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Level 9 ski progression

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

Was looking for some examples of a 4 or 5 step level 9 ski progression, or lesson plan.

post #2 of 16

10,000 hours of deliberate practice, under the excellent guidance of a great teacher

post #3 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

10,000 hours of deliberate practice, under the excellent guidance of a great teacher


Let's be realistic here. If you spend 40 days a season, 5 hours a day, under the excellent guidance of a great teacher, it will take you 50 years to accumulate 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. Few people, very few, ski 10,000 hours in a lifetime.

post #4 of 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post


Let's be realistic here. If you spend 40 days a season, 5 hours a day, under the excellent guidance of a great teacher, it will take you 50 years to accumulate 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. Few people, very few, ski 10,000 hours in a lifetime.


10k hours is a reference to the book Outliers.  The theory is that no matter what subject you're talking about, that's about what it takes to become an expert at something.  The follow up to your last statement would be that few people, very few, become a legit level 9.  Those that do, most of them probably ski more than 40 days a year and therefore do it in less than 50 years.

 

post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

10,000 hours of deliberate practice, under the excellent guidance of a great teacher



Not really sure what you eve mean. 

 

Just an instructor here looking for some thoughts on level 9 progressions to steal. Have been in clinics this past week and sometimes I think we forget how many good ideas our peers come up with. I guess share and share alike is how I should have started. 

 

Last week I skied with a teenage client I have had for quite a few years. We ski mostly steeps and bumps. We talked mostly about getting his upper body more silent and to stop swinging his hands. So I started on groomers working on shortening the inside leg and reaching out with his uphill hand. We also explored the idea of less up and down movement and more side to side. This helped in getting his upped body a little quieter.

 

We then moved to some easy bumps and talked about different lines, specifically banking on the sides of the mogul initiating on the ridge line and never dropping into the trough. I broke this into several parts. Talking about low edge angle and the benefits of a flat ski with rotary movements as well as "smearing" your turn through moguls. We took those ideas into some very steep terrain and were successful. 

 

Back to easy mogul. With his upper body quiet down a little much less swinging of arms and a few other little things quieted. We talked about looking back toward the finish of the next turn at the initiation of the new. Opening the body up and planting down the hill so creating the opening for the new turn. Again we took this on steeps where we worked on it quite a bit.

 

On his last day we changed it up entirely as he was really interested in freestyle mogul turns. The fundamental skills helped him a great deal working on his zipper line skiing even though some here might find that strange.

post #6 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post


Let's be realistic here. If you spend 40 days a season, 5 hours a day, under the excellent guidance of a great teacher, it will take you 50 years to accumulate 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. Few people, very few, ski 10,000 hours in a lifetime.


Quote

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

10,000 hours of deliberate practice, under the excellent guidance of a great teacher


You don't have to be on snow to practice. High level athletes spend hours and hours doing dry land training and drills in the gym. That also counts as practice. Give your students something they can work on at home or in the gym to increase their learning.

 

post #7 of 16

Iceage,

 

It sounds like you are on the right track.  For bump skiing, any activity (done correctly) which promotes upper/lower body separation with leg rotation is key.  Combining this with low edge drills is even better such as pivot slips.  Don't be afraid of promoting drills which use flexing and extending of ankle, knee, hip socket and pelvis/spine bending in equal amounts.  This is one of the keys of successful skiing in the bumps.This is quite difficult for many people to get without loosing a balanced position over the skis. I promote bending of these joints (correctly) in place of merely moving up and down.

 

Hope this helps.

 

RW

post #8 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

Iceage,

 

It sounds like you are on the right track.  For bump skiing, any activity (done correctly) which promotes upper/lower body separation with leg rotation is key.  Combining this with low edge drills is even better such as pivot slips.  Don't be afraid of promoting drills which use flexing and extending of ankle, knee, hip socket and pelvis/spine bending in equal amounts.  This is one of the keys of successful skiing in the bumps.This is quite difficult for many people to get without loosing a balanced position over the skis. I promote bending of these joints (correctly) in place of merely moving up and down.

 

Hope this helps.

 

RW

Well not really.

 

I was talking about teaching high level bump skiing. What you have written here is absolutely important  but probably should have been covered before they got to you. I am afraid of "drills" that bring the body out of balance or don't seem to work toward anything that is needed. I feel a lot of instructors have a ridiculous amount of drills but in the end they might not truly understand what they are trying to accomplish. I was hoping, ages ago when I posted this, that some instructor gods would show up and post something truly interesting. 

