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The relationship between sub-optimal boot geometry and BACKSEAT SKIING!  

post #1 of 127
Thread Starter 
Optimal boot alignment is the most important and literal foundation for good balance while on the hill.

Remember, boot can flex forward, but cannot flex back. Therefore rearward displacement of hips in longitudinal plane can only result in increased flexion at knees, and/or pressuring of tails with mad quad-burn.



Moderator Edit by Cirquerider: The original post has been significantly edited. For context, the original post read as follows:
Quote:
Is back-seat skiing 100% a function of bad boot geometry (forward lean, ramp angle, sizing, etc)???
post #2 of 127

No.

post #3 of 127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

No.



Oh really, so in ill-fit boots you can stay in the front seat?  How is that possible?

post #4 of 127

So, are you trying to start an argument or what??? Your OP is in no way 100% accurate, too many variables.

post #5 of 127



Back seat skiing is 99.99% bad technique.

 

Rant Alert!! - Unfortunately modern equipment lets people get away with it so they pick up bad habits early. Back in the day (old fart here) if you sat back on some 203 missile with a steel girder for a tail you found out real fast that was not a healthy thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



Oh really, so in ill-fit boots you can stay in the front seat?  How is that possible?

 Ill fitting boots don't help but if your shins aren't in contact with the front of the boot basically all the time then you are officially in the back seat. Unless the buckles are undone you should be able to stay in contact even in lousy fitting boots

 

 

post #6 of 127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2skier View Post

So, are you trying to start an argument or what??? Your OP is in no way 100% accurate, too many variables.



Actually, the apparaturs holding you to the slope and dictating your plane against gravitational and other forces is the boot clicked into the binding.

 

That IS the variable for choosing which seat you want to ride in.

post #7 of 127

This is not what you said in your OP.  There's a difference between riding in the back seat with a correct boot setup and riding in the back seat because of a poor boot setup.  Both are possible, obviously.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



Oh really, so in ill-fit boots you can stay in the front seat?  How is that possible?



 

post #8 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post





Oh really, so in ill-fit boots you can stay in the front seat?  How is that possible?


You compensate. Happens everyday. Not ideal, but very possible and a reality for many. Ideally your boots are balanced properly and allow you to move thru a complete range of motion effectively.

Also, it is often the case that skiers are in the backseat without boot issues, because they choose to be.
post #9 of 127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post


You compensate. Happens everyday. Not ideal, but very possible and a reality for many. Ideally your boots are balanced properly and allow you to move thru a complete range of motion effectively.
Also, it is often the case that skiers are in the backseat without boot issues, because they choose to be.


Oh, I didn't know some people enjoy leaning back.

 

 

What are the advantages to that?

post #10 of 127

I don't even buckle my top boot buckles most of the time. I have no current issues with back seat skiing.   It isn't the gear that causes the problem, but for less experienced skiers ill fitting gear can be a significant hindrance to overcoming the flawed technique.

post #11 of 127

Not trying to be mean here, but you asked if the back seat problem is 100% boot related.  The short accurate answer is "NO", as stated in the very first response to your OP.  It wasn't what you wanted to hear and so now you are disputing that.  If you "Think" you know the answer, why ask the question?  Trolling?  Also your posting history leaves me in some serious doubt as to your skiing competency and ability to pick equipment.  I'm not sure if you would know a good boot set-up if it jumped up and bit you in the ass.  Of course if it did that you would be startled into the front of the boot....  Problem solvedwink.gif.

 

In a really bad boot set-up, it will be difficult to ski well.  No argument there, however a skilled skier can compensate for a lot of miss-alignment.  Sorry about your boot problems, bad boots suck, but it sounds like a lot of your problems are your own fault and that you may well be the customer from hell.  Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one definition of insanity.  Keep doing what your doing if it's working for you or go find a new shop and take your business there.  Good luck buying a turn!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



Actually, the apparaturs holding you to the slope and dictating your plane against gravitational and other forces is the boot clicked into the binding.

