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Mounting bindings and the factory line

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 

I have read quite a few posts on here about mounting bindings and different ways to find your COG.  My question is how do the ski manufacturers determine the baseline for the ski? Is it based on a certain height or weight or is it simply a catch all to suggest people mount them dead center if they are not needing to dial there gear in exactly?

 

 

post #2 of 11

I'm pretty sure they just guess, based on my experience.

 

post #3 of 11
Depends on the shape/flex of the ski and what they are for usually determines the mounting points.
post #4 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoof2 View Post

I'm pretty sure they just guess, based on my experience.

 


I am thinking with all of the technology that goes into skis that they might put some sort of thought into it? Can't envision a guy at the end of a production line with a sharpie drawing some tick marks on the ski.

 

If I can hammer a nail into the wall of my garage and balance a ski to find dead center then I think they certainly would? Or slide a playing card under each end of the ski to see where the running surface begins and ends.

 

From upir replies I am guessing a guy should simply disregard any and all marks and simply find your own sweet spot on the ski.
 

 

post #5 of 11

Dynastar uses a raised line that is milled into the upper layers of the materials in the construction. that way any shifting of the top sheet during assembly does not move a mark which would be printed into the top sheet only. they take that mark pretty seriously considering that method. other marking methods by some other manufacturers have produced less than accurate or consistent measurements.

 

for general skiing, on skis made by reliable manufacturers, the mark is often correct. granted, for some styles it is not. and many theories about correcting the location of the mark are not solidly based in fact, IMO,  (forward is quicker turning, back more stable type of thinking).

 

I would like to see the ski companies mark also the lateral center of the ski (across the width).

post #6 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnpedro75 View Post

My question is how do the ski manufacturers determine the baseline for the ski? Is it based on a certain height or weight or is it simply a catch all to suggest people mount them dead center if they are not needing to dial there gear in exactly?


Knowing that big dollars go into the manufacturing of skis, would it not make sense that ski manufacturers not only use basic engineering to determine a mount point suitable for the majority of riders on the ski, but also test it before hand with team riders to determine what they thought was best.  All that said, I just go with the recommended mount point or perhaps a bit back if a powder ski.

 

post #7 of 11

Check out the articles at Lou's site under NEWS/MEDIA then TECH ARTICLES   www.lous.ca

 

The BEST place to mount your bindings starts with the ball of your foot at the center of the running surface (BOF CRS).  Going back from there for off-piste is generally the rule.  The lines on boots and skis are generic and worthless IMO.

post #8 of 11

When Lou says that once the formula for the boot center line is established by calculations based on center of running surface it can be used on all brands and models of ski, I have to reject the theory. I would prefer to use (on recreational skis) a position determined by the ski's engineer, as every ski is different and the engineer that makes the ski is considering those variables. Lou's theory is in fact less flexible and considers far fewer variables. To say that the location of the waist of the ski is irrelevant is utter bunk. To say that the distribution of flex characteristics is irrelevant is total bull.  The arrogance is over the top. I'll leave the racing set ups to the racers, as those skis are a whole different animal.

post #9 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnpedro75 View Post

... My question is how do the ski manufacturers determine the baseline for the ski? Is it based on a certain height or weight or is it simply a catch all to suggest people mount them dead center if they are not needing to dial there gear in exactly?

 



Exactly? there is no such thing. Manu lines are based on some history, a smattering of on snow tests and a good dollup of voodoo - expert voodoo.

 

how do skiers deal? they adapt.

 

What the best binding position is, will vary with the skier and their equipment and the mtn/conditions, all put into the framework of their intended skiing.

boot midsole on mark?  BOF on CRS? Campbell balancer?  take a pick...

 one has to pick a starting point and then either use it or make adjustments based on some other parameters. Even back when we all skied 'straights', binding position was always a hand-wringing process, with much tribulation, unless you had some skis to try with bindings allowing variable positions...

campbell balancer? might be ok, but might not be better than the other 2 methods cause there's more to skiing than just the balance point - flex characteristics, profile have a large contribution to how a ski reacts.

