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...so my friend got taken out by a masters "racer"/racer dad at Nakiska - Page 2

post #31 of 59

Actually, I do have fat skis and love to get in the woods when I can.

Old school technique works really good there.

Thanks all for the support.

And Mahalo Nui to Atomicman for all the help with bindings last year.

Those old womens race stock LT-12s are some of the slippriest sticks I have ever laid on a hill.

 

Wanna race?

IMG_2463.JPG

post #32 of 59

I don't understand why dakine is getting heat.

 

"You got really lucky and you are not 'within your rights' to hit anyone ever."

 

He crashed hard enough to knock himself out because he did what he had to do to avoid hitting the little girl.

post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiitsbetter View Post

knee is done, out for the season on his first day, while waiting for his new boots. Old guy took him out from behind and skied away. Is the coward going to man up for what he did?



MFers need to slow the F down and this includes old men stuffed into lycra skin suits.

post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

I don't understand why dakine is getting heat.

 

"You got really lucky and you are not 'within your rights' to hit anyone ever."

 

He crashed hard enough to knock himself out because he did what he had to do to avoid hitting the little girl.



No problem with avoiding the collision at all. It's what you have to do. It's just the dead seriousness of old men (I'm one, I know) in lycra over something like NASTAR that seems odd. Apologies for the thread drift. I guess I just don't get the 'core-ness' of it all.

post #35 of 59

If one is going to do something regularly, it is better to do it with commitment and to do it well. True for cooking, friendship, work, music, Nastar, and pretty much everything else. At least for me, the core I am concerned with is MY core, not the public perception "core-ness."

post #36 of 59
[quote name="dakine">Keeps me young.[/quote]

Like my friend Lou Batori, eh? He's the 100-year-old guy who races at Nubs occasionally.
post #37 of 59
post #38 of 59

Why are we discussing race courses when the threadstarter's friend got hit while waiting for his new boots? This collision happened in a ski shop, not on a race course! Pay attention people!

post #39 of 59

I'm not saying to not try your best.  I'm just saying that skiers, even in a closed course, must always watch for unforeen obstacles including people.  At more competitive levels there should be spotters along blind spots for the competitors and shooing gapers away from disaster.  Glad the kid wasn't mangled, sorry that your run and your brain got scrambled.  But seeing it is NASTAR I'm absolutely sure that they would have given you another run had you been able to see her better and pull up before mangling yourself. 

post #40 of 59

Maybe we should require everyone racing in NASTAR, because hey, it's only NASTAR, to just skid their turns.  This will be much safer for the idiots and their children.

 

That said, as someone that works NASTAR each weekend, preventing little kids from skiing/riding into NASTAR is right up there with preventing kids from wanting presents or candy.  They are drawn to it.  It looks fun and it is.  Most of the skiing public isn't really thinking that the person racing is going to have a harder time stopping than they would (at their 10mph).  They might even be thinking that since they're a racer on better gear, they should be able to stop better.  I'm sure they can stop better, but it still take time and distance to stop.  Maybe like some of the posters here they think, it's only NASTAR.  The problem is the many racers are going between 35 and 45mph on a NASTAR course and have limited choices if they have to bail because of the course so they have to chose in a split second an alternative path, which might include; trees, gates, non-racer in the course or fence/rope and with any luck a little spot they can ski out

 

Another issue is NASTAR isn't really a money maker.  The Nationals are but not weekend NASTAR for SAM.  Once you get done paying the labor, there is very little left which is probably why NASTAR gives so much to the mountains.  Fencing is not cheap, gates aren't cheap and timing systems are OUTRAGEOUS!  That doens't mean safety should be neglected.  Where I work, because of safety concerns, they invested quite a bit in extra fencing so we can make it safer.  Don't forget that even on a course that is fenced/roped off, you need a spot for ski patrol to get it too.

