New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Can you still flat file a ski? - Page 2

post #31 of 51

icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif


 

Also belt sanders and even less sophisticated old school ski specific baelt sanders did a lousy uneven job, unless the operator was a truly experienced artist and even then it is sketchy.

 

Any inconsistency in applied pressure showed up as wves in the P-tex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarks View Post


The problem with a belt sander is that it would conform to the existing base shape. You could remove base material with a metal scraper if the ski was base high or pull out the Field Marshal Rommel File (panzer) if the skis are railed (edge high). You could then do what you suggest lightly and get results.

 

For about $20.00 you should be able to have a shop stone grind your skis flat. Why waste the time and half ass it?
 



 



 

post #32 of 51


C-Dart....................................... Really?????
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


Do they have bulk discounts for a dozen pairs of skis?  How about transportation costs in time spent driving to the shop and back?

 

Five bucks:

00002128.jpg

Ten bucks:

bastardfile14inches.jpg

 

Will last several seasons of weekly tuning.  It really only takes about 10 minutes to do it if you don't let them get too base high.  For me, the cost of time lost taking the skis to the shop is in the hundreds of dollars whereas I could whip them back in to shape in ten minutes after 10-20 days of hard skiing on them.  I do agree that the sides need a lot more attention than the bases do though.  I do the sides lightly after every day or two.  The bases get flattened and re-beveled (race and carving skis only) once or twice a year i.e. after about 5-10 days.  Let them go fifty days, and maybe I'll see the value of a base grind.  I used to go that route when I logged 100 + day seasons.  As for a dozen days?? no need for base grinds ever..

 



 

post #33 of 51

^^^^^^  What's wrong with that?  I flat file and then bevel my 4 yo Fischer RCs and they still hold great on the crap boiler plate ice we have had this year.  Never had them stone ground.  Am I doing it wrong?

post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


Do they have bulk discounts for a dozen pairs of skis?  How about transportation costs in time spent driving to the shop and back?

 

Five bucks:

00002128.jpg

Ten bucks:

bastardfile14inches.jpg

 

Will last several seasons of weekly tuning.  It really only takes about 10 minutes to do it if you don't let them get too base high.  For me, the cost of time lost taking the skis to the shop is in the hundreds of dollars whereas I could whip them back in to shape in ten minutes after 10-20 days of hard skiing on them.  I do agree that the sides need a lot more attention than the bases do though.  I do the sides lightly after every day or two.  The bases get flattened and re-beveled (race and carving skis only) once or twice a year i.e. after about 5-10 days.  Let them go fifty days, and maybe I'll see the value of a base grind.  I used to go that route when I logged 100 + day seasons.  As for a dozen days?? no need for base grinds ever..

 



Now there are some familiar looking tools !   Had my skis stone ground many years ago at Granite chief at Squaw, they almost ruined my skis.  Took me hours to retune them.  Last time I ever trusted someone else to tune my babies.

 

post #35 of 51


You guys ever demo a pair of new skis? Ever wonder why they ski so well......

Chances are they've been tuned up right out of the wrapper by the Sales Rep

 

Check one of these bad boys out! It's a DMT diamond stone and it removes less material than a file. You can use it to polish your edges after you file and after you ski to remove burrs.

large-dmtblue.jpg

 

Pete, I've gone to restaurants and had bad meals. Doesn't mean I'm going to cook everynight.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post



Now there are some familiar looking tools !   Had my skis stone ground many years ago at Granite chief at Squaw, they almost ruined my skis.  Took me hours to retune them.  Last time I ever trusted someone else to tune my babies.

 



 

post #36 of 51

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarks View Post

You guys ever demo a pair of new skis? Ever wonder why they ski so well......

Chances are they've been tuned up right out of the wrapper by the Sales Rep


Yep and none were not even close to faster than the aforementioned skis sanded by hand.

