Choppy powder - Page 2

at 5'8 your 160 are too short. 

I know we had this discusion already but keep the 160 to learn trick on and for hardpack and get a pair of 175ish 100-110 mm skis for softer snow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamadam 

 

This sounds somewhat like the typical intermediate park and ride, static carving technique, sure it might work, but there's a whole lot more you can get out of your skis in terms of control and performance. But I suspect that I've probably misunderstood what you're trying to say here.

My intended points are a little speed or momentum is your friend in crud and powder.  The deeper 3D snow slows you down more than a groomer does so there is a tendency for skiers to complete their turns too round losing momentum which aids the turn entry. 

Less skilled skiers also tend to over initiate or pivot their turn entries causing the skis to move more sideways through the crud rather than forward which is not a good thing.  

Flexion extension movements should be fluid and continuous to avoid any park n ride which doesn't work well in crud or powder as the skier gets stuck inside causing a loss of balance and poor turn transitions.  A good crud/powder skier can easily change movement patterns from a flexion extension type move when a bit more energy is needed, as in the video clip above, because of slower speeds or shallower pitches.  As the pitch increases and the speed and forces pick up, managing those forces requires more of an extension retraction movements or a flexion to change edges rather than an extension.  This absorbs the energy in the turn finish and redistributes it higher into the new turn to bend the ski and create a berm to turn against.  Using this type movement the skier's upper body looks relatively motionless as the legs reach out to the sides and retract as the skis pass under the hips and torso in the transitions.  Owning this whole spectrum of flexion extension movements and calling on the appropriate movements, as the situation dictates, is key to expert skiing

I hope this clarifies a bit my intention?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman 

 

My intended points are a little speed or momentum is your friend in crud and powder.  The deeper 3D snow slows you down more than a groomer does so there is a tendency for skiers to complete their turns too round losing momentum which aids the turn entry. 

 

Less skilled skiers also tend to over initiate or pivot their turn entries causing the skis to move more sideways through the crud rather than forward which is not a good thing.  

 

Flexion extension movements should be fluid and continuous to avoid any park n ride which doesn't work well in crud or powder as the skier gets stuck inside causing a loss of balance and poor turn transitions.  A good crud/powder skier can easily change movement patterns from a flexion extension type move when a bit more energy is needed, as in the video clip above, because of slower speeds or shallower pitches.  As the pitch increases and the speed and forces pick up, managing those forces requires more of an extension retraction movements or a flexion to change edges rather than an extension.  This absorbs the energy in the turn finish and redistributes it higher into the new turn to bend the ski and create a berm to turn against.  Using this type movement the skier's upper body looks relatively motionless as the legs reach out to the sides and retract as the skis pass under the hips and torso in the transitions.  Owning this whole spectrum of flexion extension movements and calling on the appropriate movements, as the situation dictates, is key to expert skiing

 

I hope this clarifies a bit my intention?
 

 

That about does it, this is what I've been getting at as well.

Sigh, putting 'pop' in inverted commas didn't seem to help. To clarify, I am not describing a jump turn. Your skis are unweighted strongly and aimed only slightly downhill. Gravity will do the rest.  You still spend a fair a bit of time with your skis in the snow above the fall line. Yes, I agree skiing fast in crud is easier. Yes, I agree that skiing retraction/extension turns is easier and more efficient when going faster in crud.

However, that statement was from an instructional point of view on an introduction to crud. I would bring generally bring students on terrain that is not too steep and they will probably be going slower than they would on the groomers in the beginning. The slower speed and/ or gentler (not flat) terrain  will require a stronger unweighting movement to help the skis initiate the next turn. That is one of (not the only) the major differences in crud skiing. The snow resistance can make a skier feel like they are stuck and can't start a new turn.

