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What is dynamic skiing? - Page 6  

post #151 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post

This has been an interesting read as New Years Day draws to an end. The season here in Utah has also been interesting given that snow conditions have confined the holiday masses to groomed slopes and man-made snow - read green and blue groomers. I have skied every day from Nov 19 until today and observed many thousands of skiers (as, indeed, I have for many past years). Among the masses, perhaps one in 500 skiers can make consistent carved turns on any sort of terrain. It is not an intermediate skill if numbers have any meaning at all. Even among participants in our masters' race program (all of whom would be classified as advanced skiers) the acquisition of precise carving skills takes substantial coaching and practice. The notion that intermediates can carve black slopes at low edge angles is laughable, as anyone who knows the first thing about the speeds such an attempt would generate could easily attest.



Uhh...fail.  Plenty of carving going on in UT.  Trust me on this one.

 

Plus, your last sentence is another interesting and blatant attempt at distorting what was said.  People can go back and read if they're curious on this point, and want to waste some time. 

 

 

post #152 of 161

Racers consider a smooth black groomer to be "mellow".

 

post #153 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post


One aspect of a cult is a persistent distortion of reality.  Noodler, another of your group, had talked smack, so I gave a little back to him, and fairly, as the linked thread shows.  In terms of behavior, if you guys come on in a concerted fashion and distort, talk smack, and generally don't respect the sport, you should be able to tolerate a little pushback without whining incessantly over it.

 

If you guys skied better, you might not even feel the need to talk all that smack.  Pull back on that.  It's not lost on me that among other exchanges with your crew, I gave advice to one now-banned member on where he could ski steeps -- a very dynamic environment -- and then so far as anyone, including the guides I referred him to, can tell, never showed up for the dance.  It's good to know limits, for sure, but if you have such limits, better not to talk quite that much junk, and to have more respect for others.



You have an interesting definition of "fair", considering that your attack on Noodler includes the same distortion of the record I debunked upthread.

 

That said, I'm not a member of any "crew" or operating in concert with any group in my posts here.  You'll notice I even explicitly disclaim any expertise related to skiing (scroll up--it's in this thread, even!), and don't tell people who ski better than I do that they're doing it wrong.  Given how much animosity you seem to have towards "smack" and "spray" from people I've never met and probably never talked to, I'd think you'd find that to be a refreshing approach.

 

I'm further unsure of why I should care about some challenge you issued to some unidentified person to ski steeps with some other unidentified people you know.  This sounds a bit like the internet version of "my friend could kick your ass!", but you didn't provide enough info for me to google up that exchange and figure out what you're talking about.

 

My off-topic posts in this thread are exclusively because it annoys me to see people distort the record in an attempt to make a point.  I firmly believe that any point worth making can be backed up by facts and/or an accurate version of history.  Distortions only serve to further a smear campaign, and aren't useful for civil discussion.

 

It seems we're in agreement that this is the place intermediates should go to get attacked and ridiculed, though.  How about you post up that video now and continue the technical conversation, since we seem to agree that your fears of an intermediate being ridiculed elsewhere are misplaced?

post #154 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post



Uhh...fail.  Plenty of carving going on in UT.  Trust me on this one.

 

Plus, your last sentence is another interesting and blatant attempt at distorting what was said.  People can go back and read if they're curious on this point, and want to waste some time. 

 

 



Yeah, it's my poor old eyes failing me again, but don't be concerned, I'll trust the assertion of someone on the internet over the evidence of my own senses. One in 500 among the skiing unwashed is charitable too - as true at Snowbird and Alta as at PCMR by the way. Have a great season.

 

post #155 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post

Racers consider a smooth black groomer to be "mellow".

 

 

Let's see if we can establish a base of common understanding.


In the grand scheme of things, doesn't everyone posting in this thread consider any trail you can winch a groomer up to be "mellow"?  Surely you can ski it in a non-mellow fashion (google video of the Kitzbühel downhill for reference), but the trail itself isn't forcing that.  That's why groomers are so great for learning how to ski.  They give you a sanitized experience where you can focus on learning technique without having to constantly focus on absorbing terrain irregularities.  As you improve, you can focus on skiing those "mellow" trails in a less mellow fashion.  Personally, I love skiing twisty, narrow New England trails at high speeds.  Carving those guys at mach schnell feels like driving a fast car on a twisty road.  It's fun, and there's real risk of injury if you blow a turn and fly off into the woods.  Cannon has fatalities pretty much every year from stuff like this.  Trail: mellow.  Skiing: not as much.  I think this is a useful differentiation.