 

This does not mean I can replicate it on any ski....and it was labor intensive and time consuming as mentioned. I can easily with a planer and stones in less time than it would take to get them to and from a shop. For others a shop grind and tune is clearly the best options. For others, not so much.

 

As a reality check:

There are clearly those who should never attempt anything on their skis with any tools and have a good shop take care of their gear. There are plenty of horror stories of incompetence at shops that have destroyed skis. There are also those with no shops in their area and those with budgetary concerns. There are tons of competent DIYers that can change their own oil and take care of their boards just fine. There are also plenty of highly skilled people, that are clearly not idiots with broad tool and material manipulation experience, that are not seasonal shop techs, that understand how to make a plastic and metal board flat and a metal edge sharp....and have tossed their short lived DMTs into the trash.

 

Whether a ski is 'full-assed', dead flat due to perfect machining does not necessarily mean it glides any better or provides more enjoyment to an owner than an imperfect, 'half-assed' base and edges maintained with skilled hands. There are a lot of ways to achieve success and satisfaction. Being directly in control and involved in the process is a major contributing factor to the satisfaction. It can be more convenient/efficient and save time and money.

 

Regardless how, I think that people should definitely take better care of their gear to get the most life and performance out of their gear and stuff in general.

 

 


Edited by Alpinord - 1/4/12 at 8:25am
post #37 of 51
Nice post, Alpinord!

Errrr, so the answer to the OP is: Yes.
post #38 of 51


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post


Nice post, Alpinord!
Errrr, so the answer to the OP is: Yes.


 

+1



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

 

 

 

Whether a ski is 'full-assed', dead flat due to perfect machining does not necessarily mean it glides any better or provides more enjoyment to an owner than an imperfect, 'half-assed' base and edges maintained with skilled hands. There are a lot of ways to achieve success and satisfaction. Being directly in control and involved in the process is a major contributing factor to the satisfaction. It can be more convenient/efficient and save time and money.

 

Regardless how, I think that people should definitely take better care of their gear to get the most life and performance out of their gear and stuff in general.

 

 


Like some are so quick to point outrolleyes.gif.. I don't follow every manufacturer's recommended protocol.  I've been skiing and tuning skis over several decades.  Regardless of how the gear has changed I still know what I prefer in terms of how a ski skis and how to tune it inorder to get those desired results.  The satisfaction I get from doing myself and my way greatly enhances my overall ski life experiences.  It also saves considerable personal time to not have to be running back and forth to the ski shop to give them hard earned money.  I can tune myself in half the time it takes to drive to Raleigh and back once,much less twice!  Fair warning to anyone that buys a pair of skis I used and abused, your edge angle might now be 0/0 instead of the factory 1/3spit.gif.  But, I really don't sell or give away anything except kids gear they've outgrown.

 

Regardless, it is always good to see that others also enjoy the pleasure of managing their own ski maintenance with some experimentation and trying different things here and there. beercheer.gif

 

Sidenote on the belt sanders.  In my early 20s I worked in a custom furniture studio as a cabinet maker.  I probably spend 10 hours a week slinging a belt sander around.  I didn't bat an eye about CAREFULLY using it to level my bases.  It only took a few seconds.  Anything beyond that would certainly TOTAL a ski.  I advise extreme caution attempting that.  But, it is do-able if you're really good. 

 

post #39 of 51

Have you ever measured your base bevel.  . Have you skied on a ski with a measured known .5 .75 or 1 degree to compare to how your skis performs?


Do you like how your skis perform?

If so, then rock on. icon14.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by white wizzard View Post

^^^^^^  What's wrong with that?  I flat file and then bevel my 4 yo Fischer RCs and they still hold great on the crap boiler plate ice we have had this year.  Never had them stone ground.  Am I doing it wrong?



 


Edited by Atomicman - 1/4/12 at 10:21am
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Have you ever measured your base bevel.  . Have you skied on a ski with a measured known .5 .75 or 1 degree to compare to how your skis performs?


