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Which DIY Liner Heat Molding Technique is Best? - Page 2

post #31 of 72

You didn't ruffle my feathers... but you still don't seem to understand the difference between 'FREE Advice' and 'Direct Marketing'.

 

You do spend your time giving advice and teaching others 'how to'... but your business, or at least parts of your business, are built on providing supplies to DIY'ers. Your advice is direct marketing for the products you sell. That is NOT wrong, there is absolutely no shame in that, but it is beneficial to you in a way that should be easy to measure and monitor.

 

Nobody is posting in 'Ask The Boot Guys' in order to spend $$$ with the folks who reply, you can't mail someone a '6th toe punch'. Sure, others read the posts and are effected, but you have to admit that it's a different game than what you're playing.

 

 

post #32 of 72

OP,

 Wash your feet damn it. Geez! Grab your thin socks. Then go quickly to THE most reputable Lange dealer in a 200 mile radius and let it be done the way Lange intended it to be done. It worked very well the first time through for me on my RX130s. This is not a place to"save money" in your skiing gear. That poor basturd  I mean the dealer is no doubt well versed in this drill. If this dealer has been selling Langes for a long time. Bring a liquid gift that will not freeze for them with you. Because it is absolutely criminal the way the old Lange liners fit stock. Heck  Who knows as a result you might like to ski more and justify the purchase of more gear for yourself. You might even go so far as to ask yourself " I wonder how much I could get for one of my kidneys? " Good luck and don't ski into anyone I know, or will know.

post #33 of 72

I got my answer in a PM from Cirque this morning.  It seems someone who I won't name, but who is a boot-fitter and a prominent poster who I generally respect, decided to, IMO, abuse his post deletion privileges.  Presumably the reason was to protect his "professional interests".  IMO, this is not the intended function of post deletion.  Regardless of what some of us may think of the actions/motivations of the OP, he did come here asking for advice and I thought that one of the primary functions of Epic was to be a community that helps each other.  No one deleted the snarky posts by Sierra Jim....  Only the helpful professional post by Dr Balance.  I think that the OP got plenty of feedback and education on the etiquette of using pros as a resource and then bypassing them in favor of the Internet.  Ironically this "feedback" came from the Internet and not entirely from pros.

 

For the record the post wasn't deleted by Jim.  You know who you are and IMO you should be ashamed.  The free advise posted on the Internet is no "real" competition for what you do and most of us here know this.  I think everyone has the right to mess up their own gear all by themselves.  As a pro-painter, I get pimped for free advice and competitive bids all the time from people who I know have no intention of hiring me.  I have found over 20 years that the best thing I can do to help myself is give them what they ask for if I have the time, or politely decline if I don't.  I have found that people who have painted their own houses at least once make much better clients down the road.  People remember who was straight with them and I have had some, not many, of the people who tried to "work" me come around later.

 

One of the problems that seems to keep coming up with Epic is the signal to noise ratio...  The amount of inaccurate information and flat out opinion from non-pros that gets posted here.  That is part of what you get with the Internet and it falls to the reader to separate the wheat from the chaff.  I want to know...  How does deleting a helpful/relevant post from from a pro help solve this "problem"?  If I was Dr. Balance, I would be less likely to post again after this. 

 

I fully expect to see this post deleted soon....  Enjoy it while it's still here!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

Post 9 seems to be missing from when I looked before.  I was from an actual boot fitter and was helpful and appeared accurate.  Was it removed by the poster, or by an admin?  I find someone who goes to the local shop and tries stuff on, gets free advice, and then buys on-line and seeks advice on-line a bit suspect, but it is necessary to remove helpful content?



 

post #34 of 72

I'm enjoying it, along with the rest of this thread.  It's been a real barn burner.

post #35 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

 

Try this technique.

It worked for a burrito, which is what a liner is - a burrito in a taco.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t4uN0WSJz4&feature=related

 

 



roflmao.gifThis would save me so much time making breakfast.  I have to try this.

 

post #36 of 72

I've learned that's it's never just about the liners.

 

I had a concern about reheating my intuition liners on my own, after healing from a broken leg and sporting a new bone ridge that was hurting when I tried my boots on (Full Tilt).  I solicited a little advice from Ask the Boot Guys, received some advice, and followed up by going to a local bootfitter, Brant at Grass Roots Outdoor in Everett, WA. 

 

Very very very good thing to do, he not only did the heat molding but worked with me on a few other padding points to reduce the pressure on the bone ridge.  He had also noticed my alignment (if that's the right term) was off and helped me do the cant adjustment on my boots, as well as recommended getting rid of the forward lean shim.