It is still somewhat tiring to perform I won't deny. Mostly because it is an exaggeration of what is required. As they gain confidence and competency even in that same lesson, they will learn to reduce the sudden intensity of that extension to unweight the skis. They learn to even it out a bit more so it becomes progressive but still remaining strong unweighting movement. Their speed will probably also increase then. Down the road, you can then introduce a retraction/extension movement to unweight the skis between turns.  It's not impossible but I find it a pretty hard ask on a student to learn crud by going fast and learning retraction/extension turns straight up. I prefer a gradual and comfortable introduction to a new skill and terrain rather than throwing them into the deep end. But perhaps my approach may be perceived as too passive by some. 

Read this: http://www.epicski.com/t/103844/crudology

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamadam 

The vast majority of pros in the ski movies are technically excellent skiers. Yes there are exceptions, but you'll find that a lot of pros grew up racing and have that technical background. I think there are some other threads on here that have argued that point to death already though.

 

Why would you go slow? Usually (personally, anyway) its a function of too much snow on a not-steep-enough slope.

 

Also, I'm not a fan of the term "pop" either. I only used it in response the the first post where it was mentioned, and I'm not saying you should be making jump turns, or any kind of quick jerky movement, just that in deeper snow where there's more resistance acting against turning your skis, an exaggerated movement will make your skiing better.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBdNtE7a0n8

 

There's a quick ski tip video talking about skiing in powder/crud. FYI, Josh Foster is a level 4 examiner and had been on the last two Canadian Interski teams. I believe that fits your definition of a good skier.

 

I didn't mean to say that those pros aren't good skiers, just that I wouldn't personally aspire to turn like a lot of them, I'd love to be able to cork 7 off cliffs like a lot of them, but some of the powder skiing in movies can be straight up ugly. I got to ski with quite a few pros this summer in Chile, some were much more impressive than others. Don't particularly like that video of Josh Foster either, he's smooth, but I am sure he could ski smoother if he wasn't jumping around all over the place.

Probably best to just stop this now, I am never going to be convinced that extending at the start of the turn is a good idea, let alone in an 'exaggerated' fashion.

Any examples?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim. 


I didn't mean to say that those pros aren't good skiers, just that I wouldn't personally aspire to turn like a lot of them, I'd love to be able to cork 7 off cliffs like a lot of them, but some of the powder skiing in movies can be straight up ugly.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigatoh 

 

However, that statement was from an instructional point of view on an introduction to crud. I would bring generally bring students on terrain that is not too steep and they will probably be going slower than they would on the groomers in the beginning. The slower speed and/ or gentler (not flat) terrain  will require a stronger unweighting movement to help the skis initiate the next turn. That is one of (not the only) the major differences in crud skiing. The snow resistance can make a skier feel like they are stuck and can't start a new turn.

 

It is still somewhat tiring to perform I won't deny. Mostly because it is an exaggeration of what is required. As they gain confidence and competency even in that same lesson, they will learn to reduce the sudden intensity of that extension to unweight the skis. They learn to even it out a bit more so it becomes progressive but still remaining strong unweighting movement. Their speed will probably also increase then. Down the road, you can then introduce a retraction/extension movement to unweight the skis between turns.  It's not impossible but I find it a pretty hard ask on a student to learn crud by going fast and learning retraction/extension turns straight up. I prefer a gradual and comfortable introduction to a new skill and terrain rather than throwing them into the deep end. But perhaps my approach may be perceived as too passive by some. 

 

 

I might suggest that, for those new to heavy/deep crud, patience is more important than unweighting. My approach is even more passive, and requires no extension, no "pop."

My basic, go to initiation involves moving the COM down the hill and tipping the skis onto or toward their downhill edges. This is easy and effective on the groom, in the bumps, in the crud and in powder. It is simple. It works without any unweighting at all, or the complexity associated with either up or down unweighting. In powder and crud, it's necessary to tip the skis and wait for the turn. And it will happen, but probably not as fast as the new crud skier thinks it should. Hence the need for low speeds and flatter slopes.

Many skiers, particularly if they're more tentative, want to haul the skis around as quickly as possible, so they push and twist and hop and add as much rotary as they can. And you're right. If you want a lot of rotary in your crud turns, you have to unweight somehow. I do it frequently, especially when trees are involved!

