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360 Aerial vs Ground

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

This may seem like an odd question but it boils down to this:

 

When you hear someone ask about a 360 do you assume aerial?

 

I certainly did/do.  As a self taught goober who in the 80's took my jean wearing, skinny skied, gaitered self up to the mountain with my other teen friends and we would essentially try to out do each other jumping off anything possible.  But I never really learned how to actually ski.  To this day (now in mid 40's, back to skiing after 25 year layoff) can land an aerial 360 off anything from about 1-4 ft high (the vast majority of the time).

 

HOWEVER, in following my daughter (7) around in her learning to ski adventure, one of the drills she has learned is a flat spinning 360.  AND I CAN'T FRIGGING DO IT!  I get to 180 about 95% of the time, but I can only complete the spin about 15% of the time, I either fall or wind up at a full stop facing uphill and step around.  She will spin both ways for the full 360 several times, then laugh at me picking snow out of my waistband.  What am I missing?  Does anybody but me find it much harder to do a 360 on the snow than in the air?

 

As a side note, for those of us who may be (shudder) terminal intermediates, who now have kids who are getting a much better opportunity to ski than we ever had (I got maybe 10 days per year from age 14-18), when is it OK for your kid to pass you up.  Intellectually you may be saying "I just want her to be the best she/he can be and I am so proud".  But some part of you HAS to be thinking "Dammit that kid is only xxx years old and I SHOULD be better than him/her!"  I am not at that point yet (not counting the flat 360 thing), but if the current trajectory holds up, I may only hold out for another 3-4 years.

 

/EDIT: I am fully aware that passing me up for someone who started skiing at age 3 might be akin to becoming the best concert cellist in Folsom NM.


Edited by Alveolus - 12/28/11 at 8:32pm
post #2 of 20

what I do for a ground 360 is first turn my upper body around and then whip my hips around without doing losing speed, and pretty much the same to get back forwards.  Then again that might not actually be how I do it, but I think it is (although I could have gotten it opposite, its just something I sort of naturally do).   

 

Now if only I could learn an aerial 360...

post #3 of 20

If you are stalling the rotation at the point where you are facing up hill then you are most likly edging too much at the start. The "flatspin" or on the ground 360 is often used as a drill to help skiers with their edging. Edging can also be the ability to go to a flat ski. At the start of your spin try to go to as flat of a base as posible without catching your down hill edge. You should still be traveling down hill in the same direction while your body turns. This way you will still have some speed in order switch edges to finnish out the rotation in the same direction.

I hope this helps.

Let us know if it worked.

post #4 of 20

In the air, it is a helicopter damn it. wink.gif

 

As far as the 360 on the ground, I find it is very easy to do, once you get to the 180, keeping you momentum, a light pole plant will get you around the rest of the way. So, to start the 360 (counterclockwise), start with pressuring the forebode of your skis as you plant your left pole and start the spin as you spin and get to 180*, move your weight slightly back to pressuring the tails, plant the right pole with a slight touch, this will help you continue that momentum around. 

 

Once you get it down try it clockwise. This is a great drill for finding the center of your ski stance where you are most natural. Do not do this drill repeatedly right after lunch, especially if you had chili. 

post #5 of 20

a ground 360 is  blend of all the skills.

 

if your getting to 180 its because your not commiting to your new turning foot.

 

Clockwise - both skis rotate to the right while your pressure on the left ski transfer balance to your right skis as you turn look down the hill finish.

 

Counter clock wise - both ski rotate to the left while you pressure you right skis as you go backwards transfer balance to your left ski and look down the hill and finish.

 

once you get good its easy enough to do them on one leg as well.

 

 

Alot of people go backwards and lean up the hill and fall into a wedge or simply are not intinating a turn. I got news for you if your daughter can do this and you can not she is already a better skier than you she just doesnt know it or how to apply it.

