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Expectations vs reality after first true custom fit?

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

First offI need to inform you that I started a thread on the general Ski Gear Discussion page, but realized it may have been better suited here.  If it helps understand my scenario, any interested will find it here:

 

      http://www.epicski.com/t/106683/expand-metatarsal-buckle-on-dalbello-boss-id

 

I wanted to move the thread here as of course it's much more on topic.  I had a number of questions and some good advice was given, though I had a few more thoughts since my original posting.  Not meaning to double post here though...just trying to re-focus.

 

Obviously, as one who has never experienced a proper custom boot fit before, there are a lot of questions.  One near the top of my list is the 'pain' question.  Of course, pain is highly subjective and relative to the skier can vary widely.  I suppose what I'm wondering here is more along the lines of what marks the threshold of acceptable security in a fit, without discomfort for you?  Or should "proper" boot fit always feel painful, tight, and uncomfortable?

 

Bear in mind I'm not a hard charger at all.  A level 7 on a good day with very short bursts of 7.5-8 peeking out here and there.  I can ski blacks, but still don't enjoy the steep and usually take things rather slowly - at least compared to my fellow skiers who always seem to rail down those things.  So I'm not trying to get a race fit or anything close.  But it seems a well fit boot should allow one to step in, get situated, strap down, and comfortably ski all day yes?  When I've heard tell of guys routinely releasing all their buckles on the lift, just to cinch them all down again at the top sounds strange...and certainly not what I want to be doing if it can be helped.

 

I assume that a proper fit will likely require multiple trips back to my fitter for fine tuning and work.  But what I don't want to do is imagine all sorts of potential 'phantom' issues that may not truly be issues at all.  With the new boot set-up I have now for example, Bud mentioned it might be too small a shell for my needs?  Although we went through the whole process of a shell fit and such.  It seems to be fairly simple to pinpoint a fit that's too large, but how do you know if you're too small?

 

I have a feeling I'm coming at all of this with a huge GAPPER tattoo'ed across my forehead!  :D  I don't mean to be overtly slow at getting this whole boot thing, and I thank you all in advance for advice past and future.  Feel free to roast me if I' not thinking as I should about a good fit!

 

Once more, thanks to all, and a great weekend!

 

Brian~

post #2 of 16

a good fit should be comfortably snug, and a bit tighter then you think you want at first, but no big pressure points.   Like a firm handshake...

 

every put on a wet suit?   it feels too snug on land, but works great in the water?  same thing.

 

 

are they too tight?  odds are no.

post #3 of 16

You can't compare apples to oranges nor sneaker to a ski boot! A ski boot is among one of the tightest fitting athletic footwear along with Skating boots, rock climbing shoe, gymnastic slippers, Cycling shoes, wet suit booties....Did I miss anything?

 

Jeffrey Rich C. Ped

http://www.usorthoticcenter.com

post #4 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion View Post

a good fit should be comfortably snug, and a bit tighter then you think you want at first, but no big pressure points.   Like a firm handshake...

 

every put on a wet suit?   it feels too snug on land, but works great in the water?  same thing.

 

are they too tight?  odds are no.

No, sadly I've never donned a wet suit (or a dry suit or any suit of an aquatic flavor).  I wondered if the sizing might be a touch on the small side particularly after Bud's comment on my original thread: "If you have jammed your foot in a 25.5 you are certainly pushing the envelop of doable!"  Also, boot shells aren't mad ein half sizes is that correct - but the liners are?  So even if the boot is marked 255, it would be the same outer shell as a 250, but fit with a thinner and therefore larger volume 255 liner?

 

I'm so green at the well-fit boot thing that I just don't have any frame of reference to know what is normal and what isn't yet.  I'm a bit more worried about it that perhaps I should be as the season starts, although I did damage moth big toenails, and lost my left last season (ended the season for me actually) from the pain.  Though from what I understand now, that was caused by a boot that was too large, and allowed my feet to slide and smash into the toe boxes.  Not fun when it's the top of the tram at the Bird and you have a nice long 3,000 foot adventure ahead of you.  :)
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbalance View Post

You can't compare apples to oranges nor sneaker to a ski boot! A ski boot is among one of the tightest fitting athletic footwear along with Skating boots, rock climbing shoe, gymnastic slippers, Cycling shoes, wet suit booties....Did I miss anything?

