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Tips for shorter radius turns?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

In general I find myself to be quite adequate at larger radius carved turns, but it seems that when ever I try to go shorter radius it either turns into skidding or merely large radius turns held for a shorter period of time. This makes speed control in narrower or crowded runs difficult.

 

Any tips or advice?

post #2 of 24

Retraction turns to speed up transitions

Higher edge angles to tighten turn radius, angulation is key.

Pressure front of ski early for even tigher radius

Anticipation rotation to tighten beginning of turn (will not make turn arc to arc)

Depending on what you are on new skis could be an option.

post #3 of 24

I like Jamt's suggestions.

 

IMO, Arc-Arc carving is probably not a good idea on narrow crowded runs.  Skiing Arc-Arc is very fast, best on race courses and wide open groomed runs.

 

Be safe.

post #4 of 24

Hey, Skidded turns can be a means of speed control. Does the ski break away because of lack of angulation? To much pressure or not enough? Fore or aft combined with lack of lateral balance? I would have to see you ski or get more details as to where the ski begins to skid or break away. Most of the time it is due to lack of pivoting. You are able to ski Arc to Arc in GS because you are using the required amount of rotation " hips following the skis a little longer at the end of your turn". Short radius requires more counter rotation and a solid pole plant to stop the rotation. Best of luck. Turn em!!!!!

post #5 of 24

Hi tooji, 

 

Lots of factors that can cause skidding during short radius. Without seeing a video of your skiing to narrow it down, here are a few common challenges: 

 

Snow conditions and ski stiffness. Stiffer ski required on hardpack. Tune comes into play too. 

Ski radius. If you're turning far tighter than the profile allows, you'll skid. 

Balance. Too far forward and you'll rotate around, skidding the tails. Too much inclination and your skis won't grip. Too far back and you'll have trouble steering.

Late edge engagement. Edges need to be engaged during transition. Skidding happens when edges engage from the fall line or below. 

Pressure control. Any popping will cause the skis to break away. Think gradual movements. "Pressing" or "driving" the skis causes the skis to break away as well - instead think of allowing the pressure to build through the turn rather than artificially creating pressure with a push. 

 

I'd say you don't need a blocking pole plant on modern equipment unless you're really falling out of balance, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong. 

post #6 of 24

some good advice and some bad advice up above.

 

go out and video and some short radius turns I am sure we can tell you why you can not do them and how to accomplish doing them

post #7 of 24

I'm coming more to the conclusion that the modern "shaped" ski is a serious culprit in the "Intermediate Rut" Being able to just roll a ski up on edge and let the side cut give us a pretty arc tends to make us lazy. I teach golf too and once guy sees better drives coming off that Fat Head XL driver, he quits working on his swing. We get as far as the sidecut will take us, developing bad habits along the way and leaning to hard on the technology to the point like the golfer, "I need new clubs". Watch Jean Claude Killy in old olympic films. He was carving arc to arc slalom turns on skis with the same side cut as a XC stick.

 

What's usually missing are 1) Effective Fore & Aft pressure progression along the edges. 2) Absence of foot/ankle steering, and 3) Experience and a "feel" for the timing and blending of the 4 basic movements Balance, Rotation, Edging and Pressure.

 

Try this for me. Grab a tennis ball or baseball, stand up and place the ball under your right Big Toe. Starrting with the ball directly under your hip, roll the ball straight forward keeping the ball under the inside edge of your foot. Feel the progression of pressure as it moves along under your instep to your heel? Now, same position but instead of rolling the ball forward, roll the ball on a smooth round arc to the left.(please observe that your instep has it's own side cut)  Can you see and feel what your foot are doing? How your hips have to rotate but your upper body has to stay still so your left foot doesn't move?

 

Grab a second ball, sit in a chair and place one under your right big toe and the other under your left pinky toe. roll both balls in a smooth arc to the left.   Get out on some gentle terrain for some nice slow turns from a wdge. Instead of just stepping out with the new outside ski. Roll it up on edge and steer it around the turn the same way you did the tennis ball using your foot/ ankle and knee/hip to steer a nice round arc while slowly moving pressure from tip to tail.

