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Discussion of RayCantu blogspot post

post #1 of 66
Thread Starter 

http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/p/chapters-1-to-6.html

 

Hey Ray,

 

Wanted to have a discussion on your blogspot video here since the other thread got side tracked.

 

Some of what you discuss I agree with and some I disagree.  You have isolated forward lean and stiffness from ramp and delta which I believe factor into this discussion so perhaps you have over simplified what is happening.  I agree more forward lean creates a more flexed shorter position and hinders full extension because it would pitch the skier too far forward and therefore losing balance over the tips.  Consequently they would be relegated to never reaching close to full extension and settle with the hips behind their feet.  I believe the same consequences could occur from too steep of a delta angle or too steep of a ramp angle.

 

My use of forward lean cuff adjustment is purely for dorsiflexion consideration in conjunction with ramp angle.  So for a hyper mobile ankle I would perhaps drop the boot board heel a bit and increase the cuff forward lean.  BUT this may cause a knees past the toes situation which would be countered by changing the delta angle to bring the shins more upright yet still maintaining the internal net forward lean I need for the hyper mobile ankle.

 

 

You mentioned a few times in the video about being in a supinated position.  I don't ever think I want to be in or move to a supinated position when my goal is to engage the inside edge?

 

Let's start here and perhaps you can help me understand something I am missing?

post #2 of 66

Skidude makes claims of "full ROM" in a ski boot.  That is simply not true.  There is an absolute limit of how far forward-flexing your leg can go in the boot.  And obviously in the other direction there is also a limit.  So really, there are limitations the boot places on you.

 

Anyway, I think the video's demonstration of the boot stiffness actually argues FOR more forward lean, to get the hips forward.

 

Also, the video assumes that one cannot flex a stiffer boot.

 

 

With regards to having an upright erect body... there are few instances where you would want that skiing.  Especially with the consideration that during a turn, the weight goes from forward to back.

post #3 of 66

Additionally, I would point out (citing laws of physics) that a human leg IN A MORE FORWARD FLEXED POSITION has more leverage on the boot tongue to flex it forward.

 

Imagine being in a boot with a cuff at 90 degrees.... it would be incredibly more challenging to flex it forward than if the forward lean is at 17 degrees.

 

More forward lean puts you in an athletic stance.

 

 

I agree with his assertion that weight should be on BOF... go to gym and try to to squats with heels on the ground... then do them on your balls of feet... the latter will be easier.

post #4 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/p/chapters-1-to-6.html

 

Hey Ray,

 

Wanted to have a discussion on your blogspot video here since the other thread got side tracked.

 

Some of what you discuss I agree with and some I disagree.  You have isolated forward lean and stiffness from ramp and delta which I believe factor into this discussion so perhaps you have over simplified what is happening.  I agree more forward lean creates a more flexed shorter position and hinders full extension because it would pitch the skier too far forward and therefore losing balance over the tips.  Consequently they would be relegated to never reaching close to full extension and settle with the hips behind their feet.  I believe the same consequences could occur from too steep of a delta angle or too steep of a ramp angle.

 

My use of forward lean cuff adjustment is purely for dorsiflexion consideration in conjunction with ramp angle.  So for a hyper mobile ankle I would perhaps drop the boot board heel a bit and increase the cuff forward lean.  BUT this may cause a knees past the toes situation which would be countered by changing the delta angle to bring the shins more upright yet still maintaining the internal net forward lean I need for the hyper mobile ankle.

 

 

You mentioned a few times in the video about being in a supinated position.  I don't ever think I want to be in or move to a supinated position when my goal is to engage the inside edge?

 

Let's start here and perhaps you can help me understand something I am missing?


The bolded was the point.  So you, like me, agree.

 

I think your other points, are "additonal" items to consider.  Not somthing you disagree with.  Ray presented 101, you are now talking 102.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FWIW: When I refer to full ROM I am refering to the full ROM of the BOOT, not ankle.  If the boot is designed/set up to flex through say 20 degrees, then the skier should be able to flex the boot 20 degrees when generating the most pressure they can in a turn.  If they cant do that, the boot is too stiff.

 

post #5 of 66

I would add that when you DO flex the knees in a more upright boot, doing so is just going to drive your hips further back, putting you WAY into the backseat.

 

 

 

Skidude, how can one tell if they are utilizing the full ROM of their boots? (does it require detailed video analysis)?

post #6 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

I would add that when you DO flex the knees in a more upright boot, doing so is just going to drive your hips further back, putting you WAY into the backseat.

 

 

 

 

 

Not if you also flex your ankles.  Further, phases of the turn need to be considered as well, because hips moving back does not necessarily = backseat.  Lots of photo examples on Lemaster's site, or just a quick look on the web.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post


Skidude, how can one tell if they are utilizing the full ROM of their boots? (does it require detailed video analysis)?

 

No, any experienced skilled skier can tell by feel and/or any reasonable coach can tell just by looking.  I for example have the Raptor 150s.  I have played with bolts in the back so I can alter from a 140, 150 or 160.  I find that at 160 my vertical range is limited (vertical range being dictated by what you can move through while maintaining fore/aft balance), I can just feel it.  At 140 my range is great, but the boot doesnt offer the ankle support I need when really cranking GS, I find I get too far forward in the bottom of the turn, so for GS I prefer the more support I get at 150. But it does reduce my vertical range slightly, which is noticable in bumps, but I find it is a trade off I am willing to make.