 

Saying it's only NASTAR is like saying it's only the highway.  The highway isn't the autobahn and it surely isn't a closed NASCAR track, but if a little kids runs into traffic that is going 55mph, is it the drivers fault for hitting the kid they didn't see because they were paying attention to the big trucks driving next to them.  The kid didn't belong there and the driver had no reason to expect a kid there.  Same deal on a NASTAR course; the little kid isn't supposed to be there.  I'm looking at gates and my line.  Hopefully find a little speed somewhere.  Take your eyes off your line for a second and you're late to the next gate.  When I'm not on a race course, I do ski differently.

 

If anyone skis in while I'm racing and I have to bail from a NASTAR run, you're right.  It's only NASTAR, I'm not mad and I'll do my run again.  It's annoying and I might whine about it, but it really doesn't matter.  If I get hurt, or I hurt someone else because someone skied onto the course, I get mad. 

 

No body wants anyone to get hurt.  Especially a little kid.  This is all supposed to be fun.  I changed the way I ski because of the crazy things (OK stupid) I've seen people do while skiing/riding.  That doesn't mean that is the racers fault on a semi closed course if anyone wanders in.

 

Back to the OP,   What's the full story?  At this point, everyone is jumping on the "it's a racer" bandwagon and even the OP wasn't sure of that.  Maybe the OP will make another post in 2012 because so far he's only doing one a year.  It sucks that your friend got hurt and I'd be pissed if my friend got hurt, but what was he doing when he got hit?  We only got three sentences and a question from you.  We're on the second page of this thread and could use a little more info.  So far all you did was throw a turd in a punch bowl.

 

snowfalling.gif

Think snow.  We sure could use it.

 

Ken

 

 

post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


Back to the OP,   What's the full story?  At this point, everyone is jumping on the "it's a racer" bandwagon and even the OP wasn't sure of that.  Maybe the OP will make another post in 2012 because so far he's only doing one a year.  It sucks that your friend got hurt and I'd be pissed if my friend got hurt, but what was he doing when he got hit?  We only got three sentences and a question from you.  We're on the second page of this thread and could use a little more info.  So far all you did was throw a turd in a punch bowl.

 


 

Cutting across the NASTAR coursespit.gif  Love the punch!

post #42 of 59

I see it says he's waiting for his new boots...but I don't read it as saying he was not on the slopes.  Maybe he was waiting for them in the mail or something, just a way to say his season hadn't gotten going.  In any case, the OP hasn't even back again.  He had one post a year ago and that's it, then this.  Seems odd to me.  
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

Why are we discussing race courses when the threadstarter's friend got hit while waiting for his new boots? This collision happened in a ski shop, not on a race course! Pay attention people!



 

post #43 of 59

You're never safe from the master racers. Even while you wait for your new boots. Be very careful.

 

That's the moral of the story as I read it.

post #44 of 59

I was out of the US for a long time and I'm still surprised at all the changes. I guess NASTAR is now a religion.

post #45 of 59
Thread Starter 

yeah, I will admit, I wasn't there, I don't know the whole story, but it sucks. Again, not certain if it was a masters racer, or a racer dad, etc...

 

For me that is a big reason why I go ski touring more often than lift skiing now. I've definitely been thinking hard lately about all those times I have just mached down cattracks at the end of the day. 

 

But I have been doing some ski mountaineering races, where we climb up open runs and then ski as fast as possible down to the next checkpoint. So yeah, I will have to be careful.

 

When climbing up an open ski run, it seemed like every second person liked to make a turn right in front of me! It's a little unnerving haha

post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

"

Evidently the course was not closed.  Are you saying that you initially thought it was closed and were unaware that it was in fact not closed until he kid was 20' in front of you? Or are you saying that you did know it really was not closed and "raced hard" anyway because you assumed that no one could be so stupid?

 

Either way, you are responsible for the outcomes of your actions, even if you have no way of knowing what those consequences could be. You got really lucky and you are not "within your rights" to hit anyone ever.  I might  have made the same mistake, but it was a mistake, that you seem to not recognise that is troubling. You really need to check the course next time and only race hard if you know for sure it is closed and clear unless you are "ok with being a kid killer".