 

Once you are comfortable with that hit some steeper green slope for a little more speed For now, make your front to back weight/pressure transition very exaggerated. Feel the front and back of your boot and lean on the ski hard. Feel the difference? Feel how the tails shoot you out of the arc? Cool huh?! The timing of for to aft in conjunction with rounded steering is what takes time to develop. As you start to get a feel for the timing you can slowly back off the exaggeration. If you find yourself skidding you are holding pressure on the front of the ski too long, roll your weight rearward mor equickly as you steer.

 

Go get some arch supports for your boots. Get some that are large enough you can really feel them in your boot. You may not want to leave them in all day but the instep is very sensitive campared to toes and heels and as you steer your arcs thru the snow, it'll feel a lot like the tennis ball and you'll have a better feel for where your weight is fore & aft

 

If you want some home practice and really want to upset the wife, put your boots and skis on in the living room and roll the tennis ball around! ;))  ...trust me...

post #8 of 24

To Metaphor_ .& Tooji

 

No need to prove you right or wrong on the pole plant in Short Radius Mr. Metaphor_. My view is the pole plant to be used as a tool not only to help slow down upper body rotation at the end of the turn but also to aid in rhythm and timing. I also believe that by bending your ankles, knees and hips progressively and focus on the pole plant a little more down the hill will help to create more effective angulation. This is providing your other plans of balance are close to the target. Pole Plant not a necessity but sure helps. Bend the lower joints laterally and vertically to plant and absorb the poles impact with the wrist. No wild arm crazy ass stabbing movements. Try to create some symmetry in your movements. You may find things will flow smoothly. Bending the body to Pole Plant at the right time helps...  Cheers.  

post #9 of 24

Short radius turns are skidded turns. I have skied with some great instructors and examiners, and there is no way to do it without skidding. Focus on facing your upper body downhill, and turning in and out of counter (steer your skis from your waste down, keeping your upper body facing down). Let the skis skid, but in control, depending on how much edge you let grip.

 

A successful exercise I use is start with a few fan turns - do one turn at a time, let the tails slide out, more sliding with each turn, alternate left to right, face downhill at about a 45 degree angle. Then do a traverse across the hill with a slight down angle, roll into your uphill edges until you ski higher than your tracks, one turn at a time, Left then Right. Successively point a little more down hill to about a 45 degree angle, facing downhill. Now, try those fan turns again, J- shaped turns, one side at a time, this time with less slide and more edge grip with each successive turn. Next, try short radius turns, keeping your upper body facing downhill. Let them skid, but a controlled skid, throughout the duration of the turn. Be sure to finish the turns, at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock, while facing 12 o'clock downhill.

post #10 of 24

You're probably standing up and pushing off your skis... more than likely when they are flat or flattening. That shows a lack of foot tipping or steering your skis. If you could do either effectively you wouldn't be having your problems. I'm a tipping fan. Jamt gave some good technical advice and BW gave some good homework.

 

Not sure what is going on right above me here...

post #11 of 24

there are short turns that do not rely on skidding.  In fact,  when I work on my short swing turns, skidding is failing to me.  I do like to see those tips flex and feel those tails follow.

 

 

To each their own.

 

Cheers

post #12 of 24

How short is short turn? I.e. width from apex to apex. It seems people have different ideas when it comes to what is and what is not so it can get confusing.

post #13 of 24

1. Get short radius skis.

2. Take a lesson (even if you're an advanced skier).

post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirustler View Post

1. Get short radius skis.

2. Take a lesson (even if you're an advanced skier).



why do you need short radius skis for short radius turns...

post #15 of 24

And...how short of ski and...how short of a turn?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post





why do you need short radius skis for short radius turns...



 

 

post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



why do you need short radius skis for short radius turns...



Yesterday I skied with a fine skier on steep hardback (what else).  He was demoing skis all day.  When he got on some stiff Atomic GS skis (18m radius I believe) he was killing it but said he felt locked into really long turns.  Maybe too locked in.  And he looked locked in, but in a good way, and at very high speed.   I'm sure he could have compromised on his sweet looking carves to shorten his turning radius, but I guess that wasn't in his mindset (or skill set).  He is a former racer which could have played a role.  If you want to learn how to carve short turns, why not use a short (or medium) radius ski?  I know there's more to skiing than carving, but why not use the ski that wants to carve the turn you want to make most of the time?  And I did recommend a lesson, by the way.

