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

At 5'11'' and 195 lbs I would say it's reasonable to have a higher din setting. I am 5'9'' and 150lbs and I use a higher setting but I am young and at the point in life were I feel invincible so I value the ski not coming off a little more than it releasing in a fall. 

 

It does come down to personal preference but if your question is are you putting your self at serious risk if you increase it then my answer would be no.



I would say it is reasonable to say you - or any other folks making this kind of suggestion - without needed information do not know much about DIN settings. Knowing height and weight without knowing BSL is literally useless. And suggesting settings without knowing all the required info  (age included if you care about the charts) is doing no one a service.

 

Here are some real and realistic suggested Skier Type 2 DIN settings:

 

150 pound woman with petite feet: 7.5

 

200 pound guy with clown feet: 5.5

 

Lots of folks move around on the DIN charts based on progression. Lots of folks have good reason for deviating from the charts. It does, however, pay to know what you are doing and why. Or whether or not DIN is even the issue in play. The search function and the googles can be your friend...

post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post



I would say it is reasonable to say you - or any other folks making this kind of suggestion - without needed information do not know much about DIN settings. Knowing height and weight without knowing BSL is literally useless. And suggesting settings without knowing all the required info  (age included if you care about the charts) is doing no one a service.

 


That's true and I wasn't saying he should or shouldn't simply stating that changing your DIN isn't this big scary thing. Moving from 6.5 to 7 or even 7.5, doesn't mean that all of a sudden he's gunna start tearing and receiving spiral fractures left and right.

 

Common sense and guide lines should certainly but used but we also don't need to make it sound like the guy is gunna cripple himself should he decide to change it. I'm not gunna get into because  we have had several discussions on my opinions about these things but I really dislike the almost fear mongering mentality on here that you are gunna seriously hurt your self if you try to do anything yourself unless your an "expert".

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post


That's true and I wasn't saying he should or shouldn't simply stating that changing your DIN isn't this big scary thing. Moving from 6.5 to 7 or even 7.5, doesn't mean that all of a sudden he's gunna start tearing and receiving spiral fractures left and right.

 

Common sense and guide lines should certainly but used but we also don't need to make it sound like the guy is gunna cripple himself should he decide to change it. I'm not gunna get into because  we have had several discussions on my opinions about these things but I really dislike the almost fear mongering mentality on here that you are gunna seriously hurt your self if you try to do anything yourself unless your an "expert".



I have to agree.  Any "chart" it is really only a guide since everyone has a different body.  A professional athlete with a 313 mm boot could easily ski safely with a higher DIN setting than a guy with the same age, boot sole, height and weight with weak legs.  That is the problem with the DIN chart...it can't measure the size of a sker's bones or his leg strength or the effective age of his body.  The real ski shop issue is liability, because being sued isn't fun. So every ski shop owner tells the staff to stick with the chart (can't blame them).   But to say that the chart is optimal for everyone is nonsense.  Bronch should just go to http://www.dinsetting.com/  and play around with the calculator until he feels comfortable with a DIN setting that makes sense (even if that is the DIN setting he is now using).     

 

But is a "7" on a Marker the same as a "7" on a Look?  Is a "7" the same on all of the same manufacturer's bindings?  The short answer is that it should be, but I don't trust my well being to a metal spring being made with perfect tolerance because logic dictates there are some bad springs in the box.  So I have a decent ski shop test the bindings just in case.

 


Edited by quant2325 - 1/9/12 at 1:24am
post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 

I appreciate all of the responses, thanks.   I was merely trying to understand the implication of the DIN setting in the situations that arose.  It is a lot more complex than I thought (thanks for the link quant2325).  I did not mean to imply that I was looking for a DIN number recommendation, but more generally if others have had the same thing happen and whether they adjusted their DIN.  I also thought skier type had a bigger influence on the setting and it seems it does not if it is only a 0.5-1 change. 

 

I understand age comes into it, but an old couch potato that feeds on big mac's and skis once in awhile is different than someone who is athletic and takes care of their body.  So, I am not sure how that can be generalized.