But for someone just learning the crud, simplicity and patience are key. Use open, semi-flat slopes, don't finish the turns too much, then tip the skis down the hill again. Teach the student to go down the hill rather than across it. Do less. Once our crud novice is balanced and tipping the skis well, then we can turn up the volume. We can add to what they've learned. We can add retraction, rebound, extension, float, twist. We can add pitch, speed and more turn completion. Build on the foundation we've constructed. But to get started? Make the moves simple. Teach patience rather than extension with a powerful muscular twist. That move has its place, but we can add it later. And the student never has to unlearn anything.
 

Good advice jhcooley!

All the above advice has some merit, there is no black or white technique for skiing crud.

Deciding which tactic to use as far as active extension or active retraction is very dependent on the amount of energy you are getting out of the snow and skis.  So at slower speeds and flatter pitches we may need to add a bit of oomph to change edges and load the skis enough to bend them and move some snow.  At higher speeds and/or steeper pitches we may need to absorb excess energy and redirect it in a more useful direction.

Imagine standing on a trampoline statically and deciding you want to bounce....what do you do?  This is the same movement as needed on flatter slopes and slower speeds to get some rebound and energy going.  Now once you get bouncing your muscular input can subside a bit by using the energy of the trampoline.  At the other end, imagine you aggressively bounced as high as you could and now you want to stop....what do you do?  This is kinda what we do skiing when the forces or energy coming at us is greater than we need or want.  The movements change to absorb the excess so as to keep the skis on/in the snow through transitions.  It all comes down to using the most appropriate tactic for the situation.  The ski tip by Josh Foster is viable for the pitch and speed and conditions he was using but may not be appropriate for steeper and deeper conditions. Tactics change as the skiing environment dictates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhcooley 

I might suggest that, for those new to heavy/deep crud, patience is more important than unweighting. My approach is even more passive, and requires no extension, no "pop."

 

My basic, go to initiation involves moving the COM down the hill and tipping the skis onto or toward their downhill edges. This is easy and effective on the groom, in the bumps, in the crud and in powder. It is simple. It works without any unweighting at all, or the complexity associated with either up or down unweighting. In powder and crud, it's necessary to tip the skis and wait for the turn. And it will happen, but probably not as fast as the new crud skier thinks it should. Hence the need for low speeds and flatter slopes.

 

But for someone just learning the crud, simplicity and patience are key. Use open, semi-flat slopes, don't finish the turns too much, then tip the skis down the hill again. Teach the student to go down the hill rather than across it. Do less. Once our crud novice is balanced and tipping the skis well, then we can turn up the volume. We can add to what they've learned. We can add retraction, rebound, extension, float, twist. We can add pitch, speed and more turn completion. Build on the foundation we've constructed. But to get started? Make the moves simple. Teach patience rather than extension with a powerful muscular twist. That move has its place, but we can add it later. And the student never has to unlearn anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigatoh 

Sigh, putting 'pop' in inverted commas didn't seem to help. To clarify, I am not describing a jump turn. Your skis are unweighted strongly and aimed only slightly downhill. Gravity will do the rest.  You still spend a fair a bit of time with your skis in the snow above the fall line. 

Perhaps it is a difference in terminology but the mention of extension or pop in this thread seems to bring to mind a muscular twist. The movement of extension I am attempting to describe has only the slightest rotary force to help start the new turn. But it is definitely an unweighting movement. 

I could be off the mark here but it sounds like we're both advocates of patience in the initiation. However, what actual bodily movements do you propose to 'go to initiation involves moving the COM down the hill and tipping the skis onto or toward their downhill edges'? 

I have been reading this thread with interest, as choppy powder and crud are what we usually end of skiing for 95% of powder days anyway, unless you're lucky enough to get several first tracks.

Anyway, I'm think "popping" and tipping the skis down the fall line with a forward COM go completely hand in hand. If you're keeping the skis pointed down the fall and you maintain decent speed, and your turns are rhythmic and smooth (no pushing your tails out and slamming into crud piles sideways), the "pop" will just happen as the energy from the turn is released during the transition.

