Quote:
Originally Posted by
slider 
Not picking on you p. But a Head shot is not the right place. It's the shoulder. A Bear can not run as fast w/a broken shoulder.
It's not my data so I know you aren't picking on me. You are disagreeing with the data supplied by the U.S fish and wildlife and Wildlife management from biologists in states that don't know anything about bears like Alaska, Montana, Utah..... Read this http://www.udap.com/bearnews.pdf Don't post a reply yet, here are several more articles. (and yes I own a gun)
Here is another article.
According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Law Enforcement Personnel, even experienced hunters who use firearms to defend themselves suffer injury 50% of the time. Persons defending themselves with bear spray escaped injury most of the time and those that were injured experienced shorter attacks and less severe injuries.
Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero believes a person’s chance of incurring serious injury doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.
So while a gun can kill a bear, can a shooter be accurate enough to prevent a serious even fatal attack? It takes nerves of steel to shoot a charging grizzly accurately when zigzagging through dense brush. What of you miss or worse yet, injure the bear? An injured grizzly is a very dangerous grizzly. On the other hand, bear spray has been found to actually cancel the instinctive defensive rage of an attacking bear by temporarily interfering with its senses. U.S. Forest Service, State Fish and Game and National Park Service personnel carry bear spray in a holster on their belts when working in grizzly country, just in case of an unexpected encounter.
Here is another, http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2008-03/drop-rifle-and-pick-bear-spray or read below
Brigham Young University bear biologist Thomas Smith says that guns aren't necessarily your best option when facing down one of the beasts.
Smith and his team analyzed 20 years worth of incidents in Alaska, and found that the wilderness equivalent of pepper spray effectively deterred bears 92 percent of the time, whereas guns only did the trick one-third less often. (He studied polar bears, too, hence the picture, at left, of an unconscious mother and her cubs. And yes, he did get away before everyone woke up.)
The odd thing, though, is that the effectiveness of the stuff doesn't seem to have much to do with the chemicals in the spray. In fact, Smith says he found some cases in which people actually attracted bears by applying the stuff to their tents or other gear. It may be that the cloud of spray, and the sound of its dispersal, are what really incite the bears to turn and run. So, you know, next time you stare down a bear, ditch the gun and whip out a spray.
Or how about this study, from the Journal of Wildlife Management, ,,
Abstract: We present a comprehensive look at a sample of bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska, USA, from 1985 to 2006. We analyzed 83 bear spray incidents involving brown bears (Ursus arctos; 61 cases, 74%), black bears (Ursus americanus; 20 cases, 24%), and polar bears (Ursus maritimus; 2 cases, 2%). Of the 72 cases where persons sprayed bears to defend themselves, 50 (69%) involved brown bears, 20 (28%) black bears, and 2 (3%) polar bears. Red pepper spray stopped bears' undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears. Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters. All bear—inflicted injuries (n = 3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents, users reported the spray having had negative side effects upon themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71). Bear spray represents an effective alternative to lethal force and should be considered as an option for personal safety for those recreating and working in bear country. (JOURNAL OF WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT 72(3):640–645; 2008)
Here is another article on a hunting magazine website (pro gun site), http://www.elk-hunting-tips.net/bear-spray.html or just read below,
There are strong opinions among hunters about whether to shoot a charging bear with a gun, or use bear pepper spray. Regardless of how macho it might feel to think you can pull a large caliber pistol and fire it rapidly and accurately, bear spray is more dependable against a bear attack, probably even more than a rifle (see research below).
The question one must honestly answer is, “Can I draw my pistol or rifle and shoot it accurately into the brain (the size of a pop can) of a very fast charging grizzly seconds before it is on me?” Could it be done if your life depended on it under that kind of pressure?
Or, would it be wiser to be prepared and practiced at simply flipping off the safety of the bear spray canister and pushing the release tab while pointing it in the general direction of the bear’s face? This can be done even while the bear spray canister is still in its holster, depending on the brand/holster type.
Obviously, pulling the bear pepper spray canister from the holster and pointing it is the goal, but hunters or hikers often surprise a bear and the attack can be instant, without delay. You might have seconds to react to the attack and being able to spray from the hip might be the only option.
When a Bear Charge Occurs
If there is some warning that a bear attack is about to occur, the bear pepper spray can be pulled, pointed and sprayed more carefully when and if the bear charges, or to prevent a charge. Ears back is a reliable warning of an imminent charge! (It's good to know that many charges are bluffs. Maintaining composure and emotions during a bear charge can be tough, but knowing that they often "bluff" can help.)
A short blast of bear pepper spray can set up a noxious fog that the bear will not succeed in moving through without locking up his lungs. Then you won’t have to convince the authorities that you had to kill a bear you felt threatened by. (See true story below.)
If the bear is on his way, quickly repeated short blasts should be sent his way until he gets close. If a bear is close, simply let him have it full force without pausing and he will stop and turn. Pepper sprays have never failed when used properly and quickly enough.
Still Leaning Toward a Gun?
If you still prefer the idea of using a gun, are you sure that if you missed the brain the bullet would enter a point on the bear that would absolutely stop it from mauling you? A powerful bear deterrent spray will stop a grizzly or black bear in its tracks and turn it away, if you can get it sprayed toward its head before it is on you! Make sure you practice pulling it repeatedly to get good at it.
If you couldn’t do this with a conveniently carried can of bear spray, you more than likely would not be able to do so with a quickly accessible gun either. With a can of spray, all you have to do is get the bear deterrent in the bear’s face, by creating a fog before it attacks, or directly into its face as it charges. When the spray comes out it spreads out, not in a stream, making a precise hit unnecessary.
The best bear spray will forcefully blast out plenty of pepper spray to do the job. As soon as the extremely irritating (understatement) pepper spray enters the eyes and nose of the bear, his breathing will shut down temporarily and he will turn back and just try to survive the terrible discomfort and lack of incoming oxygen. After he gets done coughing, sneezing and rubbing his eyes, you can be long gone. He would want nothing more to do with you anyway!
At that point you and the bear would both still be alive. You would have a story to tell, but not one to try to convince a game warden or park ranger that you had no choice but to wound or kill a bear to save your own life (assuming you were able to stop the attack with a gun).
Gun Vs. Spray Research
There is some research about bear spray and gun use during bear attacks. The numbers for gun use for protection from bears involves a time span of about 120 years, compared to 20 years of research on bear spray use as a deterrent to bear attacks. Comparing the numbers so far seems to indicate that spray is more effective.
It takes more steps (unsling/unholster, load, safety off, cock, aim accurately and fire) to deploy a gun than bear spray (unholster, safety off, point and shoot). Some bear sprays can even be “fired” with the canister still in the holster, if necessary due to lack of time. Bear spray does not require good aiming, as does a gun, in order to stop a bear attack. Seconds count in a bear attack. Accuracy and proficiency decline under stress. (Might resemble Barney Fife, of Mayberry!)
Pepper Spray Research
Here is an abstract of research about bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska reported in the Journal of Wildlife Management (2008, see reference data below quote):
“Of the 72 cases where persons sprayed bears to defend themselves, 50 (69%) involved brown bears, 20 (28%) black bears, and 2 (3%) polar bears. Red pepper spray stopped bears’ undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears. Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters.
All bear inflicted injuries (3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents, users reported the spray having had negative side effects upon themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71). (JOURNAL OF WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT 72(3):640–645; 2008)”
Gun Use Research
(Remember that gun use in bear attacks has been researched much longer than bear spray. Data will change with time.) A review of research data about gun use during bear attacks provides the following data:
When 478 people used guns to defend themselves from a bear attack: 17 were killed by the bear, 25 received serious injuries, 42 had moderate injuries and 29 had only slight injuries (24% injury rate). Gun users experienced 12 times the injury rate of those in the bear spray use study.
(Gore, M. L., B. A. Knuth, P. D. Curtis, and J. E. Shanahan. 2006. Education programs for reducing American black bear-human conflict: indicators of success? Ursus 17:75-80.; Herrero, S. 1985, 2002 (Revised edition). Bear attacks: their causes and avoidance. Lyons & Burford, Publishers, New York, New York, USA.)
The Best Bear Spray
The two biggest bear spray producers are UDAP andCounter Assault
. Both work effectively as a bear deterrent. Both are “fire extinguisher” type sprays. UDAP's spray
contents comes out faster than Counter Assault’s. The manufacturer is adamant that more deterrent coming out faster is more effective.
The faster volume release creates a louder sound that also acts as a deterrent of itself, startling the bear. Both product contents are essentially equal in effectiveness. UDAP has a stretchy holster that can be used without removal of the canister, in case there is no time.
Personally, I do not want to carry my pepper spray in a holster that has a safety flap on top that I have to remove before I can flip the plastic safety off. The covers can be left off the top or some holsters do not have them at all.
If you will be walking through thick brush, you might want a covering to avoid it being pulled out accidentally; otherwise it simply adds one more step to the process of deterring bear attacks. Both manufacturers have hip and chest holsters available.
Bottom line: Bear spray is an effective bear deterrent, if it is accessible and you can deploy it quickly. A large caliber gun will also stop a bear, if you are fast enough and proficient with it under pressure of an attack. The problem is, the bear may be dead afterward. If it is, and you are still alive, you now have to deal with the authorities.
Best Buy for the Best Bear Spray
There is a UDAP 7.9 oz. Bear Spray with Hip Holster
that has a different label than the one pictured above. It is packaged in a plastic bag, rather than a fancy "clam shell" package. The safety is not "glow in the dark". Inside are the exact same contents as the more expensive version. The clam shell packaging is for the convenience of store owners' displays (and you get to pay extra for it). You can see it by clicking here.
The Law is Not on Your Side
The Endangered Species Act is flawed and most often gives more weight to species protection than self-defense. In the summer of 2011 in North Idaho, “33-year-old Jeremy Hill, shot and killed a male grizzly bear at his home in May. He pleaded not guilty… to the accusation of killing the federally protected species. He claimed he was protecting his children when three bears entered his property near Porthill, Idaho.” (KXLY.com Sandpoint and Bonner Counties)
Local authorities concluded that Hill was justified in shooting the grizzly. Federal officials decided he was responsible for the illegal death of the grizzly he shot. They agreed to drop the charges if he would agree that he had violated the Endangered Species Act and to pay a $1,000 fine. (Thankfully, at the local FHA auction, Hill’s son’s farm animal was auctioned and re-auctioned several times by his compassionate neighbors to help raise funds to pay his fine.)
Mr. Hill shot the bear three times before she died. A canister of bear deterrent spray engaged in the sow bear’s direction would have sent her fleeing, cubs in tow. No questions would have been asked. The extreme discomfort would deter her return and would have avoided the troublesome court action and fine.
BUT HEY I mean what do these Biologist know and all these DIFFERENT STUDIES.... and after all we are talking about skiing trips. Who is gonna sling a rifle over their shoulder while skiing? and by the time you get if off of your shoulder , turn off the safety and chamber a round, well.... Dont' get me wrong I am not against guns, I am just showing you what the facts are when it comes to bear attacks.... They actually suggest that hunters carry bear spray with them...
My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood where English is the primary language.
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Last year I was working near the Continental Divide just south of Glacier National Park. Over the course of about two months I saw this cow moose, never saw a calf, at least a half a dozen times, in the same area. I came with-in a hundred yards of her each time and she never displayed any aggression. Then one morning I'm in the same area and see the cow moose again. This time, at about a hundred yards or so, she lays her ears back, with the hair standing up on the back of her neck, and trots in my direction. I thought, "what the hell's up with her?" and stepped back in the timber behind the largest tree I could find. She came charging in, reared and started striking with her front feet around either side of the tree. I'm ducking and dodging and thinking this
old girl is pretty serious. The can of UDAP, that is ALWAYS in the right-hand leg pocket of my Carhartt pants when I'm in the backcountry, comes to hand and I give her about a two or three second burst at about three feet distance. The effect is immediate and dramatic. The cow moose almost goes down, regains her feet and ricochets off about three trees on her way out of the timber. It worked very well and I didn't have "moose tracks" all over me! I have been treed by moose on one occasion and respect them as much as grizzly bears. Under certain circumstances they are more unpredictable than bears. You just never know how a moose will react and I was very glad to have your product in my pocket on that day. Thanks again for "saving my bacon!"