 

with all the new ski designs, good luck on finding that 'best' position.

actually, one of the best developments over the recent years have been plate and rail system bindings which allow mulitple positions by small increments - the best way to find what works for you is to be able to vary your position and test.

Sadly most of those systems have been retired and we're back to simple one-point location mounted bindings - drill the holes and pray...

 

so most skiers adapt to their mount position, or not - so we find that some skis we just don;t like - or maybe we just don;t like them with the bindings mounted where they are... ?

 

is there a better way? sure, get some position variable binding systems and find what works for you.

 

post #10 of 11

The idea that a skier who probably has serious technique deficiencies is going to ski test the boot center location lacks. ski.gifthis guy is available to test binding location for you if you don't trust rossi; at least he doesn't ski in the back seat like 90% of you, and then keep moving the binding back or forward until the ski catches them. 'Course everyone knows that true bros always move the binding back a few centimeters to handle their awesome speed. 

 

I mean what could a rossi engineer and a world class skier accomplish by putting their heads together?  They just press some random pile of materials and toss it out the door with a mark somewhere. yeah, that's exactly how I picture it also. rolleyes.gif

 

post #11 of 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri View Post

The idea that a skier who probably has serious technique deficiencies is going to ski test the boot center location lacks. ski.gifthis guy is available to test binding location for you if you don't trust rossi; at least he doesn't ski in the back seat like 90% of you, and then keep moving the binding back or forward until the ski catches them. 'Course everyone knows that true bros always move the binding back a few centimeters to handle their awesome speed. 

 

I mean what could a rossi engineer and a world class skier accomplish by putting their heads together?  They just press some random pile of materials and toss it out the door with a mark somewhere. yeah, that's exactly how I picture it also. rolleyes.gif

 



not a matter of trusting Rossi... but what works for any particular skier. And if someone isn;t sure about what they're doin then the fallback is the factory mark (or the 2 other methods).

but deciding on your own could make a very important difference...

I.E. - here is an excerpt from a Rossi E98 review posted here:

http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/review-2011-2012-rossignol-experience-98-188cm

 

"...My first impressions of the Experience 98 were good. The ski turned easily on groomers – quick edge-to-edge and silky smooth. That impression soon disappeared, however, when I took it into more difficult terrain. The ski became hooky and unpredictable, and was unstable at speed. I took the skis back to the Rossignol rep, Tyler, and told him what I thought. Tyler said, “come back and try it again tomorrow and I’ll set the binding back a little bit.” I did just that, and sure enough the ski performed much better: everything became smooth and stable, and speed and bumps were no longer an issue..."

 

note that even the Rossi rep immediately went to moving the boot location - this could/would not happen with a fixed mount location.

if you read further in the review, the reviewer again finds the need to move the boot, on another test day. On this Ski, on those days, the 'mark' did not serve him best.

How would someone determine this without the flexibility of moveable bindings and trying other positions?

How many skiers actually ski their skis before buying? And of those, how many actually move their position on a demo to experience the different position?

Based on the above review, as a sales/tech person in a shop, would I immediately recommend mounting the bindings a cm back for a good skier?

I would be very leery to go away from a std, just on shop floor talk.

Is there a good chance there might be a 'better' position for any skier on any ski - other than the 'mark'? I think the answer is self-evident.

We adapt... and when options are available, we make use of them.

 

BTW, I'm not as critical on the general skier population - I'd say 99% of all skiers on any hill on any day will make a technical error (or errors) on any run they make - easily including myself... But that doesn;t mean they're not proficient and capable of skiing well the rest of any run/day.

I can easily assume that there are a lot of good skiers here on Epic. They are who this thread is talkin to.

Respect to Rossi, the designers, all the way down to the reps - but skiing is still a lot of voodoo - thankfully so.

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