Take a look at the skier from :14 to :35 in this video (the others are not as good of examples...don't pay attention to them). He is making good energetic turns, leading with the tips down the fall line, keeping forward and aggressive. He is clearly popping/unweighting in the transitions, not to allow body torque, but to help initiate the next energetic turn by momentarily floating atop the crud. This is what I try to look like in crud and powder:

In other words, this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman 

Watch good crud skiers ski crud and take notice what they are and are NOT doing (see "Crudology" clips by Barnes).  A good crud skier does not over exert themselves rather they incline accurately against a solid platform to bend the ski into an arc.  They ride the platform or berm made by the tipped and bending ski by standing strongly against it.  When it is time to release the turn, the good crud skier relaxes his/her legs to allow the inertia to carry them across their skis to a new tipped platform with little to no active leg steering or rotary effort.  They carry good speed and momentum through their turns using the "GO" intent to keep the skis moving forward.  

(The bold part would the "pop" Gigatoh mentions...am I right, Gig?)
 

Does this capture the meaning of both camps?

Not that impressed with the skiing in this clip as the excessive popping demonstrated is causing imbalances which could be negated with more accurate flexion to absorb the energy instead of allowing it to catapult the skier out of the snow.  This is an example of where tactics need to change from an active extension movement to lighten the skis to a more proactive flexion to control the energy at the end of the turn and redirect it into the top of the new turn, keeping the skis in the snow.  That POP will be negated with accurate relaxation of the legs or even an active retraction of the legs if needed.

^ I get that. The guy really is pretty bouncy. So how much rebound/pop in the transition should we allow? A little? None? Should we try to absorb as much as possible with thorough flexion, and seek to keep adequate weight down on the skis into the new turn? I always thought a little extra float in the transition was a good thing - just seems to make the turn softer - but hey, I like this discussion.

Is that John Foster clip from earlier close? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBdNtE7a0n8. He seems a little more calculated, but I don't see a lot of flexion going on (in fact he is calling for extension in the transition).

So then...perhaps actively popping with extension is appropriate under mellower circumstances, but when the energy levels make that pop too pronounced, it's time to start absorbing the energy via proactive flexion as you state. (Edit: I think that is almost exactly what you said a few posts ago, but it just clicked!) 

Do you know of any clips of what you would consider good technical crud/choppy powder skiing under "real life" circumstances? Vids really help clarify these things. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by drainbamage 

If I could choose, I would rather be a skier like Tanner Hall or one of those guys people here say don't have proper skiing technique when it comes to actual skiing (not park pfff) than someone who worries about having perfect technique and fluidity and really keeps to lower speeds and never skies jumps or cliffs (reserved non-aggressive skier)

 

Now maybe the proper technique and/or "pretty skiing" you speak of is really a necassary step in skiing the steep crud with good speed and control, it doesn't matter to me at this point so.

 

Thanks for the insight

A lot of what is being written here has to do with a philosophy of GO rather than STOP. To move smoothly downhill with minimal pivot on turn entry = GO.

It's not a matter of "perfect" technique as much as it is functional technique.

Pivoting in crud is difficult. It requires unweighting of some kind. Up unweighting is intuitively obvious and it certainly allows the desired steering. Sometimes it's very useful and all good skiers have it in their skill set.

For many (but not all), up unweighting is accompanied by an uphill movement that feels secure and puts on the brakes a bit. It's a move in the direction of STOP. Uphill is not necessarily required to up unweight, but many people move uphill or push off their downhill ski in order to up unweight. Up unweighting requires some kind of platform to work against, which also feels good. But moving uphill is a STOP movement. Up unweightng without also moving uphill is a perfectly good GO movement, but it requires skill.

To ski well and safely at speed doesn't require "pretty" technique, but it does require effective technique. To do it without beating yourself up requires a willingness to go rather than stop, to absorb rather than push, to move with your skis rather than being behind them or attempting to muscle them sideways. If you tip it and bend it, it's easier than twisting and skidding, especially in soft snow.

The fluid ones are not necessarily the slow ones.

