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Binding Adjustment

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

So I do almost all maintenance/tuning myself, and the only thing I don't do (aside from base grinds) is adjusting bindings. I'll adjust the DINs and stuff, but I mean setting new boots to bindings with forward pressure and all that stuff. I kinda know in theory how to do it, but is there a good resource somewhere to learn? Or maybe a class somewhere in the northeast?

Thanks.

post #2 of 23

There are binding manuals.

post #3 of 23
  1. Anybody have any ideas on where to find Marker ski binding manuals?  Specifically looking for the Marker MX 14.0 integrated bindings for K2 skis and/or how to set the length adjustment for boot length.  I understand how it all works, but not sure how to determine if the length is set correctly for the proper pressure, etc.
post #4 of 23

eek.gif This sounds dangerous. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcroslin View Post

  1. Anybody have any ideas on where to find Marker ski binding manuals?  Specifically looking for the Marker MX 14.0 integrated bindings for K2 skis and/or how to set the length adjustment for boot length.  I understand how it all works, but not sure how to determine if the length is set correctly for the proper pressure, etc.


 

post #5 of 23

The ski industry has a strange business model. Mounting a binding is not rocket science. It's easier than finish carpentry. It is not an issue for folks with the proper equipment if you have the right info. Unfortunately it's easier to find info on how to rebuild a car than mounting ski bindings. The standard answer is "it's an insurance and risk issue" that prevents binding manufacturers from publishing the information you need to set the toe pressure and other issues with bindings. I think it's bunk. Every set of bindings should come with a set of instructions and a template in the box with the bindings. Ski shops should be able to make a profit from selling ski bindings and also profit by mounting them for those who are not interested in mounting their own. Again it's not rocket science. It's basically drilling 8 holes in two skis and adjusting the toe pressure. The key is knowiing where to drill the holes. Why not help the buyer pick the spot to drill the hole and set the pressure? What's the bid deal?

post #6 of 23

There are some pretty good threads on TGR on this subject (for once I'm not being sarcastic in sending people over there to look). Check out some of the binding template threads or just search on the word "mount"

post #7 of 23

I guess some people think working on thier own equipment "sounds dangerous" because they are not competent enough to do thier own work or unwilling to assume the risks associated. 

 

I am sure ski binding manufacturers reluctance to share equipment information stems from either too many previous lawsuits from people who messed up thier own equipment and then sued the manufacturer or it is part of the industry plan to make some money for the local ski shop.  Or it is prabably both. 

 

Why do I not want to spend another $25 at the local shop on my new skis I just bought?  I spent $400 dollars on new boots a couple of weeks ago and asked to have my ski bindings checked to match the new boot (of the same physical sole length of 317mm).  I was there to pick up my skis that I had paid to have tuned up because I didn't want to wax them and sharpen them myself (not that I can't, just didn't have the time).  The shop charged me to check the bindings instead of throwing it in with the price of the new boots and the fact I had paid for the tuneup as well.  This was after they made it sound like they wouldn't charge me.  That really didn't sit well with me.  This is a shop that I have spent well over $5000 just this year buying gear from.  (Lets just say the bike shop side of the business took better care of me and my wife.)  I really do like the shop though.


The other reason: I like to know how to take care of my own gear.  I like working with my hands when I have time away from defending this country (I have spent the last 22 years in the Army - not looking for thanks, just explaining why I stay so busy).  If I can build a remote control helicopter that can actually and easily chop my head off, pack my own parachute and jump from an aircraft in flight from 23,000 feet with it, or change the fuel pump in my truck, or build a house, or change a light bulb; and I am not "sue the manufacturer" happy then I should be able to assume the risk and adjust my ski bindings on my own.  The ski industry freaks out over just changing the DIN setting which is increadibly easy.  I agree all of this is not for everyone and you must assume your own risk.  Driving a car is much more dangerous and look at who they give a drivers license too.

 

If I am assuming too much risk in my life, then I should probably pay someone $300 an hour to adjust my ski bindings ($25 for a five minute job - do the math) and I should also pay someone to change my lightbulbs in my house so I don't get electricuted.

