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Do-It-Yourself Tuning vs. Shop Tuning - Page 4

post #91 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I see the add for the 26, but my mouse rolling over it does nothing.  Maybe it's your browser options.

 

Also I've spent a good number of days on glare ice, and when it wasn't ice it was more often than not scraped off hardpack that other people call ice, and next it was (and still is) usually hard packed snow, so I've developed an affinity for dangerously sharp edges; probably the long 1 degree bevel would be fine with snow under the ski.  Never really noticed any problem back in the day skiing snow with any of the old Dynastar gs skis that I rented (they were softer than my SGs) when skiing out west sans ice.

 

Don't bother with your base edge until you feel a need to.  And the base bevel will wear out and grow just by skiing on it, so you will likely need to reset it once in a while regardless of sharpness requirements.  If you do your base bevel, do it sparingly you will end up with a base high condition.  In fact even if you do it right, you will eventually end up with at least a "long bevel", and unless you base bevel goes all the way to the other side of the ski (most don't), it will take it's reference from that "long bevel".  Base grind is required to fix the base high condition.

I ski the same snow...I use to have all my skis at 1°. But last year, I bought a Radical 9 sl and the shop made it at 0.5° and I just loved it! For this year, I'm keeping my 9sl at 0.5  and my all-mountain at 1° but I change my carvers to 0.75°...I look forward to seeing if I will feel the difference...especially on my Fire Arrow edt! I love to carve with it but I find it a little slow to engage (regardless of the widht).


I first started skiing the 0.5 a few decades ago, when my new super-g skis came with that bevel.  I think most skis were skied at zero degrees back then, so it was an easy adjustment to make.  I still ski my old SGs once in a while and still like the 0.5 bevel.   I like it so much that I reset all my skis to 0.5 once they need a base grind.  That makes me an outlier, as most would want a bigger bevel on their speed skis. 

post #92 of 113

All your skis? Even for skied out trees and hard bumps?

post #93 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

 I think most skis were skied at zero degrees back then

Tuned to B-Flat, as we liked to say.

post #94 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I see the add for the 26, but my mouse rolling over it does nothing.  Maybe it's your browser options.

 

Also I've spent a good number of days on glare ice, and when it wasn't ice it was more often than not scraped off hardpack that other people call ice, and next it was (and still is) usually hard packed snow, so I've developed an affinity for dangerously sharp edges; probably the long 1 degree bevel would be fine with snow under the ski.  Never really noticed any problem back in the day skiing snow with any of the old Dynastar gs skis that I rented (they were softer than my SGs) when skiing out west sans ice.

 

Don't bother with your base edge until you feel a need to.  And the base bevel will wear out and grow just by skiing on it, so you will likely need to reset it once in a while regardless of sharpness requirements.  If you do your base bevel, do it sparingly you will end up with a base high condition.  In fact even if you do it right, you will eventually end up with at least a "long bevel", and unless you base bevel goes all the way to the other side of the ski (most don't), it will take it's reference from that "long bevel".  Base grind is required to fix the base high condition.

You know that grinding is not required.  Many do it with scrapers.  Look at the photo.  That is not wax.  It is base plastic on the scraper.  There was also a ton of it on the floor that you don't see.
 


One must do a long bevel prior to doing it like this.   On another note.........add blockers are awesome.

post #95 of 113

Jaques,

You have my interest.  When you have some time, can you start a new thread on DIY  Base High correction, done at home with simple tools, recommended scrapers, step by step procedures.   I usually spin the roulette wheel get it done by a shop with a multi-thousand dollar machine, and hope they don't have a monkey at the controls.  If I can do this at home, at lest I know which operator to blame.

post #96 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

All your skis? Even for skied out trees and hard bumps?


All my skis (Fischer WC SC, Volkl P50F1, Volant Machette G, Kastle  RX National Team SG ), except for the one I don't ski anymore (circa 1970 Dynastar GS), but I suck at bumps, not as bad on the SCs and P50s as on the SGs, but I still suck at bumps.  :)

 

A tree skiing pair of skis is on my wish list.  I'll have to see about that 0.5 when I get them.  The Fischers work ok, not great in trees with the 0.5, but they are a little too stiff and too short (165 cm) for deeper snow and tight trees.

post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

You know that grinding is not required.  Many do it with scrapers.  Look at the photo.  That is not wax.  It is base plastic on the scraper.  There was also a ton of it on the floor that you don't see.
 

 


One must do a long bevel prior to doing it like this.   On another note.........add blockers are awesome.

I'm hesitating between:

It's time to clean up!

or

You must have a big carpet so we don't see it...

 

Add blockers...yup....

post #98 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

All your skis? Even for skied out trees and hard bumps?


All my skis (Fischer WC SC, Volkl P50F1, Volant Machette G, Kastle  RX National Team SG ), except for the one I don't ski anymore (circa 1970 Dynastar GS), but I suck at bumps, not as bad on the SCs and P50s as on the SGs, but I still suck at bumps.  :)

 

A tree skiing pair of skis is on my wish list.  I'll have to see about that 0.5 when I get them.  The Fischers work ok, not great in trees with the 0.5, but they are a little too stiff and too short (165 cm) for deeper snow and tight trees.