Do you like how your skis perform?

If so, the rock on. icon14.gif



 


Yes, as a matter of fact I have.  On injected rock hard the difference is BARELY noticeable.  On fresh snow the difference is non existent.  In bumps it doesn't matter as much as the amount of detune of the tips and tails does. On average loose granular or cord it is whatever you want to believe it is.  The point is that there is a lot to be gained and a lot of pleasure derived from tuning your own skis, trying all the alternatives, then doing it the way you like most.  No two people are EVER going to agree 100% on the best tune for a single pair of skis for a single skier on a single course on at the same time on the same day/conditions, especially not two different pro race techs.

 

post #41 of 51

Now you are answering questions for other people. Now that is really socialism!wink.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


Yes, as a matter of fact I have.  On injected rock hard the difference is BARELY noticeable.  On fresh snow the difference is non existent.  In bumps it doesn't matter as much as the amount of detune of the tips and tails does. On average loose granular or cord it is whatever you want to believe it is.  The point is that there is a lot to be gained and a lot of pleasure derived from tuning your own skis, trying all the alternatives, then doing it the way you like most.  No two people are EVER going to agree 100% on the best tune for a single pair of skis for a single skier on a single course on at the same time on the same day/conditions, especially not two different pro race techs.

 



 

post #42 of 51

IMHO, DMT's are inferior stones. I retired all of mine years ago (to the round file, no pun intended) and have used almost exclusively Moonflex diamonds since (and a couple of SVSTMaplus and swix, thrown in for variety)


 

As far as new skis go, My latest pair of Atomics were tuned to a gnat's ass out the wrapper from the factory. (I unwrapped them and didn't not touch the edges)  They skied perfectly, no amazingly well! And actually ever pair of Atomic's we've ever owned have been just like that! And we have owned a ton and still have a good 15 pair!

 

On the other hand, every pair of Head's I have purchased needed total retuning from day 1!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarks View Post


You guys ever demo a pair of new skis? Ever wonder why they ski so well......

Chances are they've been tuned up right out of the wrapper by the Sales Rep

 

Check one of these bad boys out! It's a DMT diamond stone and it removes less material than a file. You can use it to polish your edges after you file and after you ski to remove burrs.

large-dmtblue.jpg

 

Pete, I've gone to restaurants and had bad meals. Doesn't mean I'm going to cook everynight.


 



 



 

post #43 of 51

I have used a mill file to tune my old skis for many years and it definetly improves them once they are dulled. I recently went to a seminar and did some reading and found out that using a file is not the best method, but it can be effective if the person using it is skilled.

 

My biggest issue through my personel experience is that the file has a very difficult time cutting base material. I have no trouble cutting the metal edges, but it doesn't do much on the bases. My skies are very base high now and in the past to deal with this I had them ground flat about once a year by a shop. The file worked well on the side edges, and even better when I bought a file holder tool. I have a 14"  mill bastard file and an even rougher file called a magic cut. I have never tried a panzer file, which looks like what you need to take off base material. The mill file loads up immediatley with base material it seems to me and its hard to get enough pressure over a 4" wide base, as opposed to a 1/8" wide edge. I also am at fault for the high bases, as I would lean my ski up againt a wall and run the file down the base. This would allow the ski to flex, and the file would touch the base edges due to the curve of the ski, and remove edge material. It wasn't removing any base material though, and hence the base high condition would develop over time. I now realize this is a no no.

 

After going to the seminar, I am going to buy a Ski Visions base flattening tool that uses a carbide bit or ceramic insert to cut the ptex. I watched someone use it and it does a good job.

 

The other issue with files is they take a lot of material off, which is OK as long as you are skilled and don't over do it. What I never realized is that after filing, you need to polish the edges because the file leaves a rough cut. You need a ceramic stone or diamond stone (file) of medium or fine grit (aroung 220-400 grit I think) to smooth the edge after using the file. It also takes off or at least reduces the edge burr.