 

But if you want to get into stupidty, and say the boot can do 20 degrees, and you only flexed 19.8 degrees....well then yes, get a detailed video analysis, and make sure you tape a protractor to your boots! 

post #7 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

At 140 my range is great, but the boot doesnt offer the ankle support I need when really cranking GS, I find I get too far forward in the bottom of the turn, so for GS I prefer the more support I get at 150. But it does reduce my vertical range slightly, which is noticable in bumps, but I find it is a trade off I am willing to make.

 


This is what I found in my 115 boots.. they were too soft when I really got into it.  I like the feeling of being able to really push into the tongue and not have it over flex or weaken.

 

And I suck at bumps to begin with and my 135 boots just make that worse, but I don't care because I really don't ski bumps.

post #8 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

 

 

FWIW: When I refer to full ROM I am refering to the full ROM of the BOOT, not ankle.  If the boot is designed/set up to flex through say 20 degrees, then the skier should be able to flex the boot 20 degrees when generating the most pressure they can in a turn.  If they cant do that, the boot is too stiff.

 


Ahhhh! now we are getting closer to agreeing here!  icon14.gif

 

post #9 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

I would add that when you DO flex the knees in a more upright boot, doing so is just going to drive your hips further back, putting you WAY into the backseat.


 

Not so fast grass hopper!   If you are set up properly, and the hips start over the feet, a good skier can flex an appropriate stiffness boot for them.  Most of our flexion should come from lateral angulation to balance against the forces and adjust edge angle reserving vertical flexion extension for absorbing terrain variations and forces through transition (edge change). 

 

 

In general, I look for the forward angle of the shins to match the spine (parallel planes) in a static stance or straight run and the angle between the femurs and the torso to be equal to the angle between the lower and upper legs.

 

 

post #10 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post


This is what I found in my 115 boots.. they were too soft when I really got into it.  I like the feeling of being able to really push into the tongue and not have it over flex or weaken.

 

And I suck at bumps to begin with and my 135 boots just make that worse, but I don't care because I really don't ski bumps.



Skiing a stiffer boot in bumps takes some practice as we must learn to be more proactive with moving the base of support forward and back in anticipation of the deceleration and acceleration in uneven terrain.  Bob Barne's back pedaling graphic comes to mind.

post #11 of 66



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/p/chapters-1-to-6.html

 

Hey Ray,

 

Wanted to have a discussion on your blogspot video here since the other thread got side tracked.

 

Some of what you discuss I agree with and some I disagree.  You have isolated forward lean and stiffness from ramp and delta which I believe factor into this discussion so perhaps you have over simplified what is happening.  I agree more forward lean creates a more flexed shorter position and hinders full extension because it would pitch the skier too far forward and therefore losing balance over the tips.  Consequently they would be relegated to never reaching close to full extension and settle with the hips behind their feet.  I believe the same consequences could occur from too steep of a delta angle or too steep of a ramp angle.

 

Bud,

I agree that in Chapter 7 we have isolated the ideas of forward lean and stiffness from the other factors that you mentioned ramp and Delta.

I don't know if you've had a chance at all to look at Chapter 9 from about minute 1:30 to 3:50 a lot more of that is covered. Most of Chapter 11 deals with the interrelationship of many of the factors that go into fore and aft balance. If you have a chance to look at that let me know if that clears up the picture or after still some grey areas we should discuss.

 

 

 

My use of forward lean cuff adjustment is purely for dorsiflexion consideration in conjunction with ramp angle.  So for a hyper mobile ankle I would perhaps drop the boot board heel a bit and increase the cuff forward lean.  BUT this may cause a knees past the toes situation which would be countered by changing the delta angle to bring the shins more upright yet still maintaining the internal net forward lean I need for the hyper mobile ankle.

 

 

You mentioned a few times in the video about being in a supinated position.  I don't ever think I want to be in or move to a supinated position when my goal is to engage the inside edge?

 

The position of supination is mentioned because it is the most effective method to maintain pressure on the ball the foot taking advantage of human biomechanics.

The Chapter 3 video titled, How the Body Works,http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/p/chapters-1-to-6_27.html goes into much more detail than I could easily describe here. I realize it may differ from conventional thinking but I believe it is biomechanicaly sound. I look forward to any comments or questions you might have.

 

 

Let's start here and perhaps you can help me understand something I am missing?



 

post #12 of 66

Chapter 7 also seemed to only address the issue on flat ground.  While skiing, the steeper you get, the further back the hips will be to still be centered against the (downward) vector of gravity.  There will be slight variations based on the COM, but still it is much different from flat ground.

 

When I had 11 degree forward lean boots, I found that on the bottom of the hill all the time I would literally start arcing turns on the tails of my skis.  It was just too darn upright.  When I bought boots with 17 degrees of forward lean, this went away.

post #13 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post



 



 



Hi Ray,

 

I am working my way through.  So far looks good. I dont see much that I would consider unconvential so far.  Rather it aligns with solid technqiue as I understand it.

 

A few points thou.

 

Your description of turn phases, does seem a little unique.  Generally 1 is disengage to skis flat, 2 is engage and 3 is as you point out where the loads are greatest just before the COM is realeased.  It is important to understand in the coaching world the turn phases are actually defined by the the turning of the skier...not the skis. This seems fairly universal. 

 

Hence the turn ends when the COM is released, so once the COM is let go, it is by definition phase 1 of the new turn.  Think converging and diverging paths of the COM and BOS.  Once you hit neutral or skis flat, phase one ends and phase two begins as we engage the new edges, this is basically what you refered to as your phase 1...but I and most, would consider phase 2.  The final phase is where the forces are greatest, phase 3, which is defined largely as you put it.  Another way to think of it is the transition to skis flat is phase 1, skis flat to edge is phase 2, as our loads become greatest that is phase 3.  Repeat.

 

Basically phase 1 and 2 would be the transition....and 3 is where the loads are.

 

For those reading also, keep in mind the three phases of the turn are not necessarily 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 or fixed on the arc, they can move. 

 

I really like your explanation of turn intiation.  Text book.  I would really like to here Bud's thoughts on this as well, because I think this is actually what is causing out difference of view on boot stiffness.  If we see applying tip pressure as you point out, by pressing on the ball of the foot and not into the cuff....well, boot flex will be regarded differently.

 

Perhaps I am not far enough throught the videos but you also seem to suggest, that we start the turn on the ball, and should finish there as well?  Conventional wisdom suggests we start turning the skis as you point out, but as the turn progresses and as we roll onto the foot, or pronate we allow our pressure point to move to the arch and finish on the heel.  This assists the ski to disengage from the turn and works with the skis self steering effect.  Thoughts?  Or is this covered in another area?

 

 

post #14 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post



Hi Ray,

 

I am working my way through.  So far looks good. I dont see much that I would consider unconvential so far.  Rather it aligns with solid technqiue as I understand it.

 

A few points thou.

 

Your description of turn phases, does seem a little unique.  Generally 1 is disengage to skis flat, 2 is engage and 3 is as you point out where the loads are greatest just before the COM is realeased.  It is important to understand in the coaching world the turn phases are actually defined by the the turning of the skier...not the skis. This seems fairly universal. 

 

Hence the turn ends when the COM is released, so once the COM is let go, it is by definition phase 1 of the new turn.  Think converging and diverging paths of the COM and BOS.  Once you hit neutral or skis flat, phase one ends and phase two begins as we engage the new edges, this is basically what you refered to as your phase 1...but I and most, would consider phase 2.  The final phase is where the forces are greatest, phase 3, which is defined largely as you put it.  Another way to think of it is the transition to skis flat is phase 1, skis flat to edge is phase 2, as our loads become greatest that is phase 3.  Repeat.

 

Basically phase 1 and 2 would be the transition....and 3 is where the loads are.

 

For those reading also, keep in mind the three phases of the turn are not necessarily 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 or fixed on the arc, they can move. 

 

Skidude,

Thanks for taking the time to explain the way you view the phases of the turn. I have always viewed phase 1 as beginning when the center of mass crosses over and the skis are flat on the snow. This would be the same point in time that I would consider the end of phase 3.

 

I would be curious to hear if there's anyone else that views the phases as I described them in the Chapter 5 video? http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/

 

I have heard of the turn being broken down into two phases the first phase being the acceleration phase into the fall line and the second phase being a decelerating phase out of the fall line which I thought was an interesting way to view the ski turn.

 

 

 

I really like your explanation of turn intiation.  Text book.  I would really like to here Bud's thoughts on this as well, because I think this is actually what is causing out difference of view on boot stiffness.  If we see applying tip pressure as you point out, by pressing on the ball of the foot and not into the cuff....well, boot flex will be regarded differently.

 

Perhaps I am not far enough throught the videos but you also seem to suggest, that we start the turn on the ball, and should finish there as well?  Conventional wisdom suggests we start turning the skis as you point out, but as the turn progresses and as we roll onto the foot, or pronate we allow our pressure point to move to the arch and finish on the heel.  This assists the ski to disengage from the turn and works with the skis self steering effect.  Thoughts?  Or is this covered in another area?

 

 

 

It would be my suggestion that we would start to turn with pressure on the ball foot and once that is established to maintain a pressure through the entire turn maintaining a long strong extended counterd position through the entire turn. The foot would remain in that position which is similar to the position of heel off in the gait cycle. I think in chapter 5 video from minute 5:00 through about a minute 7:10 the idea of maintaining the extended position through the entire turn is explained as well as the use of pronation to release to turn allowing the center of mass to move down the hill and facilitate the movement to the ball of the foot beginning the turn on the new outside foot. Let me know if that clears up my position or if there are any questions or gray areas you still have.



 

post #15 of 66

Thanks for responding.

 

 

I watched the turn phase video again.  Another minor point, (which could be a slip) other wise it is a fairly major one....you refer to phase two being the "acceleration" phase and then said "it is where we gain speed".   It is important to make clear that while we do accelerate and deccelerate in turns.....our speed is (more or less) constant.

 

The accelertion/decceleration we experience in a ski turn is known as centripedial acceleration.  The term "accleration" refers to a change in our velocity.  Velocity has 2 components, speed and direction.  If either changes, so does our velocity, thus by definition we are said to be "acclerating".  (In physics there is not such thing as decelleration...only positive or negative (decelleration) acceleration) .  In skiing we accelerate in a turn not becuase of a change in speed, but because of our change in direction!!!!!!!!

 

I am sure you know that...but for those looking to understand more, here is some links.

 

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/circmot/rht.cfm

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=-G7tjiMNVlc

 

http://video.pbs.org/video/1607925532/

 

http://physics.info/velocity/

 

 

 

 

On your turn phases, I understand what you are saying.  But if we use your descriptions where Phase 1 starts with skis neutral (ie minimum forces) and Phase 3 has maximum forces, then Phase 3 not only has max force....it also must move to a minimum as we flow from 3 to 1.  So phase 3 includes the maximum edge angle and the release.  1 is engage....what does 2 do then?  Anyway just stuff to think about.

post #16 of 66
Thread Starter 

Raycantu,

 

On the topic of supination being strong, I agree and this probably applies to top sprinters in track n field events but in skiing consider this.....

 

There are two movements in the foot and ankle which are biomechanically linked, one can not occur without the other.  When we evert (tip onto an inside edge) the foot it also rotates outward or abducts.  When we invert (tip to little toe edge) the foot it also adducts or rotates inward.  Conversely when we twist our foot inward or adduct it also inverts or tips to the little toe side and when we rotate the foot outward or abduct it also tips to the big toe edge.   Are you with me so far??....   Now when initiating a carved turn entry we "twist n tip"  or in other words our feet tip, one inverts while the other everts and simultaneously the foot that inverts, adducts and the foot that everts, abducts.  You will notice that while the feet tip to the left to turn left the feet actually twist to the right to turn left or more accurately the feet stay straight on the snow and the knees move into the turn leaving the feet behind.  So rather than the feet twisting under the knees the twist occurs from the top down rather than feet up.

 

The point of this mess is that the only foot that moves into supination or more accurately inversion is the new inside foot of the turn rather than the dominantly loaded foot which everts.  This is one reason we do not want to lock the ankles ability to evert in the boots.  I believe to have my foot supinated anywhere in a turn on the load bearing outside ski in very undesirable! 

 

 

I don't have time now but I will certainly watch the rest of your videos as soon as I can.  I have only watch the very first one on forward lean.  Look forward to learning more

 

bud

post #17 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Thanks for responding.

 

 

I watched the turn phase video again.  Another minor point, (which could be a slip) other wise it is a fairly major one....you refer to phase two being the "acceleration" phase and then said "it is where we gain speed".   It is important to make clear that while we do accelerate and deccelerate in turns.....our speed is (more or less) constant.

 

The accelertion/decceleration we experience in a ski turn is known as centripedial acceleration.  The term "accleration" refers to a change in our velocity.  Velocity has 2 components, speed and direction.  If either changes, so does our velocity, thus by definition we are said to be "acclerating".  (In physics there is not such thing as decelleration...only positive or negative (decelleration) acceleration) .  In skiing we accelerate in a turn not becuase of a change in speed, but because of our change in direction!!!!!!!!

 

That is a lot to think about....the point I was attempting to make in a simple way in the Chapter 5 video http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/ from the skiers point of reference was that as they moved from the beginning of the turn (1st phase) into the fall line phase (2nd phase) their speed down the hill would increase (is that the same as an increase in velocity?) and then as the skier moves from the fall line phase (2nd phase) into the 3rd phase they would begin to slow down (negatively accelerate). All the other information you mentioned is assumed in the statement that "the load is highest in the 3rd phase of the turn" when the skier thinks they feel an increase in the non existent centrifugal force (centripedial acceleration).

 

I am sure you know that...but for those looking to understand more, here is some links.

 

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/circmot/rht.cfm

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=-G7tjiMNVlc

 

http://video.pbs.org/video/1607925532/

 

http://physics.info/velocity/

 

 

 

 

On your turn phases, I understand what you are saying.  But if we use your descriptions where Phase 1 starts with skis neutral (ie minimum forces) and Phase 3 has maximum forces, then Phase 3 not only has max force....it also must move to a minimum as we flow from 3 to 1.  So phase 3 includes the maximum edge angle and the release.  1 is engage....what does 2 do then?  Anyway just stuff to think about.

 

Yes, phase 1 starts when the COM moves inside the new arc (crosses the BOS) and phase 3 ends when the COM moves outside the old arc (crosses the BOS) and does not recognise any increase or decrease in centripedial acceleration. Not sure that phase 2 does anything other than connect phase 1 to phase 3. (I guess the Harbites would refer to that as the "park and ride phase") th_dunno-1[1].gif



 


Edited by RayCantu - 12/11/11 at 3:56pm
post #18 of 66



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Raycantu,

 

On the topic of supination being strong, I agree and this probably applies to top sprinters in track n field events but in skiing consider this.....

 

There are two movements in the foot and ankle which are biomechanically linked, one can not occur without the other.  When we evert (tip onto an inside edge) the foot it also rotates outward or abducts.  When we invert (tip to little toe edge) the foot it also adducts or rotates inward.  Conversely when we twist our foot inward or adduct it also inverts or tips to the little toe side and when we rotate the foot outward or abduct it also tips to the big toe edge.  

 

Bud,

The description above describes the movement of the foot and ankle in what would be referred to as an "open chain". As you know that means it describes the movement of the foot when it is not engageing the ground. (hanging in the air) As you will see in Chapter 3 at http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/ the topic is Supination and Pronation in a "closed chain". Both Supination and Pronation describe "triplainer" movements. Supination includes inversion, adduction and plantar flexion and Pronation includes eversion, abduction and dorsi flexion.

The purpose of the video is to describe how these movements can be used to engage the ball the foot and maintain pressure there through the entire turn making best use of what we know about biomechanics.

 

 

Are you with me so far??....   Now when initiating a carved turn entry we "twist n tip"  or in other words our feet tip, one inverts while the other everts and simultaneously the foot that inverts, adducts and the foot that everts, abducts.  You will notice that while the feet tip to the left to turn left the feet actually twist to the right to turn left or more accurately the feet stay straight on the snow and the knees move into the turn leaving the feet behind.  So rather than the feet twisting under the knees the twist occurs from the top down rather than feet up.

 

I am with you so far and agree that you are describing a method that is commonly used to make a ski turn. The video describes an alternative to the "twist n tip" technique you describe. I believe it is a more efficient and effective use of what we know about human biomechanics.

 

 

The point of this mess is that the only foot that moves into supination or more accurately inversion is the new inside foot of the turn rather than the dominantly loaded foot which everts.  This is one reason we do not want to lock the ankles ability to evert in the boots.  I believe to have my foot supinated anywhere in a turn on the load bearing outside ski in very undesirable! 

 

 

I don't have time now but I will certainly watch the rest of your videos as soon as I can.  I have only watch the very first one on forward lean.  Look forward to learning more

 

bud

 

 

I look forward to your analysis and views on it.



 


Edited by RayCantu - 12/11/11 at 3:58pm
post #19 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

Skidude makes claims of "full ROM" in a ski boot.  That is simply not true.  There is an absolute limit of how far forward-flexing your leg can go in the boot.  And obviously in the other direction there is also a limit.  So really, there are limitations the boot places on you.

 

Anyway, I think the video's demonstration of the boot stiffness actually argues FOR more forward lean, to get the hips forward.

 

Also, the video assumes that one cannot flex a stiffer boot.

 

 

With regards to having an upright erect body... there are few instances where you would want that skiing.  Especially with the consideration that during a turn, the weight goes from forward to back.



I have full ROM of in my ski boots. I am also gumby

 

 

post #20 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

 

The point of this mess is that the only foot that moves into supination or more accurately inversion is the new inside foot of the turn rather than the dominantly loaded foot which everts.  This is one reason we do not want to lock the ankles ability to evert in the boots.  I believe to have my foot supinated anywhere in a turn on the load bearing outside ski in very undesirable! 

 

 


I agree with Bud, and in addition if you tip with the knee more than the amount corresponding to the foot movement by femur rotation that action will rotate the ski into the turn, but instead of letting this happen you counter that movement with the hip to create a stronger position.

 

If you do it the other way around the skis will want to twist into the turn, and you have to counter that with moving the knee to the outside. I'm sure its possible but it sound countintuitive assuming that you want to achieve higher edging angles. It is also counterintuitive to absorb the ski forces on the inside edge on the ski with the outside of the foot.

 

Also I think there is a difference to muscular action and foot movement here. If you try to get good side grip on flat ground in e.g. basketball your foot will be supinated, but the muscular action will be to evert, otherwise you would twist your ankle. In a ski boot the lateral stiffness of the boot and binding will help you with the eversion, so that the foot will manage to take an everted position when you try to. It would not be as easy in leather boots.

 

post #21 of 66



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post


I agree with Bud, and in addition if you tip with the knee more than the amount corresponding to the foot movement by femur rotation that action will rotate the ski into the turn, but instead of letting this happen you counter that movement with the hip to create a stronger position.

 

If you do it the other way around the skis will want to twist into the turn, and you have to counter that with moving the knee to the outside. I'm sure its possible but it sound countintuitive assuming that you want to achieve higher edging angles. It is also counterintuitive to absorb the ski forces on the inside edge on the ski with the outside of the foot.

 

Also I think there is a difference to muscular action and foot movement here. If you try to get good side grip on flat ground in e.g. basketball your foot will be supinated, but the muscular action will be to evert, otherwise you would twist your ankle. In a ski boot the lateral stiffness of the boot and binding will help you with the eversion, so that the foot will manage to take an everted position when you try to. It would not be as easy in leather boots.

 


I am not sure that your comments accurately reflect any of the concepts put forth in the Chapter 3 "How the Body Works" video at http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/ ....I would be glad to address and clarify any misconceptions or areas of concerns you or others might have about the content.

 

Thanks
 

 

post #22 of 66

Just an observation.. I've only watched 7 and 8 so far, but I believe in both of those reference was made to simply "tipping" over "modern skis" as a means for making a turn.  Isn't that called a "park n' ride"?  And, if so, that is something looked down upon here.

post #23 of 66
Thread Starter 

Raycantu,

 

Help me understand, when sporting ski boots our feet are in a mid stance or gait, right?   When tip my ski onto an inside edge I lift my little toe and/or dorsiflex my big toe.  What do you do?  I definitely have never supinated my foot and tried to engage the inside edge in the same motion?  What am I missing here?  Thanks for helping me understand your thinking!

 

bud

 

 

Just watch Chapter 3.  

 

 I ski into and out of counter vs. setting up early counter which you seem to advocate.

 I wear laterally stiff plastic boots on my feet which are designed to aid in edge engagement.

 My boots and my footbeds are aligned so that I can evert my foot resulting in instant pressure against the inside of my boot shell creating a triangle of pressure between my first met head, my inside ankle bone, and my heel.  I do not want my heel to lift as this compromises my balance.

 I tip both feet into the turn engaging the edges using some knee angulation (femurs rotating in the hip sockets) as I extend through apex where my hips realign with my torso and my outside leg is long and strong.  Counter is achieve slightly before and maximized after the apex.

I do not try to ski on the ball of my feet throughout my turns rather move from slight pressure on the forefoot during the top of the turn to slight pressure on my heels as I release the turn and move across my skis.

 

Nowhere have I ever felt a need or desire to supinate to improve edging?  Nor have I ever felt I needed to remained camped on the ball of my foot?

 

Could you post any photomontages of any skiers or racers demonstrating your theory?  I think you are trying to take the mechanics of walking and apply them to skiing.  When we walk in a straight path I agree with you.  

 

When you walk or run around a corner what happens?...  This is more the dynamics of making a ski turn, and using the tool (ski boot) to support this movement to the inside of the arc, I can lift my little toe to evert my foot and drive onto the ball of my foot.

 

Perhaps a person with a severe forefoot varus or severe pronation may have difficulty edging their skis unless a properly posted foot bed were used?

 

You gotta a lotta convincing to do Lucy!

 

 

 


Edited by bud heishman - 12/12/11 at 9:05pm
post #24 of 66



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Raycantu,

 

Help me understand, when sporting ski boots our feet are in a mid stance or gait, right?   When tip my ski onto an inside edge I lift my little toe and/or dorsiflex my big toe.  What do you do?  I definitely have never supinated my foot and tried to engage the inside edge in the same motion?  What am I missing here?  Thanks for helping me understand your thinking!

 

bud


Yes, I would say the foot is in a position similar to the foot position at heel off, just past mid stance, in the gait cycle. Would it not be Supinated in that phase of gait? I do not tip the ski with foot (eversion) and ankle movements (rotation of the leg in the direction of the turn, a movement in the Transverse plane). I edge the ski from the COM ( a frontal plane movement).  

 

http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/ Chapter 3 How the body works  covers this in more depth and could help one to visualize the process.

 

Introduction to Walking Gait, Pronation and Supination (1:00)
How to pressure the Ball of the Foot (4:00)
Hip Counter and Supination (4:50)
How do you edge a ski? (5:10)
Proper edging (6:40)
Knee Angulation (7:25)
Two movements to edge (7:50)
Taller is stronger (8:40)

 

Hope that helps let me know your thoughts.

post #25 of 66
Thread Starter 

Just watched chapter 4

 

Totally agree with skiers tend to use friction vs. gravity for their speed control!   I try to ski a slow enough line yet ski around that line as fast as I can and keep my skis moving forward, rather than sideways, as much as possible.

 

just watched chapter 5

 

While their are different schools thoughts on turning phases, I agree with your general description up until the point where you begin talking about remaining tall to resist forces.  If we were simply making one turn to a stop I may agree, but linking turns presents more complexity to the problem.  I want to make an effort with my turns to redistribute some of that pressure higher in the turns and is where my legs are generally longer but once my mass is redirected where I want it I must begin to release my turn to permit my mass to "topple" (term du jour) over my skis toward the apex of the new turn.  When the forces are manageable and I am moving slower, I can keep my outside leg long and extend off my uphill leg to go up and over my skis but, when the magnitude of forces in a higher speed or tighter arced turn create more force than is desired to turn my skis, I must begin to soften my legs through flexion in the last phase to absorb some of this energy and redirect it higher in the new turn where it will aid bending the skis into and early arc and permit my mass to crossover my feet without being catapulted out of the turns.  So I would argue that perhaps the highest load on my skis if I am skiing well is during your phase 2 and moving through phase three I am releasing the force while continuing to turn my skis as my mass moves across my feet to change my edges and begin your phase 1.

 

chapter 6

 

You continually reference a lower position as a weaker position?  In regards to resisting vertical loading as in your barbell reference, I would agree, but  I relate a tall stance is skiing as quicker and a lower stance as more powerful when it relates to the rotary skill.  Think of a bolt that we can not loosen with a screw driver but when we create an angle with a ratchet wrench we have much more leverage with the same length arm.  Conversely once the bolt has little resistance we can turn in much quicker with a screwdriver than with a wrench place at a right angle.  I believe I am more powerful to turn or twist my skis, if I wish to, in a more flexed stance and a wider stance.

 

You also talk about edging and pressure in the middle of the ski to turn it.  I agree, but if I want to tighten the radius of my turn I will also lever more pressure on the shovels or lengthen the radius by moving aft.  I want to control my arc rather than go along for the ride.   Now if I were only skiing on 12m radius slalom skis all the time I co uld be much lazier and simply use pressure and edge to make shorter turns down a gentle slope but increase the pitch and speed and I will need to modulate my skill blend to shape the turns to suit.  

 

Modern equipment has lulled average skiers into thinking they are great skier because they have discovered carving by simply using pressure and edge, in fact there are whole teaching systems out there that tout this is all you need.  When in fact real expert skiers and accurately moderate the skill blends to ski just inside of a true carved turn to minimize skidding and optimize forward movement yet release the edge grip just enough to allow a shaping of the arc to suit the skier's desired path.

