EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Young Athletic Heel-pushers in Denial
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Young Athletic Heel-pushers in Denial - Page 4

post #91 of 101

Isn't your heel pusher pivoting closer to the ski tips in order to toss their tails out to the side and move the feet from one side to the other underneath the hips rather than moving the hips over the feet?  

 

Seems like similar issues to the ab-stemmer? 

Rotary push-off?

 

Isn't the goal of a good turn to release the downhill ski's edge grip to permit the tips to seek the fall line as the hips move over the feet?

 

 

I could be wrong because many times I am?

post #92 of 101

its kind of silly to argue about whether one thing should be called heel pushing or not.  What is productive is to acknowledge seperate problems with seperate cures.  I personally don't see the value of labeling ab stemmers are heel pushers because the other kind I speak of is so entirely different and is more like a push really, but use whatever terms you like, just please acknowledge the seperate cases and cures.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Isn't your heel pusher pivoting closer to the ski tips in order to toss their tails out to the side and move the feet from one side to the other underneath the hips rather than moving the hips over the feet?  

 

well, the heel pusher's skis are pivoting around a point near the tips yes, but the skier is not pivoting them, he is pushing them.  In the way you seemed to use the word above I think you are refering to active rotary with the femurs, which would pivot the skis like a bow tie under their feet.  If the tails swish over like windshield wipers and the feet go with them, then that is something else. 
 

 

 

Quote:

Seems like similar issues to the ab-stemmer? 

Rotary push-off?


Definitely different then an ab stem move.  Let me try to explain again.  

 

In an ab stem, the skier ends up the previous turn braced on their downhill ski.  They usually do this because they are afraid or don't know how to let it go in a release.  Once they have squandered away their turn forces from the previous turn they are faced with a challenge of how to start the next turn.  At that point there are two ways.  One way is to actually release it anyway, very slowly and carefully with a GREAT deal of balance involved.  As they release it and remain balanced and patiently wait for their skis to either steer or tip and carve into the fall line.  That way requires a lot of patience and balance.

 

The other way is to push off of the downhill ski, hence the ab stem.  The uphill ski appears to stem away from it...but its not being pushed per say, its being flung that way.  The push is on the downhill ski in order to stem the uphill ski, and the downhill ski will probably not skid away either...it will be edged hard and be pushed against.

 

That is the ab stem case,

 

Now let's take the other case that *I* call heel pushing.  In this case the skier released perfectly well coming out of the previous turn.  Their downhill ski is tipped onto the LTE as they go into the next turn.  There is no downhill ski to push off of.  They can tactically decide to steer or carve from here (or both).  If they glide forward with the skis, developing bend and steering angle patiently, then the skis will carve and/or steer a bit in a round and refined way.  The heel pusher will extend too aggressively and push the tails away into a fanned out skid.  A heel pusher could also be using upper rotary there to swing the tails around, but they will find themselves pushing their feet out trying to create pressure on the ski prematurely in the wrong way, trying to get to the fall-line or past it too soon, etc.

 

Do you see the difference?

 

The ab stemmer is late.  They are too busy holding on to the last turn to be on top of the next one.  The heel pusher is, on the other hand, impatient, in a rush to get to the fallline.

 

 

Quote:

Isn't the goal of a good turn to release the downhill ski's edge grip to permit the tips to seek the fall line as the hips move over the feet?

 

yes steering and/or tip and arc or both.  That is a tactical decision.  But even with a good release you can push the heels.  A good release does not garantee a good turn.  A bad release garantees a bad turn.

post #93 of 101

I will leave you to your beliefs and understandings B2ski as I am not interested in arguing or trying to change your thinking.  Have a great season!

post #94 of 101

and you as well!...just as soon as it will frickin snow!snowfalling.gif

post #95 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post



In an accurately steered/blended turn, I'd expect to see the rotation more from the middle of the foot than focused at the tip.



Would a more flexible boot allow more tip-focused sloppiness?

post #96 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post


LiveJazz,
It is worth noting that converging skis are not necessarily bad!
When you try the Patience turn Nolo suggests a spontaneous wedge is likely to occur when you actively steer both skis into the turn as Epic describes. This will result as the up hill ski turns faster than the downhill ski into the new turn vs the outside skiing being pushed out.


Did anyone mention the "lift and tilt" exercise yet? 

 

From a standstill with skis across the hill standing in a balanced, flexed position, plant the pole well downhill. 

Lift and tilt the new inside ski to initiate the turn. 

Ride the turn on the outside ski in an arc just until you're slightly uphill. 

Repeat on other side.

Eventually, start linking them together. (yes, it's also been called the phantom move.)

post #97 of 101

 

I'm going to go in a different direction here. While I see a lot of heel pushing at the school I work at and I agree that a lot of the drills mentioned here would work so for, most "heel-pushers" don't seem to care how they're skiing looks to us and getting them into a clinic, well, it would be easier to teach an elephant to ski. Here's the problem I see. I do a lot of clinics. We are not adapting to the modern skier with these drills. Try this out. See if you can get young heel-pusher to go for a couple runs and then session a few things. Ski switch. Do switch railroad tracks. Try backside pivot slips. Don't treat it as you are pro, they are not. Turn it into a session lesson. Let them and the skiing provide the feedback. Show that clinics can be fun, experiential and informative. Hey, try it in your everyday teaching. Can't heel push going backwards and if the "clinic" is fun maybe they try some others.

post #98 of 101

//

 

<_<   >_>   <_<

 

/\

\\

post #99 of 101
Is that directed at me since you quoted my post from page one, Metaphor?

When I have seen what you describe demonstrated, it has been shown to start with a blocking pole plant and end with counter-rotation and a heel-push. So, I wouldn't choose that as a default movement pattern to train over the independant leg steering discussed previously.
post #100 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post



Would a more flexible boot allow more tip-focused sloppiness?



I don't know. As a sample of one, I can tell you that I was more tip-focused when I was in a softer boot with more forward-lean.

post #101 of 101

Think about it!  A softer flexing boot on a stiffer ski is a difficult combination as the skier must move much farther into the flex to transfer the same impulse as a stiffer boot could do in much less range.  It is the resistance to flex that transfers energy to the fore-body of the ski.  Conversely, a really stiff boot on a very soft ski could be equally as challenging in that any slight movement forward in the boot could cause the ski to overreact. 

 

A boot with excessive forward lean makes it difficult to transmit energy to the shovel of the ski at all because most people would max out their range of motion before sufficient pressure was transferred to the shovel and would tend to ski off the rear spoiler instead and use lateral movements to engage the ski's sidecut instead.

 

This is why matching a boot flex appropriate for the skis being used is important as well as proper sagittal alignment of the boot and binding angles.

 

 

Hey Nateteachski,   GREAT FIRST POST!  Welcome to Epicski!

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Young Athletic Heel-pushers in Denial