 

Then there is the whole issue of base and side bevel. I have always done 0/0 but I am going to start doing a 1/3 deg. and see how that feels on the snow. With more precise file holders, I feel confident I can get good results.

 

I still may take it to a shop once a year, but I agree that touching them up every couple of ski days is the way to go.

 

 

post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Now you are answering questions for other people. Now that is really socialism!wink.gif
 



 


No, I answered the question you asked them for myself, not them.  There is a difference.  If I said as a matter of fact THEY have then I would be answering the question FOR THEM.  Giving the people what they want, when they want it, for a price is and allowing them to choose how to spend their money (shop tune VS DIY) is "Capitalism". Giving them what some self professed expert thinks is best for them and calling them stupid for trying to choose otherwise is "Socialism".

 

post #45 of 51

Ya can spin it however ya want. I didn't ask you!duel.gif   biggrin.gif

biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


No, I answered the question you asked them for myself, not them.  There is a difference.  If I said as a matter of fact THEY have then I would be answering the question FOR THEM.  Giving the people what they want, when they want it, for a price is and allowing them to choose how to spend their money (shop tune VS DIY) is "Capitalism". Giving them what some self professed expert thinks is best for them and calling them stupid for trying to choose otherwise is "Socialism".

 



 

post #46 of 51

Sometimes you just have to go by the results.  If I want to flat file a pair of skis, I will use a #12 Bastard File and can easily in 15 minutes; flatten the ski, do the base edges to razor sharpness and take care of the P Tex base very well.  The answer to enable the ptex base to get flat and clean it up etc., is to clean the card file cleaning brush constantly or it will fill with ptex and haardly work at all.

 

Restructure base with same card file brush and reverse the direction getting a definite structuring.

 

Use Slidewrights wax and you will get faster immediately.   Skied Lookout today and on the bottom of chair 2 I literally leave everyone in the dust on the flats at the bottom, ditto on Hootowl Road this being Results that speak for itself with some real fast gliding.

 

If you don't know how, don't have the tools, don't have the experience and/or have never felt the results of a good home job then take your skis to a shop and have some clown grinding them up for you.

 

AND.  If you can't cook - well then go to a restaurant stupid.   snowfight.gif

post #47 of 51

Here's the gizmo I use to measure bevels.  It's a machinist's bevel protractor ($50 for the cheapo import I got) that I happened to have for other uses.  It's not as convenient by far as the SVST tool appears to be though.  The way I use the bevel protractor, I have to shine a light from behind to be able to tell when the arm is seated on the edge correctly, since it will not simply adjust itself to the edge (there's too much friction).  It's hard to measure base bevels accurately with it though.

 

DSCF5345.JPG

 

Below, it's showing a 3 degree side bevel (that is, an angle of 87 degrees between the base and the side edge).

 

DSCF5343.JPG
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarks View Post

 

Dec2011 054.jpg


 

 


 

 

post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

Sometimes you just have to go by the results.  If I want to flat file a pair of skis, I will use a #12 Bastard File and can easily in 15 minutes; flatten the ski, do the base edges to razor sharpness and take care of the P Tex base very well.  The answer to enable the ptex base to get flat and clean it up etc., is to clean the card file cleaning brush constantly or it will fill with ptex and haardly work at all.

 

Restructure base with same card file brush and reverse the direction getting a definite structuring.

 

Use Slidewrights wax and you will get faster immediately.   Skied Lookout today and on the bottom of chair 2 I literally leave everyone in the dust on the flats at the bottom, ditto on Hootowl Road this being Results that speak for itself with some real fast gliding.

 

If you don't know how, don't have the tools, don't have the experience and/or have never felt the results of a good home job then take your skis to a shop and have some clown grinding them up for you.