 

That IS the variable for choosing which seat you want to ride in.



 

post #12 of 127
Thread Starter 

People often say "beginners" are in the back seat.  One of the things "beginners" have are ill-fitting boots and ill-geometrically-fit boots.  So didn't know if that was most of the issue.  Also probably there is the instinct to not lean DOWN a hill, but once they get over that....

post #13 of 127

I think that if a boot is a couple shell size to big...which I see everyday....it is then 100 percent a boot issue. To anyone who think differently go put on some boots that are to big and try to ski.

 

with that said tons of people ski on properly fitted boots and still ski back seat.

post #14 of 127

In deep powder on skis without rocker / early rise it can help keep your tips up (particularly at slower speeds).  Maybe not necessary in Utah or Colorado, but in Tahoe with Sierra Cement it can be.  That's about it as far as advantages go.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



Oh, I didn't know some people enjoy leaning back.

 

 

What are the advantages to that?



 

post #15 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

To anyone who think differently go put on some boots that are to big and try to ski.


Are you telling us that YOU couldn't handle most in bounds terrain reasonably well at a moderate pace while skiing in boots that don't fit you well?  Most good skiers can.  Bad fitting boots and poor gear is much more of a real problem for less experienced folks. There are people on this board that could easily lay down NASTAR Gold (but not Platinum?) or ski(but not totally kill) Outhouse at MJ with their boots completely unbuckled. 

 

It isn't that you can't ski in bad boots, it is that you can't ski and the bad boots prove it tee hee hee...(just an inside joke for BPA, not intended for OP)

post #16 of 127

By proper technique, very simple really...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post



Oh, I didn't know some people enjoy leaning back.

 

 

What are the advantages to that?



 

post #17 of 127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2skier View Post

 

PS- do you understand sarcasim?

 



Apparently not your's.

 

Sarcasm should be used with caution on internet boards.

post #18 of 127
Thread Starter 

 

To clear up some confusion...

 

I am not a beginner... I've been skiing for 20 years, and skied Alta 1 about six years before BW ever touched a pair of skis.

 

My boots are the right length, tight as hell, and finally fit.  I hope 135-flex HEAD Raptors are not "crappy" boots (even if they are insanely uncomfortable).  The forward lean is good via Ron LeMaster's static squat test.  Don't know about the ramp, but there's no room to put any more ramp in those boots.

 

 

 

 

I started this thread to simulate discussion.  I am not struggling with back-seat skiing.  Maybe some feel I lean back at times, but if that is true that certainly isn't because of loose boots.

post #19 of 127

The Chapter 7 video found here  http://tinyurl.com/2859fpb  has some basic information on how Ski boot set-up can affect fore/aft balance

 

 

post #20 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

In deep powder on skis without rocker / early rise it can help keep your tips up (particularly at slower speeds).  Maybe not necessary in Utah or Colorado, but in Tahoe with Sierra Cement it can be.  That's about it as far as advantages go.
 



 



Don't forget Wayne Wong's "slow dog noodle" bump technique.  Wait, that is probably best forgotten!

 

Wayne-Wong.jpg

 

70sVail.jpg

 

 

post #21 of 127

Sure, most boots don't set skiers up for good fore-aft alignment.  But then most boots are so soft that that doesn't matter much.  If you doubt your boots' fore-aft set-up, go skiing with your bootfitter, observe on snow, tweak the boots, and iterate until you're happy.

 

Most problems with fore-aft balance are due to technique.  Here's a quote by a strong skier and race coach here at epic that summarizes the frequency of fore-aft issues in skiing and in teaching.


http://www.epicski.com/t/92821/pulling-the-inside-foot-back/30#post_1205656

No, it supports the idea that short of a select few skiers and FIS racers, no one on the mountain is ever truly forward or even knows what it feels like to be skiing in a hips forward position - let alone how to teach it.

 

post #22 of 127

Between this and the underwear thread....