Some cliff jumpers just crater on impact and say they did the drop. The good ones have accurate balance, nail the landing, and make clean arcs in the powder as they ski away. Which do you want to be?

Some extreme skiers are smooth and fast; some are athletic and bounce a lot. Which do you want to be?

Do you want to make it look hard, or do you want to make it look easy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhcooley 

A lot of what is being written here has to do with a philosophy of GO rather than STOP. To move smoothly downhill with minimal pivot on turn entry = GO.

 

It's not a matter of "perfect" technique as much as it is functional technique.

 

Pivoting in crud is difficult. It requires unweighting of some kind. Up unweighting is intuitively obvious and it certainly allows the desired steering. Sometimes it's very useful and all good skiers have it in their skill set.

 

For many (but not all), up unweighting is accompanied by an uphill movement that feels secure and puts on the brakes a bit. It's a move in the direction of STOP. Uphill is not necessarily required to up unweight, but many people move uphill or push off their downhill ski in order to up unweight. Up unweighting requires some kind of platform to work against, which also feels good. But moving uphill is a STOP movement. Up unweightng without also moving uphill is a perfectly good GO movement, but it requires skill.

 

To ski well and safely at speed doesn't require "pretty" technique, but it does require effective technique. To do it without beating yourself up requires a willingness to go rather than stop, to absorb rather than push, to move with your skis rather than being behind them or attempting to muscle them sideways. If you tip it and bend it, it's easier than twisting and skidding, especially in soft snow.

 

The fluid ones are not necessarily the slow ones.

 

Some cliff jumpers just crater on impact and say they did the drop. The good ones have accurate balance, nail the landing, and make clean arcs in the powder as they ski away. Which do you want to be?

 

Some extreme skiers are smooth and fast; some are athletic and bounce a lot. Which do you want to be?

 

Do you want to make it look hard, or do you want to make it look easy?

Good reading and learning Mr Cooley and Bud.  Bob Barnes video was good.  In analyzing myself through these comments and pictures, realize I am parking on a lot of turns instead of pointing them and going Down the hill, COM and all.  Thanks guys enjoying your comments etc.

Instruction is not just for technique advice. A good instructor has a bag of mental imagery, drills, and the ability to psych you up. I think we had this discussion last year, but on a slow day the 2.5 hour clinics Alta can be virtually a private lesson for $50-60.

Anyway, I have no pace speaking about technique, but for me the following kind of thinking helps:

In crud it is easy to get caught up thinking "how the heck do I get my skis back around to transition to the next turn when the snow is going to fight me"?

Instead I picture myself above the snow (even if I'm not) and think "as gravity pulls me down the fall line what do I do to create the platform at the bottom of the turn from which I can transition to the next turn."? and as I do that I picture a stable centered upper body and gradually building pressure against the snow through the turn and then pulling away from it at the bottom  - and the snow is working for me.

Hope that helps.

A lot of good advice here.  I'm personally not a big fan of "twisting" the skis, but it obviously works for some folks, and there are many ways to skin a cat.

There's a couple of things that come into play when skiing deeper softer snow and cut-up clump-forming snow.  Put too much weight on one ski and it sinks and trips you up.  It took me a few days to learn how to ski deep snow, after being able to ski anything icy that had a good run-out.  One mind trick was to think of both skis as a single surface.  Skiing wet heavy soft crud piles are a bit of a problem when the ski dials up more turn than the surface can support.  Longer skis and longer turn radius will help with that.

You can learn to ski without lessons, but you will learn anything faster with a good teacher. 

Despite all of the above,  I do think your skis are hurting your progress.  At 135 lbs, junior skis at 160 cm might be a little short for a powder/crud/deep snow ski, but they are not stiff enough by a long shot imho.  When your tips dig into the snow they too-easily bend into too much of a turn.  You need a little more support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

A lot of good advice here.  I'm personally not a big fan of "twisting" the skis, but it obviously works for some folks, and there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

There's a couple of things that come into play when skiing deeper softer snow and cut-up clump-forming snow.  Put too much weight on one ski and it sinks and trips you up.  It took me a few days to learn how to ski deep snow, after being able to ski anything icy that had a good run-out.  One mind trick was to think of both skis as a single surface.  Skiing wet heavy soft crud piles are a bit of a problem when the ski dials up more turn than the surface can support.  Longer skis and longer turn radius will help with that.