 

If there is a forum somewhere where people are having  a back and forth constructive conversation on teaching bumps someone please show me the way. I love teaching bumps, my favorite thing ever probably and though I am confident in my ideas it is always constructive and productive to share and expand. 

post #9 of 16
Quote:

Originally Posted by iceage View Post

 

I was hoping, ages ago when I posted this, that some instructor gods would show up and post something truly interesting. 

 

No insturctor god is going to offer a 4 or 5 step canned lesson for a Level 9....because anyone who thinks you can just do that, is well....clueless.

 

About as close as you can get is:

 

  1. Find out what the students wants to learn
  2. Assess the student to see what he needs to learn
  3. Present to the student what he needs to learn, in a way that aligns with what he wants to learn

 

 

At the end of the day thou, you teach a L9 lesson the way you approach a L1 lesson.  Identity the deficient skill, work on developing it.  Dont rush into solutions until you are sure you are identifed the correct deficient skill.  For L1, a good pro can determine that in 2 turns maybe 3 turns....for L9, it make take 2 or 3 runs.  But its worth taking that time.  Another tip, at Level 9, if you are working on more then 1 thing, even over several weeks....then you are not working on the right thing, and are just chasing symptoms rather then a core problem. 

post #10 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

No insturctor god is going to offer a 4 or 5 step canned lesson for a Level 9....because anyone who thinks you can just do that, is well....clueless.

 

About as close as you can get is:

 

  1. Find out what the students wants to learn
  2. Assess the student to see what he needs to learn
  3. Present to the student what he needs to learn, in a way that aligns with what he wants to learn

 

 

At the end of the day thou, you teach a L9 lesson the way you approach a L1 lesson.  Identity the deficient skill, work on developing it.  Dont rush into solutions until you are sure you are identifed the correct deficient skill.  For L1, a good pro can determine that in 2 turns maybe 3 turns....for L9, it make take 2 or 3 runs.  But its worth taking that time.  Another tip, at Level 9, if you are working on more then 1 thing, even over several weeks....then you are not working on the right thing, and are just chasing symptoms rather then a core problem. 

You really believe that people don't have "canned" progressions that they tailor around specific students? This would be counter to everything I think people know about teaching. 

I also am not sure but do not believe you read my other posts in this thread. My "canned progressions" are nothing of the sort. 

post #11 of 16

Iceage,

 

Unfourtunate if you think we're all out there teaching canned progressions and not listening to the students wants/needs. In all honesty, teaching a canned progression and making it stick is way harder then talking to your student, finding out what their goals are and teaching to that.

 

In terms of drill. I think you are right that there are too many people just out coaching tons of drills without know what they or why they are teaching them. I call it the post=clinic disorder. They go get some great training from a knowledgable coach and then that is the way to coach skiing from there on out or at least till their next great clinic. I bet I spend a third of every one of my clinics explaining how what I'm saying is very similar to what their past clinician said just in a different way.

 

I, personally, have a handful of tasks I can then tailor to fit the students needs. I have those tasks down so they are easy to customize. If that is not getting the results I want, then I hit my 'B' list.

 

It is my thought that when approaching those upper levels (8-9) we start teaching more tactics first and then technique to make the tactics more effective so from what I read above it does sound like your on the right track. What I mean is, how do you know how to coach a student in the bumps if you've never seen them ski in the bumps. Here is how I can imagine a lesson going:

 

1) Welcome. You want to get better at skiing variable terrain, primarily in the bumps? Great. Have you skied here before? What are some of your favorite trails? Okay, I have an idea of where to head to warm-up, lets get on the chair.

 

2) The trail we're going to head to, to get into the bumps, is about a third of the way down the hill, but instead of just bombing down there lets get ourselves warmed-up a bit. Here are some of my favorite tasks to do on my first run in the morning.

 

3) Now that we've reached were we really want to skillets get after it, but easy at first. I'm gonna ski down a few turns and then pull of to the side. Let me get ahead a bit then you go and ski past me to that point. Do you see that spot? Great. Remember, don't hammer it just yet.

 

4) Hey nice skiing! What were you thinking about while you skied down? Lets see if we can ski from the tops to the tops a bit. There's softer snow on top of the moguls today and being on top makes it easier for us to pivot our skis, kinda like we did when we were warming up, instead of driving through the troughs. Follow right behind me, stay in my line and concentrate on my boots, but if things go haywire abandon the drill for safety. Lets go.