 

bb240ab1_not-sure-if-serious.jpeg

 

 

post #23 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

 

To clear up some confusion...

 

I am not a beginner... I've been skiing for 20 years, and skied Alta 1 about six years before BW ever touched a pair of skis.

 

My boots are the right length, tight as hell, and finally fit.  I hope 135-flex HEAD Raptors are not "crappy" boots (even if they are insanely uncomfortable).  The forward lean is good via Ron LeMaster's static squat test.  Don't know about the ramp, but there's no room to put any more ramp in those boots.

 

 

 

 

I started this thread to simulate discussion.  I am not struggling with back-seat skiing.  Maybe some feel I lean back at times, but if that is true that certainly isn't because of loose boots.




awesome put down. Sweet your parents could take you skiing! 

post #24 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


Are you telling us that YOU couldn't handle most in bounds terrain reasonably well at a moderate pace while skiing in boots that don't fit you well?  Most good skiers can.  Bad fitting boots and poor gear is much more of a real problem for less experienced folks. There are people on this board that could easily lay down NASTAR Gold (but not Platinum?) or ski(but not totally kill) Outhouse at MJ with their boots completely unbuckled. 

 

It isn't that you can't ski in bad boots, it is that you can't ski and the bad boots prove it tee hee hee...(just an inside joke for BPA, not intended for OP)



I almost always ski challenging conditions or am pushing it. There is no way I would be able to ski like I do in larger boots.

 

I question how hard you can ski with out your top buckles buckled.

post #25 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


I question how hard you can ski with out your top buckles buckled.


Unless I'm racing in a course I prefer them unbuckled most of the time, especially in the bumps.  I hate stiff boots.

 

post #26 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


Unless I'm racing in a course I prefer them unbuckled most of the time, especially in the bumps.  I hate stiff boots.

 



umm wouldnt you lose alot of edge grip side to side?

post #27 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

People often say "beginners" are in the back seat.  One of the things "beginners" have are ill-fitting boots and ill-geometrically-fit boots.  So didn't know if that was most of the issue.  Also probably there is the instinct to not lean DOWN a hill, but once they get over that....



I should know better, but here we go. Beginners are often in the backseat because it's a natural fear reaction to skis accelerating down the fall line even when boots fit well. Dropping their rear end behind their boots in a wedge is also a very natural reaction, just like pushing back in the drivers seat when braking hard in a car. The hardest thing to get a first timer to do is to keep their hips on top of their boots. So long as a person can rock their hips forward over the balls of their feet and pressure the front of the boot cuff, they can be shown how to ski without being in the back seat and, bonus! ski using their skeleton rather than muscles doing the bulk of the heavy lifting. There are a couple of great drills to sort this out, but given the  "100%" nature of a rhetorical OP, I'll pass as I'm pretty certain it doesn't matter. Have at it! smile.gif

post #28 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



umm wouldnt you lose alot of edge grip side to side?



Not as much as someone on telemark geartongue.gif  I still have the foot buckles pretty tight.

post #29 of 127


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski View Post

People often say "beginners" are in the back seat.  One of the things "beginners" have are ill-fitting boots and ill-geometrically-fit boots.  So didn't know if that was most of the issue.  Also probably there is the instinct to not lean DOWN a hill, but once they get over that....



Sometimes my skiing gets significantly worse the last run or two of the day, as I get tired.  If I notice, then I stop and figure out what is going wrong.  Most of the time it is because I am starting to shy away from the hill and my weight is back.  Not to the extent that would be "backseat" but enough to mess up my results.

 

I think "backing away from the hill" is pretty common.

 

Othertimes, I think equipment can be the root cause.  Too big --> lean back.  Too much forward lean --> butt back, break at the waist.

post #30 of 127
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post






awesome put down. Sweet your parents could take you skiing! 



 

Not trying to put you down buddy; especially not like that.

 

Was more trying to put my experience in perspective for poster who thought I was a beginner.

 

 

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › The relationship between sub-optimal boot geometry and BACKSEAT SKIING!