 

Jeffrey Rich C. Ped

http://www.usorthoticcenter.com


I understand that a boot fit will feel very different from street shoes.  I'm in flip flops much of the time, or very comfortable dress shoes for work, so the sorts of pressure I experienced during fitting were a surprise to be sure.   It still seems like perhaps I've got some pressure points as I put them on (my metatarsals question of the original post being one), but I know I'll need to get out and ride them on the mountain to get a more accurate sense of exactly what is going on.

 

I suppose my question is more along the lines of - what is normal and expected?  As these boots use Dalbello's ID intuition thermo liner, should I still expect a full break-in period of multiple days week or months of use before they feel "better" or "right"?  Or does the thermo process completely/mostly completely eliminate pack out?  I believe these liners can be cooked again if needed yes?  Do you gain/loose anything of significance after repeated trips to the oven (assuming the tech doesn't overcook and shrink them of course)?

 

Are there areas that are always problematic when fitting alpine boots, regardless of the skier, such as the metatarsals, toes, navicular or ankles?  Working in optometric medicine myself, I find it all very interesting.  Thanks again for the insight!

 

Brian~

post #5 of 16

heating the liner just speeds up the normal pack out process that will happen anyways.  (just 1-3 days, rather then 1-10 days)   reheating the liner will not do much

 

pressure points are unique as feet.  no "normal" issues

 

as long as the shell fit is 5-15mm, you will be fine. As long as you can wear the boots longer and longer each day, you are fine. (but only 60 min of skiing is not that unusual, and theyn remove them)   dont worry sounds like this boot is fine for you, and the boot fitting issues you have are above the knee  :)

post #6 of 16
Thread Starter 

I've got more than just boot issues above the knee I can tell you!  haha  :D

 

Thanks though Dave, I appreciate your insight.  I don't want to be running back to my fitter a day or two out trying to chase problems that may or may not be real.  To be clear, pain and numbness aren't normal right?  At least not as you're skiing (as opposed to sitting on the couch - boots on) is that correct?  I'm just waiting for a little more padding on our base and then I'll get out and see what my feet tell me.  Thanks again!

 

B~

post #7 of 16

Pain and a numb foot are NOT part of  a good fitting ski boot. Which toe or toes get numb first? A skier with a numb foot is skiing at a 30% deficit.

 

Jeffrey S. Rich C. Ped

http://www.usorthoticcenter.com

post #8 of 16


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post

   When I've heard tell of guys routinely releasing all their buckles on the lift, just to cinch them all down again at the top sounds strange...and certainly not what I want to be doing if it can be helped.

 

 

Brian~


    On a 4 buckle boot, there is only one buckle which needs to be tight---the one around your ankle, it is the only buckle which will hold your heel/foot into the rear of the shell/liner.  Tighten it until it would hurts---then back off with the micro adjustment until you could wear it comfortably but it is as tight as it could be, (a customer of mine once said he thought he had his tight because it was hard to snap shut).  Tighten the power strap very securely  (around the liner only, if the shell will let you )and the top buckle snugly

 

    Again, don't tighten the instep buckle---it will cut off circulation and innervation and your feet will get numb( if it will stay hooked in the ladder that's tight enough ).   If your feet still numb up with the buckles as described above, then your boots could be to narrow across the metatarsals or the instep might we to low for your foot.

 

mike

 

 

post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post


 


    On a 4 buckle boot, there is only one buckle which needs to be tight---the one around your ankle, it is the only buckle which will hold your heel/foot into the rear of the shell/liner.  Tighten it until it would hurts---then back off with the micro adjustment until you could wear it comfortably but it is as tight as it could be, (a customer of mine once said he thought he had his tight because it was hard to snap shut).  Tighten the power strap very securely  (around the liner only, if the shell will let you )and the top buckle snugly

 

    Again, don't tighten the instep buckle---it will cut off circulation and innervation and your feet will get numb( if it will stay hooked in the ladder that's tight enough ).   If your feet still numb up with the buckles as described above, then your boots could be to narrow across the metatarsals or the instep might we to low for your foot.

 

mike

 

 


The Boss is a three buckle, but I'll assume the mid buckle would function as the ankle buckle?

 

Boss.jpg

As the boot fits now, it's difficult to clasp on the first (longest) clip across the instep. I can get the second clip across the middle, but it feels like it's cutting off the circulation just standing in the shop (not skiing in them yet), and the top only to the first catch as well.  All of the buckles micros are adjusted out as far as they will go.  The power strap on this boot fits around the rear shell and the top of the tongue, so no means of getting it around the liner directly.