 

Boy, do I disagree with you.

OK with being a kid killer....WTF that is one stupid troll of a comment.

Nobody wants to hit a kid.

 

Legally, I paid good money and signed a wavier that allowed me to race.

Resort personnel cleared me to go and I went.

Once I received the "clear course" notification from the starter the only legal responsibility I had was to stay in the course area and race.

Any negligence was on the part of the resort and the kid's father.

Any sanctioning body in any form of racing is responsible for providing a clear track.

I imagine you don't have any racing background or you would know this.


By definition, racing is being at the very edge of control.

If you are not, you lose.

Even at the NASTAR level, those of us that care are serious as a heart attack about our runs.

Would you step out on a dragstrip in front of a 300 mph funny car then bitch that the driver didn't look.

 

If I had hit the kid I could have sued her dad for negligence and probably the resort as well.

Racing waviers do not cover gloss negligence.

I've never sued anyone and am not about to start now.

 

This is exactly correct...

" If you are on a race course you don't expect anyone to be there except the folks that are supposed to be there, and the unexpected can easily stall your brain.  By the time you recover from the freeze-up, it's too late. "
 

Police, what police?

ET on Busa lc.JPG

 

 

 

I have seen a whole lot from you blaming others and nothing that shows you think you should do anything differently.

 

You said you do not have the responsibility for skiing safely in the course  once given a formal "OK" by resort personnel. Eventhough you also characterized the resort as negligent in their handling of course safety. You said you are not responsible  for double check course conditions for safety or looking where you are going.

 

There is every reason to think the situation may come up again given the fact that the measures taken to close the course are evidently not sufficient. The fact that you went on to muse about suing the kid and the resort next time shows you are aware that this could come up again.

 

You also said you are not "ok wiht killing a kid". Good. If that is how you feel why not do something about it?

 

  • check the course out for safety
  • suggest improvements to the resort personnel
  • Stop racing at a resort your characterized as negligent in course safety.
  • Actually look where you are going near any obvious trouble spots

 

 


Edited by tromano - 11/30/11 at 9:05pm
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Maybe we should require everyone racing in NASTAR, because hey, it's only NASTAR, to just skid their turns.  This will be much safer for the idiots and their children...

 

Ken

 

 



I for one don't feel this way at all. Even if it's a  Nastar race, I'd ski as fast as I could.  The umbrage is getting pretty thick and peculiar. Hopefully everyone will be starting their season soon.


Edited by markojp - 11/30/11 at 10:04pm
post #48 of 59

IMO there are two kinds of skiers, those of us who ski a lot, understand the dangers and know the code, and the rest. Anybody can rent equipment, buy a ticket and go for it, and will be ignorant of any and all dangers, maybe apart from understanding that jumping off a chair can be painful and dangerous for themselves and other people. ( Some don't even get this and I've seen wires derail after two retards jumping off a chair. )

 

Educating the masses may be an exercise in futility, but I still try, one at a time. Ignorance isn't bliss.

post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post



I for one don't feel this way at all. Even if it's a  Nastar race, I'd ski as fast as I could.  The umbrage is getting pretty thick and peculiar. Hopefully everyone will be starting their season soon.



 Just to be clear, I did mean it tongue in cheek.

 


Edited by L&AirC - 12/1/11 at 3:04am
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiitsbetter View Post

yeah, I will admit, I wasn't there, I don't know the whole story, but it sucks. Again, not certain if it was a masters racer, or a racer dad, etc...

 

For me that is a big reason why I go ski touring more often than lift skiing now. I've definitely been thinking hard lately about all those times I have just mached down cattracks at the end of the day. 

 

But I have been doing some ski mountaineering races, where we climb up open runs and then ski as fast as possible down to the next checkpoint. So yeah, I will have to be careful.

 

When climbing up an open ski run, it seemed like every second person liked to make a turn right in front of me! It's a little unnerving haha


...or some jamoke that happened to be there the same day a Master's race is going on that has nothing to do with racing!  Maybe is was someone coming back from the BC with telemark skis. 

 

I'm sure no one went to the resort that day, or any other day, trying to see how much mahem they could cause.  Sh!t does happen.  That's why there is so much small print on a lift ticket.
 

 

 

post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

 

I have seen a whole lot from you blaming others and nothing that shows you think you should do anything differently.

 

You said you do not have the responsibility for skiing safely in the course  once given a formal "OK" by resort personnel. Eventhough you also characterized the resort as negligent in their handling of course safety. You said you are not responsible  for double check course conditions for safety or looking where you are going.

 

There is every reason to think the situation may come up again given the fact that the measures taken to close the course are evidently not sufficient. The fact that you went on to muse about suing the kid and the resort next time shows you are aware that this could come up again.

 

You also said you are not "ok wiht killing a kid". Good. If that is how you feel why not do something about it?

 

  • check the course out for safety
  • suggest improvements to the resort personnel
  • Stop racing at a resort your characterized as negligent in course safety.
  • Actually look where you are going near any obvious trouble spots

 

 


I'm not sure the words everyone are using means that.  I think it is a matter of expectation.  Before I say "Racer ready?", I and the Timer check to make sure the course is clear.  Sometimes the racer will be half way through the course and someone will DUCK THE ROPE and go in the race course.  If they can duck a rope to go off piste, why not here right?  But when I  say "Racer ready?" the racer's expectation is the course is clear.  I looked, they looked and the Timer looked.  The fact that dakine didn't hit the kids proves he's doing what you suggest; be safety conscience.

 

The last bullet is close to being an oxymoron.  It's a race course and is set up to be challenging, therefore is loaded with trouble spots.  Because racers are looking where they are going with more focus and determination than a 15 y/o on the latches of his girlfriend's bra, they can't look over their shoulder and uphill to makesure no one is skiing in.  Someone free skiing outside of a course can and should look over their shoulder as they are turning.  I do it all the time, outside of the race course.  Yo can't safely do that while racing.

 

Let's leave the race course a second and get on a zipperline mogul run.  Let's say a mogul rockstar is doing a zipperline run and is perfect control but is going fast.  The course happens to abutt a groomed trail.  As the person is zipping down the zipperline, someone that is out of control and shouldn't even be on the groomed trail, skis infront of them from the groomed part of the trail into the moguls.  Zipperdude/dudette goes to bail but things are happening too fast and they plow into the person that crossed infront of them.  You're saying it's the persons fault that was skiing in control on the moguls, right? They should have been looking behind themselves and uphill just in case, right?  Probably shouldn't ski at that resort anymore because everyone but the out of control person is at fault right?

 

On a race course, you can do the inspection, look down and see no one is on or near the course, see everything is in place for the best safety standards.  You start the run with a clear head knowing that everything was done ahead of time.  You will fous on your line and put all distractions aside for 23 seconds.  You need to do that to be safe, for others and yourself.  Someone will find a way to not see or ignore all the measure that were put in place and get on the course and that makes it the racer's fault.

 

With all that said, Madmads is right and we need to eduacte people if only one at a time.

 

 

post #52 of 59

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Maybe we should require everyone racing in NASTAR, because hey, it's only NASTAR, to just skid their turns.  This will be much safer for the idiots and their children...

 

Ken

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post



I for one don't feel this way at all. Even if it's a  Nastar race, I'd ski as fast as I could.  The umbrage is getting pretty thick and peculiar. Hopefully everyone will be starting their season soon.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post



 Just to be clear, I did mean it tongue in cheek.

 



We know you did.  My point (and I think you followed me) is that even when skiing balls out trying to kill it in NASTAR we have to still be able to watch for people meandering in to the gates.  It happens far too much for it to really be a shock to anyone that races fairly often.  Sure it sucks balls when it happens, but it is what it is..

post #53 of 59

The only way to stay safe on the slopes is to anticipate the unexpected, assume everyone is an idiot, use safety equipment and ski as defensively as possible, while at the same time having fun. On a race course the defensive skiing shouldn't be necessary. Maybe more spotters and better/more roping off is the only way to go. 

