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Two ways to engage the shovels - Page 2

post #31 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Thanks for the reply again, Gigatoh--and I think we're in full agreement in principle, along with Bud. Forward leverage--and aft leverage--are situational techniques for creating specific ski performance outcomes, and you've described the outcome of forward leverage well. And when those situations where forward leverage might be useful arise, it is almost always in the top half of the turn.
I contend that those situational exceptions when forward leverage is the "right" move are much rarer than many skiers believe. As Bud says, we should not consider forward leverage our "go to" technique, but rather should think of the very dynamic effort to keep the pressure centered on the sweet spot as the default. Keep leverage open as an option. Use it judiciously when necessary. I see an awful lot of racer-types plastered right up against the fronts of their boots, causing them to become very static, as their tails twist out in the tops of their turns (and usually wash out in the bottoms as well, due to the upper body rotation that almost invariably accompanies forward leverage). You'll note that there's very little forward leverage in any part of the turns in my "Transitions" video clip linked to above.
Good reply, Gigatoh!
Best regards,
Bob


Yeah, leveraging to me is the 'final' physical skill in skiing and still I rarely ever use it. Like you said, it hardly is ever called for and secondly, it really isn't that easy to perform correctly.

I sometimes think that too many have read Ron le Master, misinterpret his writings and try to use the ski to ski when they should be using their legs to ski. There's usually a lot of other stuff they could/ should be working on instead. But it's still cool to talk about it :)

 

post #32 of 37
Quote:
misinterpret his writings and try to use the ski to ski when they should be using their legs to ski.

what a great thought, Gigatoh!

Best regards,
Bob
post #33 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Bud, I think you are leaving out option "3", which is  a series of movements that I have been preaching for a couple of years around these parts and is a VERY effective way to pressure the shovels early in the high "C", to almost effortlessly engage the shovel edges during initiation and is the opposite of pressuring the tongues.

 

Option 3:

While retracting, flexing the knees slightly, but quickly to release the edges from the old turn, simultaneously "open" or extend the ankles and push down with the toes, which puts pressure on the back of the boot and leverages that pressure to the toes and balls of the foot while rolling the ankle (inverting) of the new downhill ski/boot to generate high edge angles.

 

How could you leave out this series of movements which are very often most effective and extremely smooth and efficient?  Why even discuss the 2 least effective methods to engage early shovel initiation, tipping alone and pressuring the tongues combined with tipping I suppose?

 

 

 

 


Well, I certainly did not mean to leave an option out of the mix!  I believe your technique would be a blend of both as you suggested.  This sounds similar to my concept of "twist n tip" which involves the biomechanically linked movements of eversion and abduction of the outside foot and inversion and adduction of the inside foot to edge the skis.  Of course this action also requires and accurate toppling movement. 

 

post #34 of 37

Watching expert skiers you can see the tips of the skis leap into the air. These experts will quickly do something to drive those tips back to the snow. Is it as simple as standing on the sweet spot of the ski?

post #35 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post

Watching expert skiers you can see the tips of the skis leap into the air. These experts will quickly do something to drive those tips back to the snow. Is it as simple as standing on the sweet spot of the ski?



Well, maybe not as simple as the concept itself. We have to ask ourselves why (purpose) these skiers make the moves to get their tips back on the snow? Isn't it because they want to get back to that "sweet spot"?

 

In my minds eye if I replay skiers I have seen "getting their tips back on the snow" what I don't see them doing is crushing forward on their boot cuffs. You're right though, staying in that sweet spot is not always an easy thing to accomplish, but when I'm there I find all my options available to me.

post #36 of 37
Well said, RicB! I do agree. Fighting for that sweet spot can yield great rewards--while keeping all your options open.

Best regards,
Bob
post #37 of 37
Thread Starter 

And that fighting usually entails moving more with gravity than against it.  Which could be construed as more giving into, rather than a fighting for?  When we see an expert skier's tips leap into the air then porpoise back to earth, it is more of a relaxation of the ankles with an accurate trajectory of the Cm which enables the fluid re-entry.  As RicB said, it is not a crushing of the boot tongues or a leveraging forward to the tips. 

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