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People are scaring me. - Page 4

post #91 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post


Seems like it's easier to snowboard poorly than it is to ski poorly and harder to snowboard well than to ski well. 

So you're saying that bad snowboarders have at least as hard a time on advanced runs as bad skiers? 

 

 

No, I'm saying it's easier to ski poorly than it is to snowboard poorly (i.e., the snowboarding learning curve is steeper so one gets past the beginner stage more rapidly)

 

AND

 

it's harder to ski well than snowboard well (i.e., it's harder to get really good at skiing).

 

 

post #92 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post


Yes the lack of respect does seem to be much worse among today's youth.  It starts in their childhood, and the more folks undeserving of respect they are exposed to, including TV shows, movies and well-reported news, the less respect they have.  This growing lack of respect is a problem, that has been going on at least since the dawn of western civilization, but I think todays media and entertainment exacerbate the problem.

 


It's not just youth.  It's also middle-aged men between 45 and 65.  something happens to guys in that age bracket where they become real selfish dickheads, then they mellow out again as they age past that.

 

post #93 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post



Boards can push more snow, that's my only beef. Skiers can't skid down powder, but boarders can. Bad skiers fall over if they try that. So they traverse, which causes less damage. Bad boarders can clear a powder field tout de suite.  --Of course, I guess it's getting  a bit different with fat rockered boards, but I have never seen a skier do the damage to fresh snow that a boarder can do. On groomers, yes, it's the same. Whatever.

 

 

It's interesting that you call it "damage."  It's snow, it's going to change no matter what.  It's not as if it gets broken.  One should go in expecting that it will change from run to run.  No one's going to wait for you to get in all you can before they enjoy it.
 
What's the ratio of skiers to snowboarders?  3:1?  4:1?  I'd rather have one snowboarder pushing a 5' wide swath straight down one run than four skiers cutting zipperlines from shoulder to shoulder across the entire run, because at least there would be an alley of untracked snow for me to hit.  

 

I get the impression that a lot of people here, if they looked at a run and saw fifty skiers and one snowboarder, they would still feel ire towards the one snowboarder. "He's messing up the snow, grrrrr!"

post #94 of 277

How to learn respect...........Here's the answer.

6a00d8342f7fff53ef00e55261a30b8834-320pi

post #95 of 277

back in the early 80's the forest service was looking into an issue known as "skier density", with new chair designs called "detachable"  being proposed for ski areas. Personally I believe that this is the largest factor in the skier safety issue on the slope. We have no lift lines anymore and the high speed chairs dump huge numbers of people on the hill. You can lap the Pine Marten chair at Bach in about 8 minutes, and that is with carving turns top to bottom. While we enjoy our short times on the lift we pay a price of more people (and higher lift prices, 4 million plus more maintenance for a dopple versus 500,000 for a fixed grip riblet) on the trails.

 

I agree that is is my responsibility to miss the person on the slope who does some stupid move, as I am usually approaching from above, and in theory am a good enough skier to miss them. Board or ski, no difference as far as the responsibility code is concerned. Basically I am responsible for my actions, easy to blame others but anyone can take that path.

 

(P.S. as of last Sunday off groom at Bach was as good if not better than the groomed as far as rocks go, just look ahead and plan your line.)

post #96 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post


Beginning boarders scrape a big swath of snow.  Beginning skiers do the same with their "pizza" stance.

 

Advanced boarders cut a clean line, just like advanced skiers.

 



Perhaps its different out there in Oregon (where I'll actually be skiing for the first time next month), but here I very rarely see skiers do pizzas down in the aforementioned bad spots on tougher runs (mainly black).  Its the snowboarders who 'work' their way down runs they have no business being on ('work' meaning ride, fall, ride, fall, etc.) and absolutely ruin what little good snow we have most days.  I do see the occasional skier out of their element, but most of those are going really slow back and forth across the trail and causing little damage, whereas I see far more boarders skiing blacks when they should be on greens and easy blues scraping out the snow as they work their way down, all while often stopping/resting in the absolute worst spots to be doing so.