 

I think there's some entrenchment on both sides of this debate that isn't helping things.  In one camp, we've got people who mostly video groomer practice to aid training, and put this video up for MA from people they respect.  Some of it shows very good skiing.  The conditions are necessarily "mellow" as defined above, because it's TRAINING video.  Most of these folks are serious students of the sport, and are very interested in the technical quality of their skiing.  They're focused on the movements in the skiing, not the terrain.  They probably don't qualify enough that the video they're posting is training video, and not their idea of a super-gnar fun day.  It would also probably help if they used more phrases like "Well, I don't personally aspire to ski like that, but it seems to work fine for him.." rather than tearing down others who haven't asked for their advice.  If the purpose of the thread is to share opinions then cool, share what you think, of course.

 

In the other camp, we've got people who seem to disregard the quality of any skiing on groomers, since the environment is so "mellow".  They back this up with references to the zillions of people who can more or less make their way down groomers but are hopeless in anything else.  While this is common in the skier population at large, many of the folks in the preceding paragraph are following an approach that doesn't seem to break down this way, from what I've seen of it.  Beyond that, I'm unsure of why a teaching methodology that emphasizes structured training and regular practice on terrain suited for it would be seen as such a bad thing.  I'd think the instructors especially would love the idea of an approach suggesting you need to actually put effort into your skiing in order to be good at it.  It seems they could get a lot more lessons and more dedicated students out of it, which would seem a welcome change from the "one and done" they seem to dislike so much.  In any case, I think these folks would do well to look at the skiing in the video they watch, rather than focusing so much on the terrain.  Remember--this is training video, not a TGR-style gopro trip report.  Ski academies seem to do okay with training video on groomers, at least enough to get their people winning major international competitions, so clearly there's something that works okay with this approach.

 

Any possibility of getting some buy-in from folks on both sides here?

post #156 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoisvert View Post

... Beyond that, I'm unsure of why a teaching methodology that emphasizes structured training and regular practice on terrain suited for it would be seen as such a bad thing. ..


That is not a bad thing.  The thread co-option that has happened here, part of a broader pattern of behavior, the ridicule threads that show a lack of understanding and respect for others in the sport, including also current and former USST members and well-respected coaches, and the rest of it are the problem.

 

In terms of dynamic skiing, let me note that there are some very highly regarded coaches who have ski-film credits, including lots of very steep and other challenging terrain, who don't have a lot of technical distance from your crew, but aren't into the us versus them. 

 

But, you know the saying that you are who you drink coffee with?  If you are part of a pattern of posting that involves posting in concert, promoting members of an insular group as model to follow in a very out of context way, active ridicule of others like that displayed by Noodler in the thread you linked, and elitist statements like your group repeatedly makes about being better than the vast majority of skiers on the slopes -- the old 97% standard, echoed more recently by others -- that don't hold up in person, then you are part of the problem.

 

This was a thread about dynamic skiing, that became a thread about your group because of that pattern of posting.  It also became a thread full of rampant distortion and misinformation that ignores the last 20 years or so of ski history.

 

Imagine that some rail kid had posted on here and said that one of his bros, HeluvaJibber, showed great dynamic balance and that anyone posting on this thread should be at least as good on rails to be viewed as having a good baseline understanding of the sport?  And that this jib-crew kept on derailing thread after thread -- but in the real world weren't exactly taking home the cash at even local rail jams, and didn't actually have the insight into rails they thought they had?  It's cool to be an enthusiastic, mediocre jibber.  It's not cool to be a disruptive, distortive influence on a repetitive basis. 
 

 

post #157 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by JibBRah View Post

Dynamic skiing is an outcome.  It is the outcome of getting maximum ollie performance out of the skis.  Look at HeluvaJibber's avatar of him on a 3-step for a shot of what jibbing looks like in the 21st century.  BTW, the 50-50 railslide that Heluva is demonstrating is a very good baseline for assessing skiing understanding.  Anyone who is worth listening to should be able to make at least an identical railslide.