 

I love skiing early mornings on weekdays and don't really like teaching groups on weekends.

 

post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

2 of Murphy's laws

Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

 

 


That is signature material!

 

 

post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


I'm not sure the words everyone are using means that.  I think it is a matter of expectation.  Before I say "Racer ready?", I and the Timer check to make sure the course is clear.  Sometimes the racer will be half way through the course and someone will DUCK THE ROPE and go in the race course.  If they can duck a rope to go off piste, why not here right?  But when I  say "Racer ready?" the racer's expectation is the course is clear.  I looked, they looked and the Timer looked.  The fact that dakine didn't hit the kids proves he's doing what you suggest; be safety conscience.

 

The last bullet is close to being an oxymoron.  It's a race course and is set up to be challenging, therefore is loaded with trouble spots.  Because racers are looking where they are going with more focus and determination than a 15 y/o on the latches of his girlfriend's bra, they can't look over their shoulder and uphill to makesure no one is skiing in.  Someone free skiing outside of a course can and should look over their shoulder as they are turning.  I do it all the time, outside of the race course.  Yo can't safely do that while racing.

 

Let's leave the race course a second and get on a zipperline mogul run.  Let's say a mogul rockstar is doing a zipperline run and is perfect control but is going fast.  The course happens to abutt a groomed trail.  As the person is zipping down the zipperline, someone that is out of control and shouldn't even be on the groomed trail, skis infront of them from the groomed part of the trail into the moguls.  Zipperdude/dudette goes to bail but things are happening too fast and they plow into the person that crossed infront of them.  You're saying it's the persons fault that was skiing in control on the moguls, right? They should have been looking behind themselves and uphill just in case, right?  Probably shouldn't ski at that resort anymore because everyone but the out of control person is at fault right?

 

On a race course, you can do the inspection, look down and see no one is on or near the course, see everything is in place for the best safety standards.  You start the run with a clear head knowing that everything was done ahead of time.  You will fous on your line and put all distractions aside for 23 seconds.  You need to do that to be safe, for others and yourself.  Someone will find a way to not see or ignore all the measure that were put in place and get on the course and that makes it the racer's fault.

 

With all that said, Madmads is right and we need to eduacte people if only one at a time.

 

 

That is not the scenario being discussed here.

 

In the case that dakine described the rope was not ducked, they went around it. This is an example of an obvious trouble spot -- no rope. My comment was not an oxymoron. If you know there is no rope in this section of the course than a contentious person could look where they are going and recheck that it really is clear.

 

Again, I said look where you are going not all around and behind you.

 

I don't think this case has any parallels to free skiing vs. in the course. But in the case you described if skier A is out of control and fails to safely pass skier B then it would be skiers A's fault.

 

 

post #56 of 59

Just a bit more explanation then we should put this to bed.

Sorry for the way I hijacked this thread but I truly suspect the original post and wanted to show that there are two sides to every coin.

 

In my class, 65-69 Platinum, there are two other guys that I know well and race hard at Nubs.

We are Nationally ranled at #10, #12 and #14 (#13 is qcanoe's friend and I'd love to have him come and play).

If you think we are not running hard against each other for beers and glory you must be a type B.

 

I was running #14 in the course to my right.

He is much bigger than I am and I was ahead.

I couldn't bail right or he would hit me and the kid was coming from the left.

 

The last three gates are the worst time to have to change course.

If you let yourself get a little late, sit back and let your skis run pretty wild you can pick up some time here.

I was fully tucked, edge locked and way back when I saw the kid.

I don't remember but the timekeeper said I stood up and threw them sideways.

The skis reacted like good Volkl race skis do and pitched me up in the air where I did a loop and landed on my back and head.

 

Stuff like this happens and I don't really blame anyone for this stackup of circumstances.