 

By the way, looking at some of your posts, you certainly are the argumentative type.  You've argued with an array of people on all sorts of topics lately, basically with an attitude that they're wrong and you're right, regardless of the subject at hand. 

post #97 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cville4 View Post



Perhaps its different out there in Oregon (where I'll actually be skiing for the first time next month), but here I very rarely see skiers do pizzas down in the aforementioned bad spots on tougher runs (mainly black).  Its the snowboarders who 'work' their way down runs they have no business being on ('work' meaning ride, fall, ride, fall, etc.) and absolutely ruin what little good snow we have most days.  I do see the occasional skier out of their element, but most of those are going really slow back and forth across the trail and causing little damage, whereas I see far more boarders skiing blacks when they should be on greens and easy blues scraping out the snow as they work their way down, all while often stopping/resting in the absolute worst spots to be doing so.

 

By the way, looking at some of your posts, you certainly are the argumentative type.  You've argued with an array of people on all sorts of topics lately, basically with an attitude that they're wrong and you're right, regardless of the subject at hand. 


IT'S NOT F'ING DAMAGE!!!  Jesus, the snow does not belong to you!!!  The sooner you understand that concept the sooner you'll be at ease with sharing.

 

Yes, I'm argumentative.  There, I agreed with you.  When I think you're wrong, ignorant or being stupid I will let you know unequivocally.  Take it.

 

By the way, there are a lot of snowboarders here in Oregon so when you come visit be prepared to share.

post #98 of 277


I found your thought process here a real gem wikked1.  Similar in result to hearing your voice for the first time off of a recording...for some a change in perception of "self".  I'm behind your "video replay" concept...perhaps a first run requirement as part of the second lift up the hill icon14.gif biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikked1 View Post

I got a kick out of this thread,but it reminded me of something similar. When we all have t to share or occupy the same space we get to see just how "unequipped" some of our fellow human beings really are.  It's almost like driving,I think I'm just grateful most of these guys can't figure out a way to text and board or ski. hopmad.gif

I think the real problem is that people never get to see themselves on skis ,so in their mind's eyes they are just a couple training runs away from being the next Bodi Miller.

Maybe resorts should offer a video replay booth at the bottom of the hill like they do at amusement parks ? 



 

 

post #99 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikked1 View Post

I got a kick out of this thread,but it reminded me of something similar. When we all have t to share or occupy the same space we get to see just how "unequipped" some of our fellow human beings really are.  It's almost like driving,I think I'm just grateful most of these guys can't figure out a way to text and board or ski. hopmad.gif

I think the real problem is that people never get to see themselves on skis ,so in their mind's eyes they are just a couple training runs away from being the next Bodi Miller.

Maybe resorts should offer a video replay booth at the bottom of the hill like they do at amusement parks ? 



I agree.  This idea should get passed along to VR.  They should be all over something like this.

 

post #100 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by skejunky View Post

(P.S. as of last Sunday off groom at Bach was as good if not better than the groomed as far as rocks go, just look ahead and plan your line.)

 

Good to know.  It should get even better (at least a little bit) starting tonight.  
 

 

post #101 of 277


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skejunky View Post

back in the early 80's the forest service was looking into an issue known as "skier density", with new chair designs called "detachable"  being proposed for ski areas. Personally I believe that this is the largest factor in the skier safety issue on the slope. We have no lift lines anymore and the high speed chairs dump huge numbers of people on the hill. You can lap the Pine Marten chair at Bach in about 8 minutes, and that is with carving turns top to bottom. While we enjoy our short times on the lift we pay a price of more people (and higher lift prices, 4 million plus more maintenance for a dopple versus 500,000 for a fixed grip riblet) on the trails.