 

AND.  If you can't cook - well then go to a restaurant stupid.   snowfight.gif



There are some great tuner out there.  And they don't charge an arm and leg.   Here in western maine Best Tunes.  Buster know his stuff.  He tune 89% of all the race in the area.  He changes the struture as season changes, more open for warmer snow.  

 

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Have you ever measured your base bevel.  . Have you skied on a ski with a measured known .5 .75 or 1 degree to compare to how your skis performs?


Do you like how your skis perform?

If so, then rock on. icon14.gif



 


No.  I don't have an angle measure tool.

 

I flat file at the beginning of the season.  Bevel the angle with a series of moonflex files.  After that I just tune the sides the rest of the year with the moonflex files every 2-3 ski days.  Never check to see if the base is perfectly flat.  It could be way off.

 

They ski great though. No edge hold issues on ice (which is all we have right now).

 

post #50 of 51

Most of my experience with flat filing bases has been mentioned in these many posts.  But,  It's an open forum, I I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to MY opinion!  ;-)

 

1st,  I will remain emphatic on the position that removing P-Tex from a base high ski with a metal file is an exercise in futility.  (Those Montana machines make it look like the best time for money swap I have ever seen)

 

2nd,  It is ridiculously easy to add base bevel while trying to remove it.  In fact, unless the file is backed with a 2inch I beam (figurative),  it's hard to even get near to flat.  A straight edge confirms this,  no need for fancy angle measuring gizmos.  (Of which I have many due to my metal work and machining interests)

 

3rd,  cabinet scrapers dull rapidly when rubbed on work hardened ski edges.

I use a high speed steel (HSS) tool bit with a sharp square edge, and still the edges on the ski defeats the sharpness of the tool (Scissors, paper, rock)

 

4th,  ski edge files are pretty pricey and don't last long on some ski edges (too hard),  making the shop prices seem more reasonable.

 

5th  I still "flat file at least a couple times every year,  and then take the skis in for a pass through the Montana to bring out the flatness.

 

6th  The fancy machines will NOT flatten the bases and the edges. The stones that grind P-tex do not want to see steel,  and the "ceramic stones" that do the edges can not be set to "Zero" .  Or if they are,  don't cut metal.  

 

Damn this flat base thing is hard!

 

Still,  My choice is to begin with "zero-zero" base and side,  and let the rocks do their thing!  ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

post #51 of 51



icon14.gificon14.gifbiggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post

Most of my experience with flat filing bases has been mentioned in these many posts.  But,  It's an open forum, I I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to MY opinion!  ;-)

 

1st,  I will remain emphatic on the position that removing P-Tex from a base high ski with a metal file is an exercise in futility.  (Those Montana machines make it look like the best time for money swap I have ever seen)

 

2nd,  It is ridiculously easy to add base bevel while trying to remove it.  In fact, unless the file is backed with a 2inch I beam (figurative),  it's hard to even get near to flat.  A straight edge confirms this,  no need for fancy angle measuring gizmos.  (Of which I have many due to my metal work and machining interests)

 

3rd,  cabinet scrapers dull rapidly when rubbed on work hardened ski edges.

I use a high speed steel (HSS) tool bit with a sharp square edge, and still the edges on the ski defeats the sharpness of the tool (Scissors, paper, rock)

 

4th,  ski edge files are pretty pricey and don't last long on some ski edges (too hard),  making the shop prices seem more reasonable.

 

5th  I still "flat file at least a couple times every year,  and then take the skis in for a pass through the Montana to bring out the flatness.

 

6th  The fancy machines will NOT flatten the bases and the edges. The stones that grind P-tex do not want to see steel,  and the "ceramic stones" that do the edges can not be set to "Zero" .  Or if they are,  don't cut metal.  

 

Damn this flat base thing is hard!

 

Still,  My choice is to begin with "zero-zero" base and side,  and let the rocks do their thing!  ;-)

 

 

 

 

 



 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs