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Carrying a gun? - Page 9

post #241 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post


It is this kind of BS that causes people to take unnecessary chances in the backcountry, particularly in Yellowstone and Glacier.  This past summer my son and I backpacked 40 miles along Slough Creek in the Absaroka Beartooth Wildnerness into Yellowstone Park.  Slough Creek is the second most active grizzly habitat in YNP.  We each carried the XL size bear spray plus we also carried a spare.  We encountered a lot a people in the last 5-6 miles and most did have bear spray.  One couple, actually the woman, asked if we had seen any bears and we said no.  I asked if they had spray and her husband said he read on the internet that it doesn't work and actually attracts bears.  I told him that was pure BS and that he should talk with a ranger.  There was currently a warning about bear activity in the area due to a carcass near the trail a few miles back and his wife was terrified.  My son gave her one of our cans, which expired that year and we went on our way.

 

You may think this is a joke but it is not.

 

       I doubt anyone reading my post would actually think it not a joke.  And It is widely published and known that Bear spray is very effective, even the U.S. fish and wildlife service promote bear spray over firearms for direct defense against a charging bear.     HOWEVER:

It is also widely known that a used can of bear spray or clothing/objects/area that has been sprayed actually could/does attract brown bears, because they use a vegetable oil base in some of the sprays.   So if some idiot actually tried to use a can of bear spray on his camp site (spraying tents ect...) thinking it would repel any passing bears, it could do the opposite.   The cans clearly state that bear spray should be used as a direct defense, (spray in eyes and nose) not a preventative device.   This guy you ran into sounds like an idiot, or he was out getting free bear spray from everyone he encountered.   Don't get your panties all ruffled up.  

post #242 of 676

NOW THAT IS FUNNY!!!!   
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post



 

Time for this sign again..

 

GrizJoke.jpg
 

 



 

post #243 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by fischermh View Post



Because you are at the mercy of the wind.  In addition, a determined attacker can fight through pepper spray.  I don't find a semi-auto dangerous.  If I don't pull the trigger, it does not do anything.

It was actually found that the determined attacker (bears) will fight through being shot more often to attack than pepper spray.   Reason, pain angers them,  while pepper spray effects their sight and smell.  Don't get me wrong people still get attacked after using pepper spray but not as often.   Probably why you don't see bears snacking on skunks.  
 

 

post #244 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

It was actually found that the determined attacker (bears) will fight through being shot more often to attack than pepper spray.   Reason, pain angers them,  while pepper spray effects their sight and smell.  Don't get me wrong people still get attacked after using pepper spray but not as often.   Probably why you don't see bears snacking on skunks.  
 

 


 

Well that might be all good and true. However, personally I'd go with a chainsaw,flamethrower or large caliber rifle. It's where you shoot the designated target. I respect wildlife and would try to avoid any contact.

post #245 of 676

This is flying at you.   It's 8 feet tall.  What are the odds of hitting the eyes or nose with a can of silly string?

9A6_grizzly.jpg

post #246 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post


 

Well that might be all good and true. However, personally I'd go with a chainsaw,flamethrower or large caliber rifle. It's where you shoot the designated target. I respect wildlife and would try to avoid any contact.


lol,   at least the bear would be ready to eat when you were done with that flamethrower! 

 

post #247 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennyn23 View Post

As everyone has said, "just my opinion," but I'd like to share some personal experiences.  I am currently at student at Virginia Tech and have lived in Blacksburg for the last 15 years.  As, no doubt, all and/or most of you have heard we have had some issues with guns on our campus in the past.  This phenomenon is exactly what I don't like about guns.  I don't fear the gun, I fear the uneducated person who does not know how to use or respect the gun.  A gun in the hands of a lunatic is a massively deadly thing.  Having said this, a gun is a tool.  It is only as deadly as the person wielding it.   I do, however, fear someone who says that a gun can have zero risk of going off.  The fact of the matter is is that you're dealing with a deadly tool.  It ALWAYS has the potential to be hazardous, even if a bullet isn't in the chamber.  Bullets can be set off by mere heat.  Oh, and just some background info, I own a gun and shoot somewhat regularly.  Oh, and citizens with submachine guns scare me.  Just a side note.

What about the well educated lunatic who is competent with the uses of his weapons or the merely ordinary type person with a loaded weapon who has had too much to drink or maybe just overstressed? Here in NH our resident lunatic body (legislature) has passed a law which forbids schools or businesses from prohibiting the carrying of loaded weapons on campus or in the workplace/business place. They are also looking at legalizing permitless carry of concealed loaded weapons and carry of loaded weapons in automobiles. The governor has promised to veto meanwhile the death wish saga continues.

 

Given the level of alcoholic intoxication around campus, I don't look favorably upon the prospect of well armed students.
 

 

post #248 of 676

Thanks crgildart for derailing this thread about carrying a gun for protection against large predators (a dumb idea if you ask me) into a missinformation-filled freakout about nasty guns. And you are absolutely correct - most of the weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels came from the homes of law-abiding US citizens. Do you know anything at all about the difference between a semi-auto and an MG? Oh yeah - that's right - you just file down the ____ a bit and voila! - full-auto! I'm sure you also have extensive experience with the fine human beings involved with drug cartels. No? Well, don't let that stop you.

 

 

 

Back to skiing - biathlon is unbelieveably impressive. Hitting the targets with those rifles isn't that hard. Doing it while your heart-rate is going through the roof is amazing.

post #249 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post

 

Back to skiing - biathlon is unbelieveably impressive. Hitting the targets with those rifles isn't that hard. Doing it while your heart-rate is going through the roof is amazing.


Truly spoken. A definite athletic accomplishment that mimics real life. A very rare Jer nugget of sanity. Yer cool.

 

post #250 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post

Thanks crgildart for derailing this thread about carrying a gun for protection against large predators (a dumb idea if you ask me) into a missinformation-filled freakout about nasty guns.

Anytime amigowink.gif  My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood where English is the primary language.

 

 

Quote:
PHOENIX -- Every year, thousands of guns are smuggled into Mexico from the United States, fueling the brutal drug-cartel wars and stirring outrage on both sides of the border.
 

But often overlooked in the controversy are the tons of bullets that also make their way south of the border.

In Mexico, ammunition is strictly regulated and possession of even a single illegal round can lead to prison. But there is nonetheless a steady supply of bullets. Almost all of it comes from the north.

Hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition are purchased each year from online retailers, big-box stores and at gun shows in Arizona and other Southwest border states, then are smuggled across the border.

"It's all coming from the U.S.," said Jose Wall, senior trafficking agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix. "I can't remember where I've seen ammunition from anywhere but the U.S."

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-09/ammo-us-mexico/50707742/1

 

Biatholon is totally sick.  Not for me, but much harder than it looks for sure..

post #251 of 676

I'm really not sure what on earth living in a neighborhood with a large number of latinos or Poles or Ukrainians who don't speak English at the dinner table has to do with guns.

 

For biathlon, on reflection there is a way to "keep it real" by going on a 2 or more day trip on skis where you hunt your own protein, without losing too much weight.  The easiest, in-season, involves rabbits and at least one good dog, the right snow and no snowmobile trails on your route (snowmobile trails and dogs = no bueno, for our multilingual friends).  You could do this with a rifle or airgun to keep it fairly close to actual biathlon, or more easily with a shotgun.  I'd say an 870, just to hear the sound of freedom.  Or, you could use a handgun, maybe a .410 revolver even.  For it to count, I'd say you shouldn't be allowed to eat unless and until the protein for you (not your dog) is something you shot on the trip, and you should keep skis on while shooting.  Spooning the dog at night is optional.

 

I think anyone who tries would find that at no point does their gun become demonically possessed and threaten them.  You could even do the trip with someone who didn't grow up speaking English at home, one of the cool parts of hunting and fishing is the different people you meet. 

post #252 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

It was actually found that the determined attacker (bears) will fight through being shot more often to attack than pepper spray.   Reason, pain angers them,  while pepper spray effects their sight and smell.  Don't get me wrong people still get attacked after using pepper spray but not as often.   Probably why you don't see bears snacking on skunks.  
 

 



Are you serious?  Pepper spray works better than a firearm?  Properly deployed, a determined attacker will be stopped by a gun.  Multiple rounds to center mass and the head will stop an attacker.  Pepper spray is not nearly as effective.

post #253 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennyn23 View Post

A  It ALWAYS has the potential to be hazardous, even if a bullet isn't in the chamber.  Bullets can be set off by mere heat.



This is BS.  While a round may burn off in a very hot gun, it is very rare.  You need to fire off hundreds of rounds in a short time to have the slightest possibility of it occurring.  A hot summer day does not result in a gun firing.

post #254 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennyn23 View Post

As everyone has said, "just my opinion," but I'd like to share some personal experiences.  I am currently at student at Virginia Tech and have lived in Blacksburg for the last 15 years.  As, no doubt, all and/or most of you have heard we have had some issues with guns on our campus in the past.  This phenomenon is exactly what I don't like about guns.  I don't fear the gun, I fear the uneducated person who does not know how to use or respect the gun.  A gun in the hands of a lunatic is a massively deadly thing. 



How many would have died at Va. Tech, if the lunatic would have had rounds coming back at him?  It was illegal for the lunatic to bring his guns on campus,but he ignored the law.  Laws do not stop crime, guns do.

 

The idea that guns should be kept out of the hands of law abiding citizens is lunacy.  Myself,I am prepared to protect myself and my family.  Others can rely on laws, but I know laws do nothing to protect me.

post #255 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by fischermh View Post



How many would have died at Va. Tech, if the lunatic would have had rounds coming back at him?



About the same number that will die outside of frat parties every month if everyone's packin'.  I might be able to entertain the concept of people carrying guns around in public if we could get rid of alcohol and other mood altering substances including spouses/potential spousesroflmao.gif

post #256 of 676

 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

I'm really not sure what on earth living in a neighborhood with a large number of latinos or Poles or Ukrainians who don't speak English at the dinner table has to do with guns.

We were discussing where the Mexican drug cartels get their guns.  Knowing lots of Mexicans and hearing about the violence they left first hand is relevant.  Especially considering this is where the country would be headed should we choose to arm ourselves rather than rely on government forces to protect us.  Folks with the biggest wallets would have private security and everyone else would be at the mercy of real gangsters just like Mexico. 

 

As for hut trips around here.  There seems to be plenty of nonono2.gifskunks in the mountains, not so many rabbits.  However, the main obstacle to a hut ski trip this season isn't lack of food options.  the main obstacle is nothing to ski on.th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

post #257 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

 

...

As for hut trips around here.  There seems to be plenty of nonono2.gifskunks in the mountains, not so many rabbits.  However, the main obstacle to a hut ski trip this season isn't lack of food options.  the main obstacle is nothing to ski on.th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif

 


Hut trips would not be the idea.  A tent, or maybe just a tarp, would work fine, plus the hut supply is a lot more limited than the snow supply. 

 

You're clearly fairly anti-carry.  That's fine.  But, not too relevant to carrying guns in an outdoor setting.
 

 

post #258 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by fischermh View Post



Are you serious?  Pepper spray works better than a firearm?  Properly deployed, a determined attacker will be stopped by a gun.  Multiple rounds to center mass and the head will stop an attacker.  Pepper spray is not nearly as effective.


Well thats what the US fish and wildlife says.  They took the data of attacks and found that 50% of bears went on to attack people after being shot, and said the number of attacks after Bear spray was much lower.  Look up Bear spray vs guns and decide for yourself.    Also keep in mind that a Bear needs to be shot with a very big gun just to pierce the skull, (if you can hit it while it is bobbing up and down at 35mph towards you and you just noticed it 30 feet away).    

 

post #259 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post


Well thats what the US fish and wildlife says.  They took the data of attacks and found that 50% of bears went on to attack people after being shot, and said the number of attacks after Bear spray was much lower.  Look up Bear spray vs guns and decide for yourself.    Also keep in mind that a Bear needs to be shot with a very big gun just to pierce the skull, (if you can hit it while it is bobbing up and down at 35mph towards you and you just noticed it 30 feet away).    

 

Not picking on you p. But a Head shot is not the right place. It's the shoulder. A Bear can not run as fast w/a broken shoulder.
 

 

post #260 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Not picking on you p. But a Head shot is not the right place. It's the shoulder. A Bear can not run as fast w/a broken shoulder.
 

 



What kind of pain threshold do bears have?  I would think unless a mom is trying to secure her cubs even a large bear would be deterred by  a couple of burning hot chunks of lead just about anywhere under the skin.  I  realize that won't seriously injure a bear, but might encourage them to go the other way while you do the same. These days they usually find the animals that facilitated fatal attacks and conduct analysis.  I haven't heard of any where the victim shot the bear successfully but was still killed... except for possibly a mama with cubs..

post #261 of 676

I am not a Big White Hunter or anything like that. Bear skulls are extermely thick and projectiles have been known to bounce off the slanted skull. Now hitting the shoulder/chest has better penetration and does slow them down. Most animals will retreat when pain is encountered. Yes, Sow and Cubs are the most dangerous.    

post #262 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Not picking on you p. But a Head shot is not the right place. It's the shoulder. A Bear can not run as fast w/a broken shoulder.
 

 

It's not my data so I know you aren't picking on me.   You are disagreeing with the data supplied by the U.S fish and wildlife and Wildlife management from biologists in states that don't know anything about bears like Alaska, Montana, Utah.....         Read this    http://www.udap.com/bearnews.pdf       Don't post a reply yet, here are several more articles.  (and yes I own a gun)

 

Here is another article.  

 

According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Law Enforcement Personnel, even experienced hunters who use firearms to defend themselves suffer injury 50% of the time. Persons defending themselves with bear spray escaped injury most of the time and those that were injured experienced shorter attacks and less severe injuries.

Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero believes a person’s chance of incurring serious injury doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.

So while a gun can kill a bear, can a shooter be accurate enough to prevent a serious even fatal attack? It takes nerves of steel to shoot a charging grizzly accurately when zigzagging through dense brush. What of you miss or worse yet, injure the bear? An injured grizzly is a very dangerous grizzly. On the other hand, bear spray has been found to actually cancel the instinctive defensive rage of an attacking bear by temporarily interfering with its senses. U.S. Forest Service, State Fish and Game and National Park Service personnel carry bear spray in a holster on their belts when working in grizzly country, just in case of an unexpected encounter. 

 


Here is another,   http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2008-03/drop-rifle-and-pick-bear-spray    or read below

 

 

Brigham Young University bear biologist Thomas Smith says that guns aren't necessarily your best option when facing down one of the beasts.

Smith and his team analyzed 20 years worth of incidents in Alaska, and found that the wilderness equivalent of pepper spray effectively deterred bears 92 percent of the time, whereas guns only did the trick one-third less often. (He studied polar bears, too, hence the picture, at left, of an unconscious mother and her cubs. And yes, he did get away before everyone woke up.)

The odd thing, though, is that the effectiveness of the stuff doesn't seem to have much to do with the chemicals in the spray. In fact, Smith says he found some cases in which people actually attracted bears by applying the stuff to their tents or other gear. It may be that the cloud of spray, and the sound of its dispersal, are what really incite the bears to turn and run. So, you know, next time you stare down a bear, ditch the gun and whip out a spray.

 

Or how about this study, from the Journal of Wildlife Management, ,,  

 

Abstract: We present a comprehensive look at a sample of bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska, USA, from 1985 to 2006. We analyzed 83 bear spray incidents involving brown bears (Ursus arctos; 61 cases, 74%), black bears (Ursus americanus; 20 cases, 24%), and polar bears (Ursus maritimus; 2 cases, 2%). Of the 72 cases where persons sprayed bears to defend themselves, 50 (69%) involved brown bears, 20 (28%) black bears, and 2 (3%) polar bears. Red pepper spray stopped bears' undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears. Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters. All bear—inflicted injuries (n = 3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents, users reported the spray having had negative side effects upon themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71). Bear spray represents an effective alternative to lethal force and should be considered as an option for personal safety for those recreating and working in bear country. (JOURNAL OF WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT 72(3):640–645; 2008)

 

 

Here is another article on a hunting magazine website (pro gun site),   http://www.elk-hunting-tips.net/bear-spray.html   or just read below,  

 

 

There are strong opinions among hunters about whether to shoot a charging bear with a gun, or use bear pepper spray. Regardless of how macho it might feel to think you can pull a large caliber pistol and fire it rapidly and accurately, bear spray is more dependable against a bear attack, probably even more than a rifle (see research below).

 

 

 

The question one must honestly answer is, “Can I draw my pistol or rifle and shoot it accurately into the brain (the size of a pop can) of a very fast charging grizzly seconds before it is on me?” Could it be done if your life depended on it under that kind of pressure?

 

 

Or, would it be wiser to be prepared and practiced at simply flipping off the safety of the bear spray canister and pushing the release tab while pointing it in the general direction of the bear’s face? This can be done even while the bear spray canister is still in its holster, depending on the brand/holster type.

 

 

Obviously, pulling the bear pepper spray canister from the holster and pointing it is the goal, but hunters or hikers often surprise a bear and the attack can be instant, without delay. You might have seconds to react to the attack and being able to spray from the hip might be the only option.

 

When a Bear Charge Occurs

Grizzly Bear Attack

If there is some warning that a bear attack is about to occur, the bear pepper spray can be pulled, pointed and sprayed more carefully when and if the bear charges, or to prevent a charge. Ears back is a reliable warning of an imminent charge! (It's good to know that many charges are bluffs. Maintaining composure and emotions during a bear charge can be tough, but knowing that they often "bluff" can help.)

 

 

A short blast of bear pepper spray can set up a noxious fog that the bear will not succeed in moving through without locking up his lungs. Then you won’t have to convince the authorities that you had to kill a bear you felt threatened by. (See true story below.)

 

 

If the bear is on his way, quickly repeated short blasts should be sent his way until he gets close. If a bear is close, simply let him have it full force without pausing and he will stop and turn. Pepper sprays have never failed when used properly and quickly enough.

 

 

 

Still Leaning Toward a Gun?

If you still prefer the idea of using a gun, are you sure that if you missed the brain the bullet would enter a point on the bear that would absolutely stop it from mauling you? A powerful bear deterrent spray will stop a grizzly or black bear in its tracks and turn it away, if you can get it sprayed toward its head before it is on you! Make sure you practice pulling it repeatedly to get good at it.

 

 

 

If you couldn’t do this with a conveniently carried can of bear spray, you more than likely would not be able to do so with a quickly accessible gun either. With a can of spray, all you have to do is get the bear deterrent in the bear’s face, by creating a fog before it attacks, or directly into its face as it charges. When the spray comes out it spreads out, not in a stream, making a precise hit unnecessary.

 

 

The best bear spray will forcefully blast out plenty of pepper spray to do the job. As soon as the extremely irritating (understatement) pepper spray enters the eyes and nose of the bear, his breathing will shut down temporarily and he will turn back and just try to survive the terrible discomfort and lack of incoming oxygen. After he gets done coughing, sneezing and rubbing his eyes, you can be long gone. He would want nothing more to do with you anyway!

 

 

At that point you and the bear would both still be alive. You would have a story to tell, but not one to try to convince a game warden or park ranger that you had no choice but to wound or kill a bear to save your own life (assuming you were able to stop the attack with a gun).

 

Gun Vs. Spray Research

There is some research about bear spray and gun use during bear attacks. The numbers for gun use for protection from bears involves a time span of about 120 years, compared to 20 years of research on bear spray use as a deterrent to bear attacks. Comparing the numbers so far seems to indicate that spray is more effective.

 

 

It takes more steps (unsling/unholster, load, safety off, cock, aim accurately and fire) to deploy a gun than bear spray (unholster, safety off, point and shoot). Some bear sprays can even be “fired” with the canister still in the holster, if necessary due to lack of time. Bear spray does not require good aiming, as does a gun, in order to stop a bear attack. Seconds count in a bear attack. Accuracy and proficiency decline under stress. (Might resemble Barney Fife, of Mayberry!)

 

Pepper Spray Research

Here is an abstract of research about bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska reported in the Journal of Wildlife Management (2008, see reference data below quote):

 

 

“Of the 72 cases where persons sprayed bears to defend themselves, 50 (69%) involved brown bears, 20 (28%) black bears, and 2 (3%) polar bears. Red pepper spray stopped bears’ undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears. Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters.

 

 

All bear inflicted injuries (3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents, users reported the spray having had negative side effects upon themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71). (JOURNAL OF WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT 72(3):640–645; 2008)”

 

Gun Use Research

(Remember that gun use in bear attacks has been researched much longer than bear spray. Data will change with time.) A review of research data about gun use during bear attacks provides the following data:

 

 

When 478 people used guns to defend themselves from a bear attack: 17 were killed by the bear, 25 received serious injuries, 42 had moderate injuries and 29 had only slight injuries (24% injury rate). Gun users experienced 12 times the injury rate of those in the bear spray use study.

 

(Gore, M. L., B. A. Knuth, P. D. Curtis, and J. E. Shanahan. 2006. Education programs for reducing American black bear-human conflict: indicators of success? Ursus 17:75-80.; Herrero, S. 1985, 2002 (Revised edition). Bear attacks: their causes and avoidance. Lyons & Burford, Publishers, New York, New York, USA.)

 

Using Guns to Protect from Bear Attacks

The Best Bear Spray

UDAP Bear Spray

The two biggest bear spray producers are UDAP andCounter Assault. Both work effectively as a bear deterrent. Both are “fire extinguisher” type sprays. UDAP's spraycontents comes out faster than Counter Assault’s. The manufacturer is adamant that more deterrent coming out faster is more effective.

 

 

The faster volume release creates a louder sound that also acts as a deterrent of itself, startling the bear. Both product contents are essentially equal in effectiveness. UDAP has a stretchy holster that can be used without removal of the canister, in case there is no time.

 

 

 

Personally, I do not want to carry my pepper spray in a holster that has a safety flap on top that I have to remove before I can flip the plastic safety off. The covers can be left off the top or some holsters do not have them at all.

 

Counter Assault Bear Spray

If you will be walking through thick brush, you might want a covering to avoid it being pulled out accidentally; otherwise it simply adds one more step to the process of deterring bear attacks. Both manufacturers have hip and chest holsters available.

 

 

Bottom line: Bear spray is an effective bear deterrent, if it is accessible and you can deploy it quickly. A large caliber gun will also stop a bear, if you are fast enough and proficient with it under pressure of an attack. The problem is, the bear may be dead afterward. If it is, and you are still alive, you now have to deal with the authorities.

 

Best Buy for the Best Bear Spray

There is a UDAP 7.9 oz. Bear Spray with Hip Holsteri477h48x20MPWSNWOPMONVWVPWO that has a different label than the one pictured above. It is packaged in a plastic bag, rather than a fancy "clam shell" package. The safety is not "glow in the dark". Inside are the exact same contents as the more expensive version. The clam shell packaging is for the convenience of store owners' displays (and you get to pay extra for it). You can see it by clicking here.i477h48x20MPWSNWOPMONVWVPWO

The Law is Not on Your Side

The Endangered Species Act is flawed and most often gives more weight to species protection than self-defense. In the summer of 2011 in North Idaho, “33-year-old Jeremy Hill, shot and killed a male grizzly bear at his home in May. He pleaded not guilty… to the accusation of killing the federally protected species. He claimed he was protecting his children when three bears entered his property near Porthill, Idaho.” (KXLY.com Sandpoint and Bonner Counties)

 

 

Local authorities concluded that Hill was justified in shooting the grizzly. Federal officials decided he was responsible for the illegal death of the grizzly he shot. They agreed to drop the charges if he would agree that he had violated the Endangered Species Act and to pay a $1,000 fine. (Thankfully, at the local FHA auction, Hill’s son’s farm animal was auctioned and re-auctioned several times by his compassionate neighbors to help raise funds to pay his fine.)

 

 

Mr. Hill shot the bear three times before she died. A canister of bear deterrent spray engaged in the sow bear’s direction would have sent her fleeing, cubs in tow. No questions would have been asked. The extreme discomfort would deter her return and would have avoided the troublesome court action and fine.

 

 

BUT HEY I mean what do these Biologist know and all these DIFFERENT STUDIES....  and after all we are talking about skiing trips.  Who is gonna sling a rifle over their shoulder while skiing?  and by the time you get if off of your shoulder , turn off the safety and chamber a round, well....   Dont' get me wrong I am not against guns, I am just showing you what the facts are when it comes to bear attacks....   They actually suggest that hunters carry bear spray with them...

 

post #263 of 676


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post


Hut trips would not be the idea.  A tent, or maybe just a tarp, would work fine, plus the hut supply is a lot more limited than the snow supply. 


 

 


 

 

clearpixel.gifWelcome to HutSki.com - 10th Mountain, Braun Huts, Summit Huts and Friends Hut Information & Free Topo Maps

 

http://www.mainehuts.org/

 

 

 

 

 

On the other discussion above about spray versus bullets.. a couple of things:

I don't doubt that the parks folks and government folks would prefer that everybody carry spray instead of guns.. and provide all kinds of empirical evidence supporting the effectiveness against bears (what people most fear). I question their motives here.  If I worked as a park ranger, my biggest fear is getting hit by a stray while some yahoo is shooting wildly in to the bushes at a hedgehog while screaming "BEAR BEAR!!!!!!!!!!"  This is also MY biggest fear as a park visitor.  I suspect ulterior motives and BSmeter.gif with these studies and their results.  And, I agree with the general motivation for such bias.   I want it both ways.  I'd rather carry a gun myself, but would prefer that you and everybody else stuck with the silly stringtongue.gif

 

Secondly, bears aren't actually the most likely dangerous animal that attacks people frequently in the northern woods and mountains.  That title goes to moose, especially in winter.  How well does pepper spray work with moose?th_dunno-1[1].gif


Edited by crgildart - 1/10/12 at 10:15am
post #264 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post



What kind of pain threshold do bears have?  I would think unless a mom is trying to secure her cubs even a large bear would be deterred by  a couple of burning hot chunks of lead just about anywhere under the skin.  I  realize that won't seriously injure a bear, but might encourage them to go the other way while you do the same. These days they usually find the animals that facilitated fatal attacks and conduct analysis.  I haven't heard of any where the victim shot the bear successfully but was still killed... except for possibly a mama with cubs..


This is on one of the articles above,  

"When 478 people used guns to defend themselves from a bear attack: 17 were killed by the bear, 25 received serious injuries, 42 had moderate injuries and 29 had only slight injuries (24% injury rate). Gun users experienced 12 times the injury rate of those in the bear spray use study".

I have never talked to a bear but it appears that they are extremely hard to put down in a 5-10 second period which is all you have.   

 

post #265 of 676

Like many people here, I have done tent/ski trips and one thing never changes,  IT"S FRIGGING COLD OUT THERE!!! :)  and to top it off, some of the places don't allow fires!  So do your homework.  
 



 

post #266 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post


This is on one of the articles above,  

"When 478 people used guns to defend themselves from a bear attack: 17 were killed by the bear, 25 received serious injuries, 42 had moderate injuries and 29 had only slight injuries (24% injury rate). Gun users experienced 12 times the injury rate of those in the bear spray use study".

I have never talked to a bear but it appears that they are extremely hard to put down in a 5-10 second period which is all you have.   

 


But you are FAR more likely to be attacked by a moose than a bear while skiing.  How well does the spray do against moose?  popcorn.gif

 

post #267 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


But you are FAR more likely to be attacked by a moose than a bear while skiing.  How well does the spray do against moose?  popcorn.gif

 

Oh come on, thats a no brainer, everyone knows that you should carry around pop up inflatable dolls as protection against all of natures predators, here is a link.  

http://www.google.com/patents?id=z1OSAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false       lol

post #268 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

Oh come on, thats a no brainer, everyone knows that you should carry around pop up inflatable dolls as protection against all of natures predators, here is a link.  

http://www.google.com/patents?id=z1OSAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false       lol

 


 

There are back country skiers that already rock those..

 

lifebag.jpg

 

post #269 of 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

 


 

There are back country skiers that already rock those..

 

lifebag.jpg

 


Yea but those ave inflatables are not even close to being as cool as the giant inflatable mouse looking thing on the link.  :)  

But here I found this on UDAP site,  http://www.udap.com/othertestimonials.htm

 

.You just never know how a moose will react....

Buckingham.jpgLast year I was working near the Continental Divide just south of Glacier National Park. Over the course of about two months I saw this cow moose, never saw a calf, at least a half a dozen times, in the same area. I came with-in a hundred yards of her each time and she never displayed any aggression. Then one morning I'm in the same area and see the cow moose again. This time, at about a hundred yards or so, she lays her ears back, with the hair standing up on the back of her neck, and trots in my direction. I thought, "what the hell's up with her?" and stepped back in the timber behind the largest tree I could find. She came charging in, reared and started striking with her front feet around either side of the tree. I'm ducking and dodging and thinking thismoose.jpg old girl is pretty serious. The can of UDAP, that is ALWAYS in the right-hand leg pocket of my Carhartt pants when I'm in the backcountry, comes to hand and I give her about a two or three second burst at about three feet distance. The effect is immediate and dramatic. The cow moose almost goes down, regains her feet and ricochets off about three trees on her way out of the timber. It worked very well and I didn't have "moose tracks" all over me! I have been treed by moose on one occasion and respect them as much as grizzly bears. Under certain circumstances they are more unpredictable than bears. You just never know how a moose will react and I was very glad to have your product in my pocket on that day. Thanks again for "saving my bacon!"

Sincerely, Ross Buckingham

 

post #270 of 676



That list kind of underscores the point that hut systems that are great for ski touring may not be the best for other things in the winter.  Though, hut systems do get used for hunting in the fall.  Some get used to hunt bear, actually.

 

In terms of all the gun control weirdness that was a part of this thread, I'd just encourage people again to get familiar with how guns operate.  For instance, several people have stated that semi-auto are more dangerous that revolvers.  Revolvers are definitely simpler, but both are very safe to carry, and many semi-autos actually have more redundant safety systems in place.  Using hunting as one example, many people hunt rabbits in particular with both revolvers and semi-autos, while moving through thick brush and over rugged terrain.  Both types of handgun work well for this, and relative to a rifle or shotgun the issue is the shorter effective range, not the ability to carry safely.

 

That does not mean they are NEEDED gear for backcountry skiing.  They clearly are an emotional hot-button, in part because of the media and cultural hysteria around them.  If people walk into a store or class to just learn how they operate, how they fire and don't fire, etc. it demystifies them and then they're just another piece of gear. 

 

 

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