There's the problem.  And, railslides are pretty dynamic.

 

post #158 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post



Yeah, it's my poor old eyes failing me again, but don't be concerned, I'll trust the assertion of someone on the internet over the evidence of my own senses. One in 500 among the skiing unwashed is charitable too [emphasis added] - as true at Snowbird and Alta as at PCMR by the way. Have a great season.

 


Seems like you're better than at least 99.8% of the skiers out there, bro!  97% really is 2008 by now, I guess.
 

 

post #159 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

That is not a bad thing.  The thread co-option that has happened here, part of a broader pattern of behavior, the ridicule threads that show a lack of understanding and respect for others in the sport, including also current and former USST members and well-respected coaches, and the rest of it are the problem.

 

In terms of dynamic skiing, let me note that there are some very highly regarded coaches who have ski-film credits, including lots of very steep and other challenging terrain, who don't have a lot of technical distance from your crew, but aren't into the us versus them. 

 

But, you know the saying that you are who you drink coffee with?  If you are part of a pattern of posting that involves posting in concert, promoting members of an insular group as model to follow in a very out of context way, active ridicule of others like that displayed by Noodler in the thread you linked, and elitist statements like your group repeatedly makes about being better than the vast majority of skiers on the slopes -- the old 97% standard, echoed more recently by others -- that don't hold up in person, then you are part of the problem.

 

This was a thread about dynamic skiing, that became a thread about your group because of that pattern of posting.  It also became a thread full of rampant distortion and misinformation that ignores the last 20 years or so of ski history.

 

Imagine that some rail kid had posted on here and said that one of his bros, HeluvaJibber, showed great dynamic balance and that anyone posting on this thread should be at least as good on rails to be viewed as having a good baseline understanding of the sport?  And that this jib-crew kept on derailing thread after thread -- but in the real world weren't exactly taking home the cash at even local rail jams, and didn't actually have the insight into rails they thought they had?  It's cool to be an enthusiastic, mediocre jibber.  It's not cool to be a disruptive, distortive influence on a repetitive basis.

 

If your problem is the behavior, why spend so much energy attacking the methodology and telling everyone how much their ideas suck?  Doubly so if, as you suggest, the highly-regarded coaches you mention don't have a lot of technical distance from it?  Why not focus on the part with which you actually have a problem?  I don't have any children, but I've heard rumor it's possible to toss bathwater out without tossing the baby, as well.

 

You seem to be trying to paint me into a corner where I'm guilty of sins committed by a bunch of people I've never met, skied with, had coffee with, or talked to in any way, shape, or form, just because I might be pursuing a similar technical path in learning how to ski.  In case you hadn't noticed, I'm trying to get rid of the us vs them stuff.  I don't like it, either.  I refuse to accept your assertion that I'm part of the problem, when in fact I'm attempting to get rid of it.

 

Your example about a jibber is a bit of a canard, though I can see how you'd feel it's similar if you disagree with the methodology involved entirely.  I've never seen anyone suggest rail slides were the basis of solid all-mountain skiing.  The methodology that your highly-regarded coaches aren't that technically far from says outright that the movements learned in good carving are the basis of solid all-mountain skiing.  You might not agree but, for people who do, those movements are relevant to almost all aspects of skiing.

 

You might think they're nuts, but they're not automatically ill-intentioned.

post #160 of 161

Well, you give me the impression that you are calling geoffda JibBrah by the link you provided. The members you mentioned have long moved on, why continue doing this. let go.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JibBRah View Post

Dynamic skiing is an outcome.  It is the outcome of getting maximum ollie performance out of the skis.  Look at HeluvaJibber's avatar of him on a 3-step for a shot of what jibbing looks like in the 21st century.  BTW, the 50-50 railslide that Heluva is demonstrating is a very good baseline for assessing skiing understanding.  Anyone who is worth listening to should be able to make at least an identical railslide.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post



There's the problem.  And, railslides are pretty dynamic.

 



 

post #161 of 161

Letting go is hard to do, so I'll lock this and assume we have explored this subject about as far as it is possible to go. 

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