 

I literally teach this to Level 3 all the time as a wedge buster, and if they can commit it almost always works

 

 

 

 

post #6 of 20

This:
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredBroker View Post

If you are stalling the rotation at the point where you are facing up hill then you are most likly edging too much at the start. The "flatspin" or on the ground 360 is often used as a drill to help skiers with their edging. Edging can also be the ability to go to a flat ski. At the start of your spin try to go to as flat of a base as posible without catching your down hill edge. You should still be traveling down hill in the same direction while your body turns. This way you will still have some speed in order switch edges to finnish out the rotation in the same direction.

I hope this helps.

Let us know if it worked.

 

And this:
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

a ground 360 is  blend of all the skills.

 

if your getting to 180 its because your not commiting to your new turning foot.

 

Clockwise - both skis rotate to the right while your pressure on the left ski transfer balance to your right skis as you turn look down the hill finish.

 

Counter clock wise - both ski rotate to the left while you pressure you right skis as you go backwards transfer balance to your left ski and look down the hill and finish.

 

once you get good its easy enough to do them on one leg as well.

 

 


The two go hand in hand. Keeping your skis relatively flat helps you keep speed and rotate without turning (like a pivot slip). Maintaining that speed will aid you in keeping up rotation for the second half of the spin, and will make the weight transfer to the other foot feel more natural (IMO).

 

You are probably using the first half of the 360 to slow down because the idea of travelling backwards and spinning back forwards at speed feels instinctively dangerous, and you are used to falling while doing that motion. But that very slowing/edging is probably what causes you to fall. Maintain speed and rotation, keep the edges flat, and shift weight at Bushwacker states above (side to side, not fore and aft), and the skis will come around. 

 

Pretty much everything on skis that relates to precisely controlled skidding depends on weight transfer and and edge feel. If you get that part right, you barely have to do anything with your legs to guide the skis in a 360. 

 

post #7 of 20

I am able to spin 360 on ground but have not yet tried on in the air.  I am afraid they you need speed up to do one that way and I don't want to crash!  I bought my daughter rocker skis last year and she is able to do the ground ones at a pretty decent speed, I am sure that the ski type must have some sort of effect.

post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
 I got news for you if your daughter can do this and you can not she is already a better skier than you she just doesnt know it or how to apply it.


OK, that is just...unacceptable.  So if anyone at Crystal over the next couple of weeks sees a devilishly handsome guy repeatedly doing ground 360's all day and falling a lot.....it might be Brad Pitt and you should probably go up and say hi.  If however you see a standard issue middle aged dude doing the same thing...that would be me.

 

post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtebor View Post

I am able to spin 360 on ground but have not yet tried on in the air.  I am afraid they you need speed up to do one that way and I don't want to crash!  I bought my daughter rocker skis last year and she is able to do the ground ones at a pretty decent speed, I am sure that the ski type must have some sort of effect.



I think so, too. I'm not expert on the subject, but my primary skis are rockered and I've de-tuned the tips and tails. Thus, when I spin around, my edges never catch. I'm sure technique might have a lot to do with it, but I feel that I really must give more credit to my equipment in this case.

post #10 of 20

I use flatspin 360's (or 720's, 1080's, etc...) as a fore/aft weighting drill. To initiate my flatspins, I turn my skis ever so slightly out of the fall line. I emphasize ever so slightly, because I'm not making a turn, I'm just creating an angle between my skis and the fall line. Once my skis are out of the fall line, I shift my weight forward and load up the tips of my skis. At that first initiation, I will use edging on my ski tips. Once my my skis cross perpendicular to the fall line, I shift my weight aft, and release my edges. By doing so, I complete the spin. From there, I can continue to spin, keeping my skis flat and moving my weight forward to go from forward to switch, and aft to go from switch to forward skiing. On a moderate green slope with a steady pitch, I managed to string together something like 25 flat spins before I ran out of room/ felt the need to barf.