 

You can learn to ski without lessons, but you will learn anything faster with a good teacher. 

 

Despite all of the above,  I do think your skis are hurting your progress.  At 135 lbs, junior skis at 160 cm might be a little short for a powder/crud/deep snow ski, but they are not stiff enough by a long shot imho.  When your tips dig into the snow they too-easily bend into too much of a turn.  You need a little more support.

He is 5'8 as well.

At snowbird someone who is 5'8 is on a 180 min as their crud ski.
 

When you are floating you are not turning and you have to deal with re-entry.  Keep your skis on/in the snow more and you have better opportunity to control your path.  If you watch the skiers in the "pro skier training" you will notice that many times that "pop" they get throws them off balance because they do not manage it well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman 

When you are floating you are not turning and you have to deal with re-entry.  Keep your skis on/in the snow more and you have better opportunity to control your path.  If you watch the skiers in the "pro skier training" you will notice that many times that "pop" they get throws them off balance because they do not manage it well.

who says you can not float though turns? In fact I think its ideal to float though turns even in crud.  also dealing with reentry which IMO doesnt really exist is easier on big boards. 

Do not know what you mean by pro skier training or how they are getting popped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drainbamage 

Thanks for the advice, BushWackerin, I made another thread in the Ski Gear telling my entire situation so it's pretty long but yeah here it is: http://www.epicski.com/t/107187/what-are-my-skis-worth#post_1391282 so if you want to tell me what you think would be best based off of where I am at and point me in the right direction that would be superb

 

Thanks

I still havent seen any video but to be honest alot of these guys are going to adamantly disagree with me, and IMO there is no compromise on this. I ski best in crud on 190cm 100-110 mm skis I am also a very good skier but in this case you just have to step up to longer ski to be able to ski crud like you want.

your light but pretty tall you want some thing that is soft lenght wise, but since its your only skis you do not want it to wide. also I remember reading that you want to learn how to do trick and in all honesty you should probably keep your current skis for that as what i am going to recommend are going to be pretty long.

Some skis I think you should look at, none of these skis are particularly good at crud, but longer lenghts will be huge step up.

177cm Blizzard "the one"

178cm Rossi Schmitar

175cm Icelantic Oracle disregard that its is women's skis its pretty much perfect for ya

177cm Atomic Blog

there are tons out there really.

100mm underfoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman 

When you are floating you are not turning and you have to deal with re-entry.  Keep your skis on/in the snow more and you have better opportunity to control your path.  If you watch the skiers in the "pro skier training" you will notice that many times that "pop" they get throws them off balance because they do not manage it well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

who says you can not float though turns? In fact I think its ideal to float though turns even in crud.  also dealing with reentry which IMO doesnt really exist is easier on big boards. 

 

Do not know what you mean by pro skier training or how they are getting popped.

 

 

First, no one said you couldn't float through turns you seem to react defensively even when you haven't been attacked.

Second, and more important I think I see a semantic issue here. You and Bud have different interpretations of the word float. Bud uses the term to refer to a period of disconnection with the snow surface. If you are disconnected from the snow surface then you become a moving body that is unaffected by outside forces and consequently you will move in a straight line. Only when connected to the snow surface can you affect your path. Hence, by Bud's use of the word float it would be impossible to 'float through a turn' even though he never said that.

I am interested to have you further explain just what you mean when you use the phrase "float through turns".

fom

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiveJazz 

^ I get that. The guy really is pretty bouncy. So how much rebound/pop in the transition should we allow? A little? None? Should we try to absorb as much as possible with thorough flexion, and seek to keep adequate weight down on the skis into the new turn? I always thought a little extra float in the transition was a good thing - just seems to make the turn softer - but hey, I like this discussion.