Actually I'm undecided about the P50s, as they are becoming my go-to skis for bumps and the 1 degree bevel makes them oh-so-much easier to smear lower speed turns with.

post #99 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Jaques,

You have my interest.  When you have some time, can you start a new thread on DIY  Base High correction, done at home with simple tools, recommended scrapers, step by step procedures.   I usually spin the roulette wheel get it done by a shop with a multi-thousand dollar machine, and hope they don't have a monkey at the controls.  If I can do this at home, at lest I know which operator to blame.


It should be back up in this thread.  The video is titled How To Renew a Sintered Base Ski and Fix Base Burn.  I still maintained a long bevel in this one, but one only needs to continue the process until they come into contact with the base edge.  I really prefer this method to grinding.   It's on Page 2.

post #100 of 113

Found it, Thanks.  Post 52; you're the man Thumbs Up 

post #101 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Found it, Thanks.  Post 52; you're the man Thumbs Up 


The Man....don't know about that!   I do know there is more than one way to skin a cat though.  One can buy a super sharp skiver to do the same thing, but maybe that's too sharp!  Plus it won't impart structure but there are tools for that too.  Be good now!

post #102 of 113
post #103 of 113
for those interested, probably the best way to soften edge engagement on harder snow while at the same time maintaining grip is to increase your base bevel (say from .5 to .7 or from .7 to 1) and increase your side bevel (say from 3 to 4). this will help ensure that there isnt any unecessary wandering due to a quasi base high condition...

if you want to get super techy with it, you can even apply a variable base bevel eg, .7 near the tip and tail, and .5 for the remaining 85% of the base edge. you can even take this a step further and impart .7 near the tip, .5 in the forebody, .25 underfoot, back to .5 for the "afterbody", and finally .7 again for the tail area. note these angles can be changed eg, 1 tip, .7 forebody, .5 underfoot, .7 afterbody, and 1 tail area. this is more of a euro approach, though i know of techs here in the states that do this as well (to include myself). this is a more labor intensive process...ymmv. smile.gif

zenny
post #104 of 113

They are good tools I'm sure.  The hands behind them will be important as with any tools.  For me I like to keep it simple as possible so I don't have those.  For what they cost verses a grind, and the use one will get from them, I think it's a good investment.  The maker feels as I do about them providing a clean cut without any plastic creep, and that can lead to a more "open" base as far as wax absorption after the fact.  As long as one realizes that some to many skis have tapered tips and tails, and don't try to flatten those parts totally I like the tools.  You aren't going to use one of those on a DPS Spoon though!  If I had one of those old and dry I could still use a metal scraper with "art" to fix them up.  Bottom line for me is they are, or may be better option than a base grind.  One can not get a fancy structure with breaks in it etc., but for the average skier like me who still wants good tuning I give them a thumbs up.   Thumbs Up 


Edited by Jacques - 10/20/13 at 1:54pm
post #105 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

for those interested, probably the best way to soften edge engagement on harder snow while at the same time maintaining grip is to increase your base bevel (say from .5 to .7 or from .7 to 1) and increase your side bevel (say from 3 to 4). this will help ensure that there isnt any unecessary wandering due to a quasi base high condition...

if you want to get super techy with it, you can even apply a variable base bevel eg, .7 near the tip and tail, and .5 for the remaining 85% of the base edge. you can even take this a step further and impart .7 near the tip, .5 in the forebody, .25 underfoot, back to .5 for the "afterbody", and finally .7 again for the tail area. note these angles can be changed eg, 1 tip, .7 forebody, .5 underfoot, .7 afterbody, and 1 tail area. this is more of a euro approach, though i know of techs here in the states that do this as well (to include myself). this is a more labor intensive process...ymmv. smile.gif

zenny


I think all the variable base bevel is for totally flat skis with no rocker or taper.  The newer skis seam to be taking up those issues through the shapes of the bases themselves.  While early rise and rocker is newer, taper has been around for a long time it seems to me.  And yes, way too much work!  If one has the Zen and time though go for it. 

Here is a link to a good description on the process.  http://www.pezwinter.blogspot.be/2012/01/understanding-applying-variable-base.html

post #106 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

for those interested, probably the best way to soften edge engagement on harder snow while at the same time maintaining grip is to increase your base bevel (say from .5 to .7 or from .7 to 1) and increase your side bevel (say from 3 to 4). this will help ensure that there isnt any unecessary wandering due to a quasi base high condition...

if you want to get super techy with it, you can even apply a variable base bevel eg, .7 near the tip and tail, and .5 for the remaining 85% of the base edge. you can even take this a step further and impart .7 near the tip, .5 in the forebody, .25 underfoot, back to .5 for the "afterbody", and finally .7 again for the tail area. note these angles can be changed eg, 1 tip, .7 forebody, .5 underfoot, .7 afterbody, and 1 tail area. this is more of a euro approach, though i know of techs here in the states that do this as well (to include myself). this is a more labor intensive process...ymmv. smile.gif

zenny

So if I don't like one of my carver with the 0.75° base bevel (too grippy or else) , I will try to first only change the tip and tail to 1° and see!

post #107 of 113
sure mogsie. increasing near tip and tail helps lessen the chances of the tips "hooking up" suddenly in the top of the turn and also helps the tails release while at the same time mainting an agressive base bevel for most of the ski.

jacques, you are correct that this is reserved for more of a traditional carver or race ski which is why i also mentioned the option of increasing base bevel and side bevel. yup, dave peszek's method is what i patterned mine after wink.gif

zenny
post #108 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

The base started off at 1, but I had it professionally tuned at a ski shop and asked told them to put a 0.5 on it.  I was a little disappointed with the results of the professional tune.  So shortly thereafter, it was easy to make the decision to tune it myself.  The base at that point was not 0.5; it had either worn very quickly or it had been tuned to a greater angle.  If you want something done right do it yourself. Now if I could only find a $50 base grinding machine.

 

I don't mind the high base so much; they are SL skis, so they don't spend a lot of time flat.

I just noticed you are located in Ontario.  I didn't notice before because on my mobile, I don't see any user locations.

 

Anyways, I have to ask - which shop and location performed this tune that you were unhappy with?  I ask this, even with the risk that it may be the organiziation I work for, or even worse my shop.

 

If you don't want to disclose publicly, then just send me a pm.  I'd love to put a nice grind on them sl's for ya, and set your base edge properly.

 

 

I can offer two reasons why you didn't get a .5 b/e from the professional tune -

 

1.  The tuner was inexperienced and/or their method of tuning is whack.

2.  Or the shop intentionally put more bevel on than what was requested.  This happens because a true .5 base edge bevel is not easy to ski.  Generally people that ask for a .5, that have never had a real .5, usually bring the ski back to the shop after tuning, saying it is railed or hard to turn.  A savy tech can sometimes recognize that even though the customer asks for a .5 base edge angle, they should really be skiing on a .7 or 1 degree.

post #109 of 113

Don't worry; the shop was not in Collingwood Ontario.  I don't want to name names, because otherwise the shop has been really good.   

 

I will say that a few years back (more than a few), I got a really good race tune at another shop, Sign of the Skier on Young street in Toronto.

 

Thanks, for the offer, but I think I will ski with the "long bevel" for now (well as soon as the season starts up again).  I tuned all my skis months ago; I just have to remove the wax and go ski :).

post #110 of 113

Cool, ya I saw some tunes come from the Sign a few years ago, and would agree that they did a pretty good job back then.

 

Let me know if you need anything in the future, we are well equipped to handle almost anything including the little stuff like pole tips, afd's etc..:cool

post #111 of 113

So I had a go at it yesterday and ran into a problem. What im trying to do is set my side to 3 and polish up my base to remove small rusty spots and make it shine (base bevel at 1 from factory). To set the side edges to 3 from whatever they were at wasn't a big deal, marked the sides with a black sharpie and went at it with a file. The files wasnt sharp so it took a few goes but eventually got it to that bevel. Finished up with my 2 diamond stones. When I went to touch up my sides, my edges got all gunked up. This grayish gunk appeared on my stones and my edges. I didn't use a marker on the base so its not that. My guess is that its wax thats gunking up the stones in combination with a tiny bit of base material. Anyways what do you guys suggest to do to clean up my stones? Read somewhere that I can use a toothbrush, will try that out but still looking for other solutions. And if it is wax, should I brush my skis well before doing this? I had some storage wax on them and simply scraped them untill nothing came off and then tried to scrape the edges to get bits of wax off of that too but havent brushed because I'm planning to wax the skies after the edges are done.

post #112 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdriv3r View Post
 

So I had a go at it yesterday and ran into a problem. What im trying to do is set my side to 3 and polish up my base to remove small rusty spots and make it shine (base bevel at 1 from factory). To set the side edges to 3 from whatever they were at wasn't a big deal, marked the sides with a black sharpie and went at it with a file. The files wasnt sharp so it took a few goes but eventually got it to that bevel. Finished up with my 2 diamond stones. When I went to touch up my sides, my edges got all gunked up. This grayish gunk appeared on my stones and my edges. I didn't use a marker on the base so its not that. My guess is that its wax thats gunking up the stones in combination with a tiny bit of base material. Anyways what do you guys suggest to do to clean up my stones? Read somewhere that I can use a toothbrush, will try that out but still looking for other solutions. And if it is wax, should I brush my skis well before doing this? I had some storage wax on them and simply scraped them untill nothing came off and then tried to scrape the edges to get bits of wax off of that too but havent brushed because I'm planning to wax the skies after the edges are done.


Use a 50/50 of water and Denatured alcohol.  Put it in a container you can seal, such as a large plastic with lid.  Use a brass brush to clean while in the fluid.  Also I would brush the ski out first, then maybe use some fiber pad at the edges as well.   Here is a link that will start the video where the info you desire is at.   http://youtu.be/aUZQ0isiPIQ?t=2m35s

post #113 of 113
sdriv3r, i also would make sure youve trimmed the sidewall material above the edges. not doing this sufficiently can make filing difficult and gunk up your files and stones as well....

zenny
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