 

I think the really big thing to keep in mind is that a flat spin is not a turn. While you are spinning, your direction of travel should remain a constant, straight line. This line is usually down the fall line, but if you're good about it, you can develop the ability to do a flat spin on a line that isn't the fall line.

post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 

OK, brief update.  Of the 14 days spent skiing so far this year anywhere from 5-10 min on each day was spent working on this.  Anytime there was plenty of room on a run out or other gentle slope I would hear the artist formerly known as BWPA (sounding like Yoda) "Better than you already she is" and do a few.  Nail it about 95% of the time both ways now, when I don't it is usually because I have lost speed and lean/angle to finish and catch the big toe side of the trailing ski, happens at about the 280 mark when it happens but becoming rare now, have even linked up to 4 together.

 

As a side benefit, practicing this has lead to working on my switch skiing (sucks but improving)....back in my jean/gaiter teen days if you were skiing backwards it just meant you had under-committed to your "helicopter" (You big wuss)

post #12 of 20

Edge control.  You have to be able to transition from one edge to flat to the other smoothly.

post #13 of 20

If you have the 180 part down the second half is easy....  Just look over your shoulder down the hill and you will come right around.  I could make it more complicated than that, but it doesn't need to be.  If you look as you are coming around into the 180 you will follow through naturally without stallling and your feet will pretty much change edges and do what they need to do realativly automatically.  Practice them in both directions and then try to link several together.  It's good to be able to ski on a flat ski!

post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alveolus View Post

If however you see a standard issue middle aged dude doing the same thing...that would be me.


I resemble that remark!  

 

Watch this video, it will change your life. 

 

 

Or at least help you learn to do flat spins.  ;-)

post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post


I resemble that remark!  

 

Watch this video, it will change your life. 

 

 

Or at least help you learn to do flat spins.  ;-)




Ok I am going out today and making a better video because this guy can not do these well at all and its frustrating that everyone I know can do them better than this guy including me.  this is the second time this video has come on here and really not one person should have ever watched it.

 

something in the vido that are flat out wrong.  wedge or duck stance should be avoided at all cost. having anything less than a matching stance is determental to completing these spins He has no fore and aft balance control due to being overflexed at the waist. HE also is turning and not pivoting. the skiing is so bad it is almost like joke if you ever seen these done right.

post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post

Ok I am going out today and making a better video because this guy can not do these well at all and its frustrating that everyone I know can do them better than this guy including me. ... the skiing is so bad it is almost like joke if you ever seen these done right.


( So ^^^ unexpected! ;-)

 

Josh, is this your video of which you speak?

 

 

Regardless, I Love You Man! Keep wankin' da bush, wankin' da bush!

post #17 of 20

 

Quote:
....back in my jean/gaiter teen days if you were skiing backwards it just meant you had under-committed to your "helicopter" (You big wuss)

 

Ha! When we were doing it we were just being d1cks....

post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

Regardless, I Love You Man! Keep wankin' da bush, wankin' da bush!


Though not said with a particular amount of temperance, I have to agree with Josh. Looks like a very small skier in very still boots... no ankle flexion going on, rear out, chest forward, which keeps him from working inside the boot to make his spins smooth and both skis pivoting simultaneously. Looking forward to seeing your video Josh.  

 

post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Though not said with a particular amount of temperance, I have to agree with Josh. Looks like a very small skier in very still boots... no ankle flexion going on, rear out, chest forward, which keeps him from working inside the boot to make his spins smooth and both skis pivoting simultaneously. Looking forward to seeing your video Josh.  

 



did not get any today but it will be done.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/110223/dolphins-turns-video#post_1430674

 

I bet the posted of that video would fail at the task in that thread due to every point you mentioned.

post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Though not said with a particular amount of temperance, I have to agree with Josh. Looks like a very small skier in very stiff boots... no ankle flexion going on, rear out, chest forward, which keeps him from working inside the boot to make his spins smooth and both skis pivoting simultaneously. Looking forward to seeing your video Josh.  

 



...meant to stay "stiff boots".  Hey cool! I was able to edit my own quote. Don't know if that's a good thing or not. 

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