 

ch 8

 

You talk about gait and re-supinating the foot, here you are demonstrating a huge tip lead and counter which is what it moving your pressure to the ball of your foot and causing the supination.  It looks as though this movement will promote "park n ride" turns and inhibit the involvement of the inside ski to also scribe and arc in the snow.  

 

It also sounds like you are advocating aligning the boot sole and cuff so that they line up with your navel and consequently severely under edging the ski?

 

ch 9

 

Agree cuff alignment is use to accommodate tibia varum vs. to correct knee alignment.  Agree in general with your simplified description however, you and I both know there are exceptions to the rules and sometimes canting is used to correct and sometimes to accommodate.

 

ch 10 & 11  

 

I like pretty much what you are saying here.  I break alignment up into three planes of motion as well 4 on the sagittal, 4 on the lateral, and 2 on the transverse plane.  I begin, as do you, with the foot and work up and out.  Starting with a footbed to place the foot in what I call a soft neutral (not locked).  the foot bed is the first step on the frontal plane for me, then I move to the cuff angle to match the lower leg angle, then to the sole angle, an lastly to the base bevel.  On the sagittal plane I again begin with the foot and ankle by checking dorsiflexion range and adjusting the ramp angle and forward lean accordingly, then I look at the skier clicked into their bindings and adjust the static delta angle to "ball park".  I look for the skier in a neutral cuff position to have their knees plumb over their toes and the lower leg angle to match the spine angle.  Then we go on snow and test delta with shims to fine tune dynamically.  The last parameter on the sagittal plane is the binding mount position which determines where we stand over the ski's sweet spot.  On the transverse plane I consider the boot abduction angle and cuff pivot angle but simply try to match the skier's needs in these areas with a boot choice rather than making modifications.

 

 

After watching through the whole series my general thoughts are in agreement except for your theory that we need to move into supination to pressure the ball of the foot and counter rotate excessively like Stein Erickson to ski contemporary.  I believe this tact will inhibit accurate steering of out skis and relegates the skier to rely solely on pressure and edge to turn.  Again it is not walking it is turning so think about a person in bare feet in the sand, running around a corner.....does the foot pronate or supinate?  If you do not want to sprain your ankle, I would suggest pronating, and I believe this is valid for skiing too.  I want to get my ski edge as far under my ankle and "balance axis" as possible for optimum edge hold (see ice skate).

 

post #26 of 66


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post


I am not sure that your comments accurately reflect any of the concepts put forth in the Chapter 3 "How the Body Works" video at http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/ ....I would be glad to address and clarify any misconceptions or areas of concerns you or others might have about the content.

 

Thanks
 

 

 

That was the point Ray, It does not reflect what you say in Chapter 3, I was trying to explain why I think it is wrong, and it was in reference to  Buds comment about supination. All teaching and skiing systems I know of tip the feet in the direction of the turn not the other way around. If you claims to have a biomechnaically stronger approach I think you have a lot of convincing to do. Even if it would be stronger, the most important part of skiing is edging the skis, and I cannot see how you would improve that by supinating the stance foot.

post #27 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

After watching through the whole series my general thoughts are in agreement except for your theory that we need to move into supination to pressure the ball of the foot and counter rotate excessively like Stein Erickson to ski contemporary.  I believe this tact will inhibit accurate steering of out skis and relegates the skier to rely solely on pressure and edge to turn.  Again it is not walking it is turning so think about a person in bare feet in the sand, running around a corner.....does the foot pronate or supinate?  If you do not want to sprain your ankle, I would suggest pronating, and I believe this is valid for skiing too.  I want to get my ski edge as far under my ankle and "balance axis" as possible for optimum edge hold (see ice skate).

 



Exactly, that is what I was trying to say with my basketball example, but you say it more clearly.

Too bad you live on another continent Bud, otherwise I would definitely take my boots to you.

post #28 of 66



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Raycantu,

 

Help me understand, when sporting ski boots our feet are in a mid stance or gait, right?   When tip my ski onto an inside edge I lift my little toe and/or dorsiflex my big toe.  What do you do?  I definitely have never supinated my foot and tried to engage the inside edge in the same motion?  What am I missing here?  Thanks for helping me understand your thinking!

 

bud

 

 

Just watch Chapter 3.  http://skiherenow.blogspot.com/

 

Bud,

I appreciate the time you have taken to view and comment on the videos. I will try to go through your comments one by one to explain the reasoning behind the theories presented.

 

 I ski into and out of counter vs. setting up early counter which you seem to advocate.

 

    The purpose behind what you referred to as "early counter" is based on the concepts presented in video Chapter 1, where the idea of the center of the running surface being the balance point of the ski and is positioned under the antifriction device, was explained. As you know the part of the anatomy that is most directly over that balance point of ski would be the ball of the foot. If that fact is accepted then the question becomes how to best apply pressure and if desired maintain pressure under the ball the foot.

    As we know from our understanding of biomechanics and human gait as the swing leg passes the stance foot the stance foot assumes a position of supination which engages the bones of the forefoot and prepares that foot for the propulsive phase of gait. As pointed out in the videos the body position in skiing that would most closely mimic that phase of gait would be referred to as a position of "counter". We have found that by engaging the ball the foot in the ski boot by use of the Peronius longus muscle prior to assuming this "countered" position we are able to engage the forefoot and maintain pressure on the ball the foot with the least amount of muscular effort.

 

Why is it that you would choose to ski in and out of counter?