post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirustler View Post



Yesterday I skied with a fine skier on steep hardback (what else).  He was demoing skis all day.  When he got on some stiff Atomic GS skis (18m radius I believe) he was killing it but said he felt locked into really long turns.  Maybe too locked in.  And he looked locked in, but in a good way, and at very high speed.   I'm sure he could have compromised on his sweet looking carves to shorten his turning radius, but I guess that wasn't in his mindset (or skill set).  He is a former racer which could have played a role.  If you want to learn how to carve short turns, why not use a short (or medium) radius ski?  I know there's more to skiing than carving, but why not use the ski that wants to carve the turn you want to make most of the time?  And I did recommend a lesson, by the way.



on steep terrain most L8/9 would have difficulty carving shorts turns on a SL ski.

 

SL shaped skis are actually very hard to do brushed or slightly skidded nearly carved turns on. A mid fat with a medium radius is easier to control...

 

 

post #18 of 24

Tooji

Examine your movements.  Are there any that just take a lot of time?  Some skiers with a big arm swing for their pole plant can not make a short turn in that time, and they can't turn without that arm swing.  Only a pole tap or touch is needed, and that can take only a twitch of the wrist with the arms remaining out in a natural balancing position.  Do not angle the poles behind you--takes time to get them in front for the pole touch.

 

At the end of each turn, when your skis are light on the snow, very strongly pull both feet back behind you.  You'll engage the tips so they can pull you around the turn.  You'll feel like your skis and feet are swinging under you like a pendulum making kind'a a figure-8 movement.

 

You need to get on your new inside edges before your skis reach the fall line and mainly heavy on the front half of the new outside ski.  This means that you need to feel like you're out ahead of your skis.  Pull those skis behind you, lead your motion downhill with your head, engage the new inside edges, and swing the skis around in the tight curve.  It won't work if you're back on your heels, or inclining back toward the hill especially if you're heavy on the uphill ski, or rotating your shoulders around in the direction of the hill...nothing works well if you do any of these faults.

 

As mentioned above, retraction turns are quicker than extension turns.  Changing your timing for this is a big deal, but it works.  (The speed difference was documented in an "International Congress on Science and Skiing" paper a few years ago.)

 

 

post #19 of 24

Don't you mean most L7 and L8's, and...couldn't it be the SL tune? I don't find much difference with brushing or skidding with a

60mm wide ski vs a 74 to 88+mm ski.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



on steep terrain most L8/9 would have difficulty carving shorts turns on a SL ski.

 

SL shaped skis are actually very hard to do brushed or slightly skidded nearly carved turns on. A mid fat with a medium radius is easier to control...

 

 



 

post #20 of 24

     Find yourself a groomer run that has some pitch to it and force yourself to react by doing the following.  As your heading down the hill at moderate speed find chunks of snow to make turns around as if you are running gates.  Once you get around one look downhill and find another.  No need to be going warp speed.  Figure out what works for your skiing style and get a groove going. 

     I find that the more you "try" and make it happen the harder it will be.  Just react, you know how to ski.  Then once you build some confidence i.e. I can link together a few nice turns then take a look at your posture, your hands, and how your feet feel throughout the turn.  It's all about recongnizing what works for you. 

     Equipment does help.  If your a pro, you can ski on ancient crap and still look great.  But in general, finding the right boot/insole/ski combo can help the average joe ski much better.  If you can find someone to ski with you can speak your language and can recognize good v.s. bad form, that will help you also.  Get some work in every time you ski and you will get it!

post #21 of 24


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

Hey, Skidded turns can be a means of speed control.

 

If you're just trying to slow down, skid away.  Use less edge, smear the turn.  It'll slow you down without needing to change your line.  In flatter terrain wedge turns work too.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtguide1 View Post

I'm coming more to the conclusion that the modern "shaped" ski is a serious culprit in the "Intermediate Rut" Being able to just roll a ski up on edge and let the side cut give us a pretty arc tends to make us lazy. ...Watch Jean Claude Killy in old olympic films. He was carving arc to arc slalom turns on skis with the same side cut as a XC stick.

 

Yes and no.  There's no way you can 'carve' short-radius turns at low speeds on a race ski with a 25m+ radius, and past a certain minimum radius it's impossible at any speed.  The straighter the ski, the harder it is to bend it into a really short radius turn.

 

It's certainly much easier to ride the natural sidecut of a ski than to bend it to a much tighter radius and still keep it edging cleanly.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geofinnis View Post

Short radius turns are skidded turns. I have skied with some great instructors and examiners, and there is no way to do it without skidding.

 

Disagree, depending on how 'short' you're talking.  You can easily bend most modern skis to half their 'natural' radius or less and carve clean turns at fairly low speeds.  If you're talking something like a 2m turn radius, then yes, you will have to skid (almost like a pivot slip).  Carving at low speeds is surprisingly difficult -- I certainly don't do it very well.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
why do you need short radius skis for short radius turns...

 

It sure helps!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiredknees View Post

 

At the end of each turn, when your skis are light on the snow, very strongly pull both feet back behind you.  You'll engage the tips so they can pull you around the turn.  You'll feel like your skis and feet are swinging under you like a pendulum making kind'a a figure-8 movement.

 

You need to get on your new inside edges before your skis reach the fall line and mainly heavy on the front half of the new outside ski.  This means that you need to feel like you're out ahead of your skis.

 


The 'pull your feet back' advice doesn't always work well, but the highlighted portion there is key.  If you're not getting on the new inside edges WAY before the fall line, you will not be able to hold a clean carve at low speeds and/or a short turn radius.  If you rush the first third of the turn and don't get any speed control there, you'll almost always wash out and skid the second half.

post #22 of 24


It can work out to attack the slope. Beware, more aggression requires more skill to make it stick.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post


 

 

If you're just trying to slow down, skid away.  Use less edge, smear the turn.  It'll slow you down without needing to change your line.  In flatter terrain wedge turns work too.

 

Yes and no.  There's no way you can 'carve' short-radius turns at low speeds on a race ski with a 25m+ radius, and past a certain minimum radius it's impossible at any speed.  The straighter the ski, the harder it is to bend it into a really short radius turn.

 

It's certainly much easier to ride the natural sidecut of a ski than to bend it to a much tighter radius and still keep it edging cleanly.

 

 

Disagree, depending on how 'short' you're talking.  You can easily bend most modern skis to half their 'natural' radius or less and carve clean turns at fairly low speeds.  If you're talking something like a 2m turn radius, then yes, you will have to skid (almost like a pivot slip).  Carving at low speeds is surprisingly difficult -- I certainly don't do it very well.

 

 

It sure helps!

 


The 'pull your feet back' advice doesn't always work well, but the highlighted portion there is key.  If you're not getting on the new inside edges WAY before the fall line, you will not be able to hold a clean carve at low speeds and/or a short turn radius.  If you rush the first third of the turn and don't get any speed control there, you'll almost always wash out and skid the second half.



 

post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

To Metaphor_ .& Tooji

 

No need to prove you right or wrong on the pole plant in Short Radius Mr. Metaphor_. My view is the pole plant to be used as a tool not only to help slow down upper body rotation at the end of the turn but also to aid in rhythm and timing. I also believe that by bending your ankles, knees and hips progressively and focus on the pole plant a little more down the hill will help to create more effective angulation. This is providing your other plans of balance are close to the target. Pole Plant not a necessity but sure helps. Bend the lower joints laterally and vertically to plant and absorb the poles impact with the wrist. No wild arm crazy ass stabbing movements. Try to create some symmetry in your movements. You may find things will flow smoothly. Bending the body to Pole Plant at the right time helps...  Cheers.  

 

Pole plant to help slow down upper body rotation?  Where is the upper body rotation coming from?rolleyes.gif

 

In addition to your list of pole plant benefits I would add blocking to aid anticipation release, and to aid balance during edge change by creating a larger base of support (Joubert's "polygon of sustenation")
 

 

post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

Pole plant to help slow down upper body rotation?  Where is the upper body rotation coming from?rolleyes.gif

 

In addition to your list of pole plant benefits I would add blocking to aid anticipation release, and to aid balance during edge change by creating a larger base of support (Joubert's "polygon of sustenation")
 

 


I don't think Tek Head meant upper body rotation in the same sense that you are thinking of it. I believe he describing the angular momentum that the upper body will continue to have from the previous turn when the legs are about to change direction into the new turn.... in other words a 'blocking pole plant'.

 

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