 

At capacity, detachable chairs offload the same number of skiers as a non-detachable chair if they have the same uphill capacity/hour.  (When it is less crowded, high-speed lifts do put marginally more people on the hill at any given time.)  If you compare a 'slow' and 'fast' quad on a busy day, on the 'fast' lift you spend more time standing in line, and on the 'slow' lift you spend more time sitting in a chair going uphill, but your laps take the same amount of time.

 

However, many mountains have replaced aging doubles or triples with quads, or old quads with new six-packs.  That does increase traffic when there are enough riders to fill the newer lifts.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Yes the lack of respect does seem to be much worse among today's youth.  It starts in their childhood, and the more folks undeserving of respect they are exposed to, including TV shows, movies and well-reported news, the less respect they have.  This growing lack of respect is a problem, that has been going on at least since the dawn of western civilization, but I think todays media and entertainment exacerbate the problem.

 

 

This is hardly a new phenomenon.  "Today's" kids are always the worst ever:

 

Quote:
The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of
today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for
parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as
if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is
foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.

 

Peter the Hermit, 1274 A.D.

 

 

Quote:
I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint...

 

Hesiod, 8th Century B.C.

 

 

Quote:
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

 

Socrates (at least according to Plato, maybe -- this translation apparently takes a lot of liberties with the original text)

 

I'm sure if something like Epic was around 30 years ago, you would have seen exactly the same complaints about those 'hot-dogging' youngsters ruining the sport.

 

Maybe we need a 'get off my lawn!' emoticon. rolleyes.gif

post #102 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post


 

 

At capacity, detachable chairs offload the same number of skiers as a non-detachable chair if they have the same uphill capacity/hour.  (When it is less crowded, high-speed lifts do put marginally more people on the hill at any given time.)  If you compare a 'slow' and 'fast' quad on a busy day, on the 'fast' lift you spend more time standing in line, and on the 'slow' lift you spend more time sitting in a chair going uphill, but your laps take the same amount of time.

 

However, many mountains have replaced aging doubles or triples with quads, or old quads with new six-packs.  That does increase traffic when there are enough riders to fill the newer lifts.

 

 

 

 

This is hardly a new phenomenon.  "Today's" kids are always the worst ever:

 

 

Peter the Hermit, 1274 A.D.

 

 

 

Hesiod, 8th Century B.C.

 

 

 

Socrates (at least according to Plato, maybe -- this translation apparently takes a lot of liberties with the original text)

 

I'm sure if something like Epic was around 30 years ago, you would have seen exactly the same complaints about those 'hot-dogging' youngsters ruining the sport.

 

Maybe we need a 'get off my lawn!' emoticon. rolleyes.gif

 

 

Awesome post!  Well done.

 

 

post #103 of 277
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post

Maybe we need a 'get off my lawn!' emoticon. rolleyes.gif



Haha!! I almost shot some coffee out of my nose. biggrin.gif

post #104 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 It's like driving home during a rush hour commute.  


I'd say that's a false analogy, since most rush hour commutes are bumper-to-bumper traffic moving along at a snail's pace. A more accurate analogy would be comparing early season WROD skiing to either Frogger (i.e. you being the frog and everybody who is out of control being the cars, trucks, and rabid turtles) or driving on the Autobahn.

 

As a kids ski instructor, I am acutely aware of out-of-control folks on the hill, which is why I stress skiing in the margins (left or right side of every run) and hyper-awareness of those around you. I fully understand the thrill of skiing fast, but as has been stated prior, too many folks out there who shouldn't even be on the bunny slopes, let alone the harder runs on the mountains, are skiing way beyond their skill set and control level. I chock it up to a lack of understanding of the Responsibility Code and perhaps even a lack of proper instruction/training/education (i.e. if you are a self-taught skier who has never taken a lesson in their life the chances of knowing the RC, let alone practicing it, are pretty slim). I'm not saying that everybody needs to take a lesson, but by bypassing that step many folks are wholly unaware of the rules/regulations/safety etiquette of skiing.