 

Is that John Foster clip from earlier close? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBdNtE7a0n8. He seems a little more calculated, but I don't see a lot of flexion going on (in fact he is calling for extension in the transition).

 

So then...perhaps actively popping with extension is appropriate under mellower circumstances, but when the energy levels make that pop too pronounced, it's time to start absorbing the energy via proactive flexion as you state. (Edit: I think that is almost exactly what you said a few posts ago, but it just clicked!) 

 

Do you know of any clips of what you would consider good technical crud/choppy powder skiing under "real life" circumstances? Vids really help clarify these things. 

Check out Bob Barnes "crudology" clips here on Epicski for some good visuals!

Sorry Josh, wasn't responding to any posts you had made?  I was referring to the "pop" to unweight the skis as demonstrated in the "Pro Skier Training" youtube video posted above and suggest it is undesirable as speed and forces increase.  As FOM posted above, when your skis are disconnected from the snow there is no deflection and therefore no direction change or turning occurring.  So I was associating "float" with disconnect from snow surface.

His post didn't seem at all defensive to me.  He was merely disagreeing with a statement.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoldman 

First, no one said you couldn't float through turns you seem to react defensively even when you haven't been attacked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman 

Check out Bob Barnes "crudology" clips here on Epicski for some good visuals!

 

Sorry Josh, wasn't responding to any posts you had made?  I was referring to the "pop" to unweight the skis as demonstrated in the "Pro Skier Training" youtube video posted above and suggest it is undesirable as speed and forces increase.  As FOM posted above, when your skis are disconnected from the snow there is no deflection and therefore no direction change or turning occurring.  So I was associating "float" with disconnect from snow surface.

 

I agree about the excessive pop in this video posted. The skier is a good for sure, and I think what we need to make sure about here is that there is a measure of degree in how to approach this style. Some unweighting is good. And although we clearly have overused the word "pop" in this thread and took it probably further than the poster who used it intended, there is a difference in pop and a smooth unweighting that allows for an easy transition into the next turn when you are worried about the snow changing underneath you. We can see in the video where the skier has some excess movement in the upper body where when coming down from his "pop" his body lurches forward and he has to flex his back to re-stabilize. To me this seems to show just an over-exaggeration of the movement and not enough core flexion through the turn. As a bump skier, I prefer to use my legs more to absorb the changing conditions. Just my 2 cents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman 

Check out Bob Barnes "crudology" clips here on Epicski for some good visuals!

 

Sorry Josh, wasn't responding to any posts you had made?  I was referring to the "pop" to unweight the skis as demonstrated in the "Pro Skier Training" youtube video posted above and suggest it is undesirable as speed and forces increase.  As FOM posted above, when your skis are disconnected from the snow there is no deflection and therefore no direction change or turning occurring.  So I was associating "float" with disconnect from snow surface.

 

yeah sorry for the misinterpretation I was thinking of ski floating in powder and not being disconnected. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayT 

His post didn't seem at all defensive to me.  He was merely disagreeing with a statement.
 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawea 

I agree about the excessive pop in this video posted. The skier is a good for sure, and I think what we need to make sure about here is that there is a measure of degree in how to approach this style. Some unweighting is good. And although we clearly have overused the word "pop" in this thread and took it probably further than the poster who used it intended.

Thanks! It seems like I opened a pandora's box from using that word and will be very cautious of doing so in future even for teaching purposes. Perhaps this might help clear some things (and hopefully not open another can of worms!).

Beginner crud skier - flexion/ and strong extension between turns. Moving at slower speeds and uses this strong extension movement to make it easier to initiate the turn in challenging snow conditions.

Intermediate crud skier - flexion/ and controlled extension turns. Speed increases and they learn to control the amount of extension required to minimise effort and remain snow contact. 

Advanced crud skier - Retraction/ extension turns. They learn to absorb and manipulate the high forces applied on them when going at fast speeds. 

Expert crud skier - An enlightened level of skiing almost nearing godhood :) They combine the use of both flexion/ extension and retraction/extension turns to suit speed, terrain and conditions.