 

 I wear laterally stiff plastic boots on my feet which are designed to aid in edge engagement.

 My boots and my footbeds are aligned so that I can evert my foot resulting in instant pressure against the inside of my boot shell creating a triangle of pressure between my first met head, my inside ankle bone, and my heel.

 

The problem with the movement of everting the foot inside the boot is that it misaligns the skeletal structure puts undue stress on the skeletal system.

 

 I tip both feet into the turn engaging the edges using some knee angulation (femurs rotating in the hip sockets) as I extend through apex where my hips realign with my torso and my outside leg is long and strong.  Counter is achieve slightly before and maximized after the apex.

I do not try to ski on the ball of my feet throughout my turns rather move from slight pressure on the forefoot during the top of the turn to slight pressure on my heels as I release the turn and move across my skis.

 

I am sure that you realize that once you pronate (roll the ankle), which unlocks the bones of the forefoot, the foot would become adaptive and it would be extremely difficult to maintain pressure on the ball a foot. The skier would have no recourse other than applying pressure through a collapsed foot and the lower leg as it rotated into the boot cuff.

 

 

 

Nowhere have I ever felt a need or desire to supinate to improve edging?  Nor have I ever felt I needed to remained camped on the ball of my foot?

 

 

It seems it was not clearly enough demonstrated to you in the video that supination is not done to improve edging but is merely the most efficient and effective way to apply and maintain pressure on the ball of the foot which corresponds to the middle of the running surface of the ski. Edging can be purely a frontal plane movement achieved by moving the center of mass to the inside of the arc being created by the ski. As you pointed out above ski boots are laterally stiff and designed to aid in edge engagement. Moving the center of mass laterally is all that is necessary to tip the ski on edge there is no need to add any movement in the transverse plane (rotation).

 

 I think you are trying to take the mechanics of walking and apply them to skiing.  When we walk in a straight path I agree with you.  

 

You are correct in your thinking that we are applying the biomechanics of the walking gait that are accessible in a ski boot to the activity of skiing.

 

It seems that we are in agreement on the biomechanics of the walking gait. Am I correct in that assumption?

 

 

When you walk or run around a corner what happens?...  This is more the dynamics of making a ski turn, and using the tool (ski boot) to support this movement to the inside of the arc, I can lift my little toe to evert my foot and drive onto the ball of my foot.

 

I am not sure you are taking into consideration the fact that the surface you are standing on when skiing always perpendicular to the lower leg. It might be more accurate to think of it as walking or running on a banked track which maintains a surface perpendicular to the line of force.

 

Perhaps a person with a severe forefoot varus or severe pronation may have difficulty edging their skis unless a properly posted foot bed were used?

 

Not sure what you are asking here please elaborate?

 

You gotta a lotta convincing to do Lucy!

 

Who is Lucy?

 

 

 



 

post #29 of 66
Thread Starter 

Raycantu I want to thank you for the civil discourse we are having!  I have enjoyed learning about your theory and discussing it.

 

Your early counter seems excessive if it is to mimic a walking gait stride as my hips do not counter much at all in normal walking stride.  The normal gait cycle which includes propulsion off the ball of the foot is unrelated to skiing in my mind.

 

Allow me to ask this question..... How does an ice hockey skater propel himself across the ice or make a turn?  Does the skater relate more to skiing or walking?  Answering this question alone should highlight the difference between a walking gate and skiing!  I believe your theory would require the skier to move the hips too far to the inside of a turn to keep pressure on the ball of the foot and too countered to effectively use the inside ski.  I also don't believe ball of the foot pressure is desirable throughout all the turning phases.

 

I ski into and out of counter as this keeps the torso quiet and stable while the legs turn more actively below this anchor.

 

I also disagree that everting the foot inside the boot causes any misalignment of the skeleton, on the contrary it helps to place the inside ski edge in more direct alignment with the forces through the skeletal structure.  The ski boot supports the weak ankle.

 

You seem to assume all that is required to turn a ski is edge and pressure.  I believe a true expert has a refined control of their rotary skills and is able to vary the radius of their turn with less edge angle and more steering of the lower legs and blend these skills all along a spectrum from pure pivot slips to pure carving.  This has held true historically through the period when skis first had toe and heel bindings.  

 

Remember we are talking turning not walking in a straight line.  When turning we are dealing with inclination and angulation to balance against the centrifugal forces not present in walking.  Again run in a circle in the sand and you will be closer to skiing.

 

Lucy is Lucille Ball from the "I love Lucy" show in the 60's

 

Standing here in my street shoes I countered my hips as you demonstrated in your video and while I feel my foot supinate I feel pressure under my fifth ray and very little pressure under my first met head, is this what you are suggesting?  I want pressure on the first met head, heel, and inside ankle.  I can achieve this by dorsi flexing my big toe and everting my foot quite nicely!   When we talk about the kinetic chain of events the first move is everting the foot to engage the edge.  Still do not see how getting pressure to the fifth met head will effectively engage the inside edge.

 

I believe your theory is flawed but would like to see photomontages of racers or good skiers demonstrating your theory?

 

 


Edited by bud heishman - 12/14/11 at 4:41pm
post #30 of 66
Thread Starter 

I hope our conversation is not over?  I want to understand how supination will help edge the inside ski edge.  I have tried on snow and inside to replicate your theory and can not get it to work?  

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