 

Now that I think about it, skiing is one of the few activities with serious consequences that doesn't require participants to take a class and pass a certification before indulging in it (i.e. like driving or SCUBA diving, where you have to get certified/licensed before doing the activity). I know requiring such a thing would be met with criticism, but it's food for thought.

 

Also, skiing is exciting and nobody wants to be confined to the beginner/bunny slope all day, so you get folks who rush to be on the intermediate and advanced runs because they don't want to be stigmatized (or embarrassed) being on the beginner slopes. I experience this with kids every day. They are barely making it down the magic carpet runs, but they see the chair lifts and want to be on them. People always want more and sadly, especially when it comes to older skiers (teens, young adults, adults) they often move themselves onto terrain way out of their league way before they should. If more folks would be honest about their limitations we'd probably have a lot less out-of-control folks on the hill (but that's probably never gonna happen).

 

Changing the unsafe habits of others is tough, so it's doubly important for you, as an experienced skier, to make sure that you're skiing safely and in control and that you are hyper-aware of others around you. Unlike driving, I find that you have to ski simultaneously offensively and defensively and expressly be aware of folks who have no clue. 

 

post #105 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post

 

Now that I think about it, skiing is one of the few activities with serious consequences that doesn't require participants to take a class and pass a certification before indulging in it (i.e. like driving or SCUBA diving, where you have to get certified/licensed before doing the activity). I know requiring such a thing would be met with criticism, but it's food for thought.

 

 

One word. Parenting.

 

 

post #106 of 277

Testosterone and Serotonin levels are both falling off, how is that going to turn out well?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post


It's not just youth.  It's also middle-aged men between 45 and 65.  something happens to guys in that age bracket where they become real selfish dickheads, then they mellow out again as they age past that.

 



 

post #107 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by skejunky View Post

I agree that is is my responsibility to miss the person on the slope who does some stupid move...

 

I hate those old farts who rapidly zig and zag back and forth as though they can't decide where they want to go. It's like they're trying to find the slowest line and ski it as fast as they can!
 

 

post #108 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

 

No, I'm saying it's easier to ski poorly than it is to snowboard poorly (i.e., the snowboarding learning curve is steeper so one gets past the beginner stage more rapidly)

 

AND

 

it's harder to ski well than snowboard well (i.e., it's harder to get really good at skiing).

 

 



Then you misunderstood me...I'm not talking about the learning curve, I'm talking about the ability to navigate a slope at each level. 

 

post #109 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post



Then you misunderstood me...I'm not talking about the learning curve, I'm talking about the ability to navigate a slope at each level. 

 


Toeside turns aren't part of the development of most snowboarders, much less linked carved turns. Thats cool if you dig carving, but don't force your bias on the rest of us.

 

post #110 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post



Then you misunderstood me...I'm not talking about the learning curve, I'm talking about the ability to navigate a slope at each level. 

 



Okay.  Work on being more clear in your writing from now on.

post #111 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post


Toeside turns aren't part of the development of most snowboarders, much less linked carved turns. Thats cool if you dig carving, but don't force your bias on the rest of us.

 



I think you misunderstood me, I'm not talking about linking carved turns, I'm talking about the ability to navigate a slope at each level.   I guess Toecutter is right... I need to be more clear in my writing.

post #112 of 277

This thread has all sorts of radness.

post #113 of 277

You have to follow my enhanced slope difficulty that's all :)  I went to Keystone on opening day and it was total mayhem.  Not only was the single blue crowded to the point of being dangerous the green they had open was just as bad.  If they could not stop they would run into the line at the lift..   Breck has gotten better as there is a lot of terrain to spread people out over.

 

 

skiing-difficulties.jpg

post #114 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

 

 

 
What's the ratio of skiers to snowboarders?  3:1?  4:1?  I'd rather have one snowboarder pushing a 5' wide swath straight down one run than four skiers cutting zipperlines from shoulder to shoulder across the entire run, because at least there would be an alley of untracked snow for me to hit.  