 

Thanks for the comments supporting my desire to learn a new skill and I apoligize (at least a little) for ranting about it being SO dangerous.  It was only a 12 hour day today on 8 hours sleep in the last three days.  I really just want to learn something that I feel completly capable of performing.  Now to brag just because I can - I already got in a couple of awesome days on the slopes two weeks ago at Wolf Creek, CO during Veterans Day.  They had been open a month already.  I highly recommend that mountain at least once.

 

 

post #8 of 23

Boo Hoo. You guys just want to work on your own gear but the big bad ski industry won't let you... awww, that's sad. The big meanies.

 

Your Ford truck didn't come with instructions to change the head gasket, if you have a 'manual' it came from some intrepid third party who is making $$$ off selling the manual. There are enough people who work on cars to supply a demand, skiing isn't that popular [gasp]. If you are handy and good with mechanical stuff go ahead and play around with your bindings, they are incredibly simple mechanisms, 4 springs inside simple housings with a sliding adjustment track... it's not a remote controlled helicopter, it's a freakin' door knob.

 

I've got bad news for you: If you can't play around with an alpine ski binding for a few minutes and understand how they work and whats going on then you just are not very handy.

 

If you want to do your own work, do it. People KEEP saying "it's not Rocket Science" "it's not Brain Surgery", you are all correct, it's not. It's easy to figure out... so figure. it. out.

 

(or learn to use the SEARCH function, the same question get answered dozens of times every fall on every ski forum on the internet. Your ski binding isn't unique, those answers will work for you binding.  If you are reading this you have a computer with an internet connection. Use it.)

post #9 of 23

Boy, after your rant, I really want to bring my stuff to your shop.rolleyes.gif  You seem so customer focused.

 

To the OP. You should spend some time over at Teton Gravity Research. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/8-Tech-Talk

 

More do it youselfer's and fewer industry types trying to protect the keys to the vault.

 

A TGR search engine

 

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=013088392104881963655:goe34wkkkv8

 

Bring your best thick skin attitude when you go. While there are more willing to help types there, there are more flame throwers too. More like the real world.

 

 


Edited by wooley12 - 12/1/11 at 6:04am
post #10 of 23

I find it hilarious that you advise someone to 'bring a thick skin' to TGR yet are offended by my 'rant'. I'm not trying to 'protect' anything, I just answered a binding adjustment question 20 minutes ago... it gets tiring repeating the same answer over and over again, but that's OK. What's not 'OK' with me is calling out the Ski Industry for "hiding it's secrets" when the information is right at anyone with an internet connections finger tips. You want to do your own 'work? Cool, do a little of the work yourself and stop whining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post

Boy, after your rant, I really want to bring my stuff to your shop.rolleyes.gif  You seem so customer focused.



You're reading an internet thread looking for free advice on "how do I adjust my own bindings so I don't have to pay a mildly retarded shop monkey to do it for me" and you are trying to make me feel like I lost a customer?

 

 

 

 


Edited by Whiteroom - 12/1/11 at 6:27am
post #11 of 23
At this moment there are 5 different binding adjustment threads active on the front page of EpicSki. 5 different questions all with the same basic answer.
 
There are 1046 different THREADS if you use the search, I'm sure there at least as many on TGR, Alpine Zone, New Schoolers, WildSnow et al.  almost ALL of them have been answered, re-answered, debated and a consensus has been reached. What more do you want, other than having someone else do it for you? Which, if I do it, yes I would like to compensated... then you are a CUSTOMER and get treated nice.
 
yeah, I'm ranting and the Ski Industry keeps it's secrets in a vault...

 


Edited by Whiteroom - 12/1/11 at 8:34am
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveturner View Post

The ski industry has a strange business model. Mounting a binding is not rocket science. It's easier than finish carpentry. It is not an issue for folks with the proper equipment if you have the right info. Unfortunately it's easier to find info on how to rebuild a car than mounting ski bindings. The standard answer is "it's an insurance and risk issue" that prevents binding manufacturers from publishing the information you need to set the toe pressure and other issues with bindings. I think it's bunk. Every set of bindings should come with a set of instructions and a template in the box with the bindings. Ski shops should be able to make a profit from selling ski bindings and also profit by mounting them for those who are not interested in mounting their own. Again it's not rocket science. It's basically drilling 8 holes in two skis and adjusting the toe pressure. The key is knowiing where to drill the holes. Why not help the buyer pick the spot to drill the hole and set the pressure? What's the bid deal?