 

I appreciate the advice for google and the search fxn, they are and have been my friend.   It also seems the subject is somewhat "taboo," so I regret having brought it up.

post #13 of 19

Hardly taboo. Just sometimes problematic. Different people have very different needs and knowledge bases and goals. Even the word "charging" is highly subjective.  Much confusion can ensue. And DIN is not always the issue. For my .02, consider this sequence.

 

1) Check your forward pressure, or have your shop double check it. incorrect forward pressure setting can be as problematic as DIN issues.

2) Think about whether or not something about your skiing is putting you into situations where your binding should release (eg, stuffing tips). If so, adjust technique.

3) Be careful about clearing snow from the binding (and boot sole). Every time you get in. Seems silly. And sometimes "impossible". But it can make a difference. 

4) If you feel you need to, get informed on the whole DIN thing and your specific bindings - and adjust them .5 or 1 at a time. Lots of people manage their own destiny in this regard. There can be good reasons for moving up or down. But it seriously pays to understand what you are doing (and again, whether or not DIN is even the issue).


Edited by spindrift - 1/9/12 at 9:38pm
post #14 of 19

I want to reinforce the "go slow" message on DIN adjustments.

My experience is that once you reach the "right" setting for you, the unnecessary releases just stop.  They don't tail off gradually, so there is no reason to go beyond that threshold.

For me there was 0.5 difference between "I'm walking right out of these things" and "no prereleases".

post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Hardly taboo. Just sometimes problematic. Different people have very different needs and knowledge bases and goals. Even the word "charging" is highly subjective.  Much confusion can ensue. And DIN is not always the issue. For my .02, consider this sequence.

 

1) Check your forward pressure, or have your shop double check it. incorrect forward pressure setting can be as problematic as DIN issues.

 


This is very true. I have had several friends ask me to adjust bindings for them and it turned out the forward pressure was wrong because they had tried to do it without looking up anything they simply saw a spot for a screwdriver and started fiddiling with it. Changing DIN is not a complicated processes but it does pay to take 10 or 15 mins to read about exactly what you should do.   

 

post #16 of 19

There's a 3+ setting on this chart http://www.dinsetting.com/

Going from 2 to 3+ changes my din from 6 to 8.5.

 

If I loose 1 lb, and ski on my race boots which are a few mm shorter, get 1 year older, I'll chart out at 6.5 at 3+.  6.5 is rediculous and would not hold me in doing the kind of skiing I like to do.  8.5 works fine.

 

The charts go in jumps.  I wish there were smooth equations you could use, but like has been said the carts are a guide, and experience is a good teacher.  Just wrecking a knee is a hard way to learn though, so I would go slow and read the Vermount safety list of reasons for you ski to release.  In a high impact release situation you may feel like the binding is releasing too easily, but if it had been set just a little higher you may have been injured nevertheless.  If you can release your boot slowly in all release directions without any problems then I would up it by 0.25 at a time.

post #17 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Hardly taboo. Just sometimes problematic. Different people have very different needs and knowledge bases and goals. Even the word "charging" is highly subjective. (Funny and true, I probably feel like I'm charging and to someone else look pretty tame)  Much confusion can ensue. And DIN is not always the issue. For my .02, consider this sequence.

 

1) Check your forward pressure, or have your shop double check it. incorrect forward pressure setting can be as problematic as DIN issues.

2) Think about whether or not something about your skiing is putting you into situations where your binding should release (eg, stuffing tips). If so, adjust technique.

3) Be careful about clearing snow from the binding (and boot sole). Every time you get in. Seems silly. And sometimes "impossible". But it can make a difference. 

4) If you feel you need to, get informed on the whole DIN thing and your specific bindings - and adjust them .5 or 1 at a time. Lots of people manage their own destiny in this regard. There can be good reasons for moving up or down. But it seriously pays to understand what you are doing (and again, whether or not DIN is even the issue).

Checking the forward pressure is great idea, I'll do that.   I am sure my level of ability is playing a role, I know I am not always in balance when I am in the heavy pushed up stuff.  I can usually make up for these situations though and pull out of it to get in a better position.  I am sure if I could get better at that, this sort of thing may not happen.  As far as snow under the boot, I'm pretty good about checking and knocking it off, but that's certainly a possibility.