 



Obviously we disagree -- which is fine, I'm not going to waste my time with it, except to say that your scenario doesn't compute. The overall worldwide ratio of skiers to boarders has no bearing on the number of skiers and/or boarders who are in over their heads on a steep narrow run. And yes, I consider it "damage" when one person can push all the snow to the bottom all by himself.

 

It's not a huge deal, everyone has to learn at some point. (I bet I traversed a powder field once or twice before.) It makes me sad, though. :-)  I just don't agree that you can always equate skidding boards and skidding skis  as you did in that earlier post. So I said so.

post #115 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post



Obviously we disagree -- which is fine, I'm not going to waste my time with it, except to say that your scenario doesn't compute. The overall worldwide ratio of skiers to boarders has no bearing on the number of skiers and/or boarders who are in over their heads on a steep narrow run. And yes, I consider it "damage" when one person can push all the snow to the bottom all by himself.

 

It's not a huge deal, everyone has to learn at some point. (I bet I traversed a powder field once or twice before.) It makes me sad, though. :-)  I just don't agree that you can always equate skidding boards and skidding skis  as you did in that earlier post. So I said so.


Tell me, can someone "break" the snow?  Hating on other people for "damaging" the snow makes about as much sense as hating summer for melting the snow.

 

post #116 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

Hating on other people for "damaging" the snow makes about as much sense as hating summer for melting the snow.

 


Hating the summer for melting the snow, yes .... count me in. And the nice thing is, it doesn't hurt Summer's feelings.

 

post #117 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post


Tell me, can someone "break" the snow?  Hating on other people for "damaging" the snow makes about as much sense as hating summer for melting the snow.

 



Um, there is no hate. I already said, "It's not a huge deal." Would I be happier if riders preserved untracked or soft snow a little longer? Yes.

 

Although, actually, I do hate summer for melting the snow.

post #118 of 277

I'm on the record in this thread defending snowboarders, but I will say they "ruin" a lot of slopes much faster and fewer of them can accomplish that task in a shorter amount of time.  It's all about surface area.  But whatever, it's not that big of a deal.

post #119 of 277

 

Snowboarders have been the most endangered, by me, and the most dangerous to my kids.  In every case, it's been the snowboarder (novice) deciding it was time to arch back, and head up-hill on the slope behind them - the same slope I'm arcing down before hopping onto the cat-track or right into my kids snuffling along.  

 

One particular incident - I was coming off Sam's Alley run at Schweitzer Basin, Idaho, to hit the midway loading point they had - a snowboarder decided to use the hillside to slow down on by just turning uphill towards his blind side, thereby intersecting with my 40 mph arc.  

 

Blam!  I spun around a few times, losing one ski but remaining standing (Salomon 9E 207cm + Salomon 900 Equipe), while this guy was spewing gobs of blood all over the cat-track.  Just GOBS of it.  He was laying on his back, screaming, and freaking everyone out; I slammed the other ski off ran over and saw what he was screaming about.  It turned out he'd nearly bit a quarter of his tongue clean off - it was hanging by just a few thick (thick enough to retain the bitten-off part) pieces.  He got up, regained his bravado and told me to buzz off.  He'd spit an entire mouth full of blood, curse at me, but knew it was his own damn fault.  That part of the cat track was a bright dark cherry red that day.  

 

I didn't run off.  I was prepared to accept responsibility and defend myself from any potential lawsuit.  This happened about 12 years ago, and I'm sure he thinks to this day real hard every time he's about to just turn to his blind-side without looking!!  

 

 

post #120 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post



Um, there is no hate. I already said, "It's not a huge deal." Would I be happier if riders preserved untracked or soft snow a little longer? Yes.

 

Although, actually, I do hate summer for melting the snow.


Why, that doesn't sound at all irrational...

 

 

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