It would have been nice if the timekeeper had been watching the course and given me a heads up over the PA as he does when there are course incursions.

He was having computer issues and not really watching the race.

So it goes.

 

One of my greatest thrills is skiing with my grandkids.

They are very schooled in collision advoidance.

 

And for all you guys that hoot on NASTAR...come on up and put your skis where you mouth is.

Give me 1/2% handicap for each year of age difference and I'll take all the action ya got!

Oh Ya...don't wear one of those stupid Lycra suits either.

They really don't work and are only worn by fat old guys to show off their form.

As we say in the drag racing world "Money talks and BS walks"

 

post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Just a bit more explanation then we should put this to bed.

Sorry for the way I hijacked this thread but I truly suspect the original post and wanted to show that there are two sides to every coin.

 

In my class, 65-69 Platinum, there are two other guys that I know well and race hard at Nubs.

We are Nationally ranled at #10, #12 and #14 (#13 is qcanoe's friend and I'd love to have him come and play).

If you think we are not running hard against each other for beers and glory you must be a type B.

 

I was running #14 in the course to my right.

He is much bigger than I am and I was ahead.

I couldn't bail right or he would hit me and the kid was coming from the left.

 

The last three gates are the worst time to have to change course.

If you let yourself get a little late, sit back and let your skis run pretty wild you can pick up some time here.

I was fully tucked, edge locked and way back when I saw the kid.

I don't remember but the timekeeper said I stood up and threw them sideways.

The skis reacted like good Volkl race skis do and pitched me up in the air where I did a loop and landed on my back and head.

 

Stuff like this happens and I don't really blame anyone for this stackup of circumstances.

It would have been nice if the timekeeper had been watching the course and given me a heads up over the PA as he does when there are course incursions.

He was having computer issues and not really watching the race.

So it goes.

 

One of my greatest thrills is skiing with my grandkids.

They are very schooled in collision advoidance.

 

And for all you guys that hoot on NASTAR...come on up and put your skis where you mouth is.

Give me 1/2% handicap for each year of age difference and I'll take all the action ya got!

Oh Ya...don't wear one of those stupid Lycra suits either.

They really don't work and are only worn by fat old guys to show off their form.

As we say in the drag racing world "Money talks and BS walks"

 

icon14.gif

 

OK, I think I follow you now, probably would in a course.. age 47 and a tad shy of platinum these daysredface.gif.  Gold is pretty much a given for me though when I let them run.  My NASTAR name is the same as my EpicSki name so you can tale a look and see, silvers first time back after a 10 year ski hiatus, golds the next time I tried.  Haven't run in 2 years but my skills are getting closer to what they were back in the day even though I only get out a handful of times per season these days.  I can honestly say I did beat the local pace setter more than once back in the early 80s and I weighed under 120.  He wasn't that great though. 

 

However, I would race you for drinks anyway. 
 

beercheer.gif

 

 

However, if you guys are THAT competitive, how can I be sure you won't pay some little kid to wander in to the course during my run?spit.gif

post #58 of 59

I think you need to accept responsibility for those that do not accept responsibility for themselves and it all works just fine.  Otherwise it is just frustration. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post


You have outdone yourself here with ridiculously absurd liberalism. Where and when is it going to stop!

 

Have you lost your mind or ever been in a race course?  How the frick can you race a course if you are constantly worrying about and looking to see who is going to collide with you!

 

YA CAN'T  GET A DAMN CLUE!

 

I came over a pitch in GS last year to find a moron chick on a snowboard sitting next to the next gate in the middle of the course that was roped off, signed and bannered and she though I ws an asshole,. At least I didn't kill her of myself.

 

Sjhe was on a slope she could not handle and somehow wondered onto the training course and sat right in the track over a knoll!



 



 

post #59 of 59


WOW! mayday.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by handhdad View Post

I think you need to accept responsibility for those that do not accept responsibility for themselves and it all works just fine.  Otherwise it is just frustration. 

 



 



 

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