 

Concerning the boot board and the foot bed I was fit with, they both seem pretty thin directly under the instep.

 

Boot Board and Bed.jpg

 

I wonder is there enough material there to safely remove some and allow a little more volume in the shell/liner there if needed after a few days out?  I'd almost be afraid of a cracked or broken board and possibly foot bed...but admittedly I don't know what sort of forces they are designed for, or how much custom work can safely be done before inducing failure.  If indeed the worst case scenario is realized after many days and re-adjustments have been made, but the boot for whatever reason still just doesn't feel right, what are the best options?  I don't assume that you can go ask to be fit in a different boot at no additional cost can you?  Particularly as these have already been customized to my feet (more or less)...  I just don't know what the contingency might be in that scenario.  But, I'm optimistic things will sort themselves out in due course.  Thanks once more for all the insight and experience.  You guys are great!!

 

Brian~

post #10 of 16

Hello,

The cuff of the innerboot can be stretched wider by about an inch or more by an experienced bootfitter, no need to remove any padding. Yes your footbed can be lowered. The DFP insole comes with a lot of material that can be ground thinner. Take a photo of the footbeds bottom then I would know better. The insole can be thinned to 1/16th to 3/16 thick under the ball of the foot and the heel, that should yield more instep room. The boots instep can be stretched higher, unfortunately many shops don't have an instep stretching tool. Plus to stretch the instep up the shell has to be really hot- 325' degrees and the instep is not whats heated. A Masterbootfitter would know how to do this. The boot board can be ground lower but caution, if too low, the footbed and foot sole will collapse into the side walls of the boot, I call this the "Taco effect" ...ouch. The innerboots tongue can be opened and material shaved away using a flex shaft grinder and then stitched back up to give even more room. No need to give up on the boot, maybe your boot fitter? We teach all these techniques at Masterfit University so you should probably checkout  out one of the Masterboot Fitters at  www.bootfitters.com

 

Jeffrey Rich C. Ped

http://www.usorthoticcenter.com

 

 

 

post #11 of 16

PS the footbed bottom surface can be ground thin exposing the top cover. I'm color blind what ever the top cover is , yellow, red or orange, they all look the same to me. It is orange? When you look at the bottom of the insole the top cover can be exposed completely in forefoot area and a quarter to a half dollar size area i the heel.

 

Jeffrey Rich C. Ped

http://www.usorthoticcenter.com

 

 

post #12 of 16
Thread Starter 

Thanks Jeffrey,

 

It sounds like I'll have a lot more adaptability than I thought I might at first - that's highly encouraging.  The DFP footbeds are a light orange, and I haven't had any work done on them so far - save just being trimmed down slightly to fit in my liners.  The boot boards just looked very thin already, so I wasn't sure how much could safely be done to them as well.  Right now, I'm just praying for snow now so I can get these silly things out there and see what they tell me moving down the fall line.  I looked up our bootfitters associated with Masterfit as well and was surprised that in all of Utah, we've got only two?!  Vermont's got like fifty-bajillion and we get two?!?!  :)  Anyway, I know where to go and who to talk to if I need anything fine tuned now.  Can't begin to thank you enough!

 

Best!

 

Brian~

post #13 of 16
Thanx,keep us posted. Remember left turns are followed by right turns unless stopping or falling.

Jeffrey Rich C. PED

http://www.usorthoticcenter.com
post #14 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbalance View Post

Thanx,keep us posted. Remember left turns are followed by right turns unless stopping or falling.
Jeffrey Rich C. PED
http://www.usorthoticcenter.com


What the...You've clearly been watching me ski recently I see!  hehehe  I just wanna traverse the entire mountain - what's so wrong with that?!  I suppose next you'll tell me my bitchin fluorescent onesy ski suit from 1989 isn't in fashion anymore either ?!  Sheesh!!  roflmao.gif

post #15 of 16

If you like big traverses check out Mt. Bachelor in Bend, Oregon. Is a volcano so it one big left or Right traverses from the back side.

 

Jeffrey Rich C. PED

http://www.usorthoticcenter.com

post #16 of 16
Thread Starter 

Man, I haven't been to Bend in y-e-a-r-s!  My folks used to have an RV campsite membership there.  Two things I remember about it:  The lava cave was cool!  (My claustrophobic mother didn't share my excitement however), and the mosquitoes.  Damn the mosquitoes were bad there.  Never skied Bend though.  One for the bucket list!  Thanks again for all your knowledge and help Jeff and co!

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