Right on.  The binding manuals exist.  They are on the web in pdf format.  Access is just limited.  I think it's a little present from the manufacturers to the franchised/licensed sellers of their brand. 

post #13 of 23

Ok I admit I never had to deal with anything but Fischer/Tyrolia (I was lucky enough or not depends how you look at this, that I was working for athletes with Fischer equipment), but if I remember correct, basic "manual" comes in box with every single binding. And I doubt it's much different with other manufacturers either. That basic manual is more then enough to safely mount and adjust your bindings. So even if I don't like Whiteroom's attitude, I totally agree with him. Nothing is hidden, and I doubt there's any plot behind all this ;)

post #14 of 23

I understand EXACTLY how to adjust my binding, the problem is the EXACT information to describe when the forward pressure is set correctly.  I know the EXACT screw and how to adjust it, the problem is knowing what that screw should display when the pressure is set correctly.  And for the record, most of the links that I have searched for and read are generic, or for a different style that is set up differently.  I can find the info on an older Marker style that is a different build type and even discussion of similiar styles, but with three different discriptions of what is correct.  Screw out 1 mm, screw flush, and screw in 1 mm, which sound minor differences but really aren't.  Based on my searches, I believe I have the answer.  But since I am the one asuming the risk, the info isn't certain enough for me.  If I can't find the info, I will take them to another shop to have the final adjustment set and I won't even cry about paying for it.  It would just be nice to know the correct answer for this type of binding. 

 

Oh, the other info I find on these websites is a lot of generally unfriendly people that really don't want to help, but just criticize.  They just fill their lives calling other people stupid.  As a kid, I was taught that is how they feel better about themselves.  If you feel frustrated because you feel I am stupid or too lazy to find an answer on my own, then I ask why do you waste the time to even call me stupid or lazy.  Your life would probably have been happier having not wasted your time on me. 

 

I hope everyone has a great day.

post #15 of 23

My problem was using the wrong search terms.  For Markers like mine, the adjustment screw sits flush with the boot in.  Wow, I wasn't stupid or lazy, just needed some education.  Fortunately, some other people feel like helping out the less educated.  Oh, and the shop that set up my wifes skis, did not set up the binding properly when she bought them.  They were great to us, but I think he was in to big a rush to get home as it was his shop and his wife was calling for dinner.

post #16 of 23

Whiteroom maybe it’s time to switch to decaff. If people want to set their own equipment up and subsequently injure themselves they have only themselves to blame right? Even if they had set it up correctly you can always call this into doubt and suggest that if only they had brought it to a professional such as you they wouldn’t have been hurt, as if the laying on of hands by a “certified” binding technician would have made a difference. Any mildly retarded monkey with an afternoon free to answer a few multiple choice questions online can aspire to be “certified” on a particular manufacturers binding line. My guess is that it’s a requirement of their insurance and by extension the retail shop’s insurance that the technicians undergo some form of training. Drilling correctly positioned holes in a ski with a jig is a no brainer and we both know that there are at most four adjustments to make on a correctly positioned binding; toe height, toe DIN, heel DIN and forward pressure. This having been said almost every one of us has had a mount f’d up by a “trained pro” employed by a retail shop…..go figure.

post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcroslin View Post

My problem was using the wrong search terms.


 

http://www.epicski.com/search.php?search=marker+binding+forward+pressure

 

Really ?? This sure is some well protected info, the ski industry should be ashamed of itself for keeping this vital information off the internet and out of the hands of DIY'ers... oh wait...

post #18 of 23

Just because somebody posted it, doesn't mean it is correct.  Just because there is a post in a forum, doesn't mean there is even an answer.  Just because it says MARKER, doesn't mean it is designed the same and therefore has the same instructions.  Does anyone realize the Marker MX 10.0 and MX 14.0 forward pressure adjustment screw has a mark on the screw head?  I haven't seen that mentioned on any of these posts.