 

I think you can see what I'm getting at. The concept might be "canned", but the application can be completely customized. And some one of my favorite tasks to build up to in bump skiing; dolphin turns. Can you air of the backside of one bump, land on the fronside of another and complete your turn out to control the speed. Kids love it.

 

Nate

post #12 of 16

Here's a progression that Shawn Smith had our group do at a PSIA-E Master's Academy a few years ago (all clinic participants were level 3 certs).

Shuffle turns

1) Rapidly shuffle your feet continuously throughout a series of turns. Note where you had difficulty shuffling (most said "in the fall line").

2) Shuffle the top half of each turn, but carve the finish.

3) Shuffle the bottom half of each turn but carve the start.

4) Shuffle only just prior to edge change.

5) Just ski.

 

The goal of this progression was to fine tune centered balance prior to edge change. All members of the group were skiing at a high level prior to the progression. All were skiing at a higher level after. The difference was extremely subtle. The feedback given during the drill was more effective at initiating change than the drill itself. The drills at level 9 aren't necessarily different if you look at them at a high level. But the duration, intensity and timing; the feedback, the goals and the tweaking of steps can range from subtly to significantly different.

 

As Dude has noted, there is a big difference between an example of a progression that is useful in a specific circumstance and a canned progression that is used at a specific level regardless of circumstance. What you teach at level 9 isn't different so much as how you teach it. But the mechanics part of the "how" of teaching should not change (assessing needs, presenting information, demonstration, practice, feedback, teaching to learning styles, etc.).

 

(for IceAge) If you want to build your bag of tricks for teaching L9 lessons I recommend a two track approach. Do off mountain week long clinics (e.g. PSIA National Academy) and observe what is taught to your peers. In clinics where you are the strongest skier, focus more on how the clinic is taught vs what is taught in the clinic and ask more "why" and "how should this drill be modified when ..." questions.

post #13 of 16

So I'm determined to come up with something that integrates the PSIA testing 'jump turns' into a progression for a short turn clinic or lesson for high level skiers. Thinking pivot slips with shorter duration into jump turns, then into 'normal' progressively edged short turns... upper/lower body separation, strong rotary movement, obvious changes in DIRT, etc... Could be repeated with a line drawn with a pole down the fall line to address timing and pole plant issues if need be... I'd just like to make a killer short turn session to address a general west of the Mississippi lack of love and attention to shorter turns. They certainly have their place, particularly in technical steep terrain in difficult conditions. Rambling on.....   anyone have anything like this in their bag of tricks? 

post #14 of 16

That is a valid approach.

 

I'm fond of the hop to shape drill (hop off old edges, change edges and (or not) direction in mid air and then carve the turn finish. There are a billion ways to start from this concept and go anywhere.

 

The problem with a killer short turn session is that most students need to get multiple fundamental issues resolved in longer turns before they can apply them to shorter turns. Trying to rush things just induces cheating.

post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

That is a valid approach.

 

I'm fond of the hop to shape drill (hop off old edges, change edges and (or not) direction in mid air and then carve the turn finish. There are a billion ways to start from this concept and go anywhere.

 

The problem with a killer short turn session is that most students need to get multiple fundamental issues resolved in longer turns before they can apply them to shorter turns. Trying to rush things just induces cheating.

 

Yep... I agree, though I've had really great results using shorter turns as a vehicle for working on pole plants and timing. If there's a beauty to jump turns, it's that it's pretty near impossible to cheat. The interest in the jump turn is more from complaints I've heard about requiring them for level III testing, that they are disconnected from modern technique, too athletic, not used in real life skiing, etc.... I can do them in my sleep, and I if I were to toot my own horn, probably better than many members of the regional tech team (of course that's about the only thing I can do as well smile.gif ). Even then, there's been times where I agree with this relatively negative assessment, but I figure it's more of a perception problem, so I'm going to be on a mini quest to 'make them useful'. I'll see what I can come up with and test out on some of my local brether and sisteren. 

post #16 of 16
Maybe think about some linked hockey stops with a blocking pole plant to start out with. The edge set in the hop turn is essential. Any slip in the extension make it difficult to get off the snow quickly and the blocking plant helps to anchor the set up. For the auditory based learners have them try to land with no noise. Just a thought,
Nate
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