 

All in all, I appreciate the help and great suggestions from everyone, thanks.  I plan on keeping things as they are for now and see how it goes.  I have searched for info on DIN, but would appreciate any suggestions from a source you trust and know to be valid. 

 

 

post #18 of 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

There's a 3+ setting on this chart http://www.dinsetting.com/

Going from 2 to 3+ changes my din from 6 to 8.5.

 

If I loose 1 lb, and ski on my race boots which are a few mm shorter, get 1 year older, I'll chart out at 6.5 at 3+.  6.5 is rediculous and would not hold me in doing the kind of skiing I like to do.  8.5 works fine.

 

The charts go in jumps.  I wish there were smooth equations you could use, but like has been said the carts are a guide, and experience is a good teacher.  Just wrecking a knee is a hard way to learn though, so I would go slow and read the Vermount safety list of reasons for you ski to release.  In a high impact release situation you may feel like the binding is releasing too easily, but if it had been set just a little higher you may have been injured nevertheless.  If you can release your boot slowly in all release directions without any problems then I would up it by 0.25 at a time.

 

/quote

 

__________

 

The DIN charts go in jumps because, as I remember, the range was developed (in conference) based on research of human bone and, I think, with consideration to connective tissue - Rick Howell could certainly give the definitive on how these release values were determined and accepted for the industry.

going here :  http://www.dinsetting.com/dinchart.htm

the real/key settings values are the torque values at the right columns. The number chart is the adaption of these torque values, by using the boot sole length.

So a settings of 6 with a boot sole length in the range to 311-330 mm, should give a torque value somewhere close to 58 nm in twisting release.

I prefer this chart which terry has put online

http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/imgs/dinbig.jpg

it shows the accepted torque range - reference and min/max values for the torque values - the 'DIN number' charts are just the interpretations of these torque values.

Things which affect whether a number setting will actually release in these torque ranges

1. Binding manufacture - I believe the only qualification currently for this is TUV. Bindings which are submitted and test by TUV are tested to (among other criteria) fall within the DIN torque range when they are set to any shown number setting. So if a Binding design is certified as TUV compliant, given its within tolerances, it should provide those release values in production.

2. Binding condition - after it is in use, how close is it to optimum condition?

3. Boot standards - does the boot meet DIN 7880 - around which the binding setting standard DIN 7881, works?

4. Actual boot condition - the current condition of your boot, relative to the accepted 'new' boot DIN 7880 std.

5. The condition of the interface of the boot sole to where it contacts the ski - AFD and heel pad.

 

Skiability and retention are more than just the DIN value. Binding design has a huge effect on retention scenarios for any binding.

Interestingly, friction in the system and boot deformities and irregularities affect retention as much as they do release. So for best retention, a boot kept clean and in best condition has the best retention.

A boot with lot of wear from hiking around the parking lot, or from the chalet/home/bus stop to the lifts will perform less well than one which only sees a snow surface.

Does an actual low DIN value on your binding mean you are 'safe'?  Maybe, maybe not...

If you have a lot of friction in the system, your leg may actually being experiencing a much higher torque than the DIN number suggests.

Keep the boot and binding clean and in the best possible condition for consistent performance and release - a cornerstone of best skiing.

 

Forward pressure is important. If a binding has a forward pressure range, setting at the lower end of the range when the toe piece DIN number is at the low end of the scale - 3 to 5; in the middle for medium settings 6 to 8 and at the upper/tighter end of the forward pressure for settings 9 or greater.

proper forward pressure assures proper function of the binding system.

 

we all make decisions on what balance of retention vs release is best for us. The DIN settings are a good starting point. DIN favors release for most situations which a binding can function under; and provides a strongly 'defensible position for the manufacturer, the certified shop and nose-picker, should things get ugly...
 

 

post #19 of 19

I too ski at crystal mtn and tuaght skiing ans racing for 30 years.  While you could rise the setting of your bindings you might be better off practicing not leaning too far forward at the bottom of your turn. It is easier to fix then leaning back and it would keep your skis from releasing at the end of those messing snow day turns.

 

Have fun,

 

PS I have adjusted hundreds of bindings and a .5 change one way or the other isn't going to do much and a slight change intechnique will do wonders.

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