 

If the binding manufacturer wasn't protecting the info, then we would be able to find the manufacturers instructions.  I would be able to find the info on Markers website.  So yes, it is kept secret.

 

By the way, not all of those posts from the last search give the same info, or any info at all for that matter.  I have had "ski shop professionals" screw up my ski gear in the past according to other "ski shop professionals". 

 

So who do I believe?  Some fellow skier, that may or may not know the correct answer?  Or some ski shop professional with an attitude and no real information?  Or this ski shop vs that ski shop with different info?  And as far as having my bindings tested for correct torque readings by a "ski shop professional," I haven't seen that even though I paid for it.  I have paid one "ski shop professional" to perform simple maitenance and the had to turn around and pay another shops "ski shop professional" to redo the work because it wasn't performed correctly.

 

So, yes I like to know the correct info, even if I am paying for the work to be performed by a "ski shop professional"

 

I am starting to think that some people don't have a clue what is the correct answer, they only know how to be sarcastic about others wanting to know the answer.

post #19 of 23

Follow the link I posted, open the first 10 threads... "flush with housing" gets said a lot, doesn't it?

 

 You equated adjusting a binding to changing a light bulb then made a flippant, snide and very, very flawed extrapolation on the hr rate associated with said binding adjustment. I find that insulting. I shouldn't, but I do. Seem to me that you take offense at being shown to be less than self-sufficient at using the search function. It would appear we each have some personality flaws. 

post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcroslin View Post

The shop charged me to check the bindings instead of throwing it in with the price of the new boots and the fact I had paid for the tuneup as well.

 

Actually, the shop didn't really charge you to check the bindings.  The shop charged you for assuming the liability for checking the bindings.  The industry is scared shitless about lawsuits, and indemnification is a pain.

 

That said, adjusting forward pressure is kind of a no-brainer.  If it's a screw, it's supposed to go flush.  If it's a scored tab or a windowed indicator, get it somewhere in the middle.  There's some anecdotally useful information, like err on the side of more pressure with Tyrolias.  

 

But bottom line, these are devices that are designed so that a high school drop out who's been huffing wax fumes all day (intentionally or unintentionally) can set them without straining a neuron.  To say they're not rocket science belittles not rocket science.

post #21 of 23

When someone who is educated in a particular mechanism searches for an answer, past experience allows them to make educated guesses and inferences to let them seek what they are looking for and know when they have found the correct answer. For the uneducated, those mileposts are not there, That's how the brain works.

post #22 of 23

UNIVERSAL METHOD FOR SETTING FORWARD PRESSURE

 

As a former ski tech, I'll tell you a universal, quick and dirty method to set your forward pressure if you don't know what you're doing, that should get you into the proper range.

 

This is easiest if your ski is locked into a good vise.  First, drop the DIN setting of your toe to the lower end of the range, then adjust the forward range of the heel to the point where you can barely get the boot into the binding.  Once you have the boot in the binding, push the toe sideways to the limit of its travel (before release) and see if it returns to center (hit the side of the boot hard and fast with the butt of your hand or with a rubber mallet).  If the boot returns to center, increase the forward pressure and repeat the test until the toe jams and the boot no longer returns to center (take the boot out to make the adjustment).  While the boot is jammed out of alignment, slowly reduce the forward pressure at the heel until the boot returns to center on its own (if you have a screw adjustment).  With that done, set your toe to the proper DIN setting for you, release and re-insert the boot in the binding, and do the same release check to ensure the toe is functioning properly and the boot returns to center up to the point of release. 

 

Of course, in the case of bindings like Tyrolias that don't use a screw adjustment for forward pressure you won't be able to play with the setting while the boot is in the binding.  You will need to take the boot out of the binding and move the heel back one notch, then put the boot back into the binding and repeat the release check until the toe begins returning to center.

 

This method will get you close enough (or exactly) to the correct forward pressure that you can ski safely, without having to know the setting nuances of a particular binding.


Edited by exracer - 12/6/11 at 11:04am
post #23 of 23
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