 

All for a measly $25 fee.

 

So I'm on the side of supporting bootfitters.  Yes, I'll probably buy boots or liners there when it's time for me to buy boots or liners, probably get skis there too.     Whether or not the advice obtained on the internet is valid or not, there is no subsitute for a trained bootfiter who can look at the whole picture of how boots are fitting.  I could not have seen what he saw, even if I knew what to look for.

 

 

 


Edited by DesiredUsername - 11/11/11 at 12:13pm
post #37 of 72

I work with a bootfitter who refuses to sell boots.

He attempts to put me in the best shell for my foot without being constrained to sell only boots sold in the bootfitters shop.

For this reason I think going to an independent bootfitter is much more likely to result in what you wnat than going to a shop employed bootfitter.

How is that for stirring a thread that has already gone very wrong!

From the tone of some of the bootfitter posts you might think these guys are eligible for the Nobel Prize or something.

post #38 of 72

Well, Whiteroom, I guess we are talking about different things. Of course I understand the difference, but your 'FREE' makes you all sound like you wish to be painted as perfect altruistic saints. rolleyes.gif

 

In my little mind, I was speaking (and a bit tongue in check) to how so unjust it was for a customer to spend the time of two bootfitters mining for advice/information and not compensating them while it's seemingly OK to do the same thing to others and in other forms....not about the Boot Fitters forum.

 

As TetonPowderJunction illustrated it happens in other (probably all) fields and is a fact of life....and gets old, no matter where you are in the perceived pecking order. Try to keep positive and hope it comes back to you in some fashion and also have awesome karma.

post #39 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

No flames for this post.  However the OP was clearly a dick for consulting with two bootfitters that he considers "reputable" and then buying on the web.  Being a cheapskate is really a poor excuse.  And all for a  measly $20 th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif

 

Alex 

  

 

I agree unless they knew his intent.  Doubt it, but it's possible.  The ski shop I deal with has given me information on how to do things and even checked my work, on things I didn't purchase from them.  I do buy primarily from them (4 pairs of skis, 2 bindings, 1 helmet so far this year) and have sent a few friends and put them in the newsletter I do for my club calling out their sales. 

 

 

post #40 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post

 

Thoughtful post, Ken.  I'll look you up at Crotchet this season (Friday evenings).

 

Read



That would be great.  Sent you a PM on how to find me on Friday nights.

 

Maybe this thread has a silver lining smile.gif

 

post #41 of 72

Sounds like the OP got a handle on it, for the DIY'ers in the crowd i found the following link helpful -  http://www.wildsnow.com/72/bootfitting-for-backcountry-skiing/

post #42 of 72

...and yet another useful link with instruction and discussion of the various techniques as well as their +'s & -'s: 

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/170547-Rice-Molding-Instructions-A-La-Intuition

post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

Nobody is posting in 'Ask The Boot Guys' in order to spend $$$ with the folks who reply, you can't mail someone a '6th toe punch'. Sure, others read the posts and are effected, but you have to admit that it's a different game than what you're playing.

 

 


Not to take your comment out of context with your reply to Terry, but many people have hooked up on the Forum with a bootfitter through Ask the Boot Guys, and many more have become aware of what the potential benefits of professional alignment are.  The "Boot Guys" are not just fitters who punch and grind boots; they are specialists in orthotics, sports kinetics and how to enable people to achieve top performance by making their equipment work for them, rather than having them overcome equipment issues.   They even have the skills to deal with injuries and physical problems that otherwise make skiing difficult or impossible.  Their services are valued by top athletes, ski pros, aspiring experts, and disabled  skiers alike.

 

Many members and readers of Epicski would never have awareness or contact to that level of equipment refinement without the forum.  Getting back to the original question, the problem was never with the OP.  Intuition liners has made their product readily available direct to the consumer, outside the manufacturer-wholesaler-retail channel.  Information is available on how to mold these liners, and in truth, heating and shaping liners is not a big part of the business of any of the bootfitters on Epicski.  The risk to the doing this yourself is that you will get a poor fit or ruin the liner.  Buying through the retail channel gives you a guarantee. Some people will take that risk, but i

 

t is still a sensitive issue to ask for free advise then use that to cut out retailers and fitters, and that is the reason I moved this thread out of the Boot Guys.  I seriously doubt that anyone is going to learn on the internet how to assess a skier's physiology, mold and shape a custom footbed, set an angle on a boot sole, plate the sole and grind the lugs to DIN specs.   Isn't that really the level of professional that is helping on Ask the Boot Guys? 

 

So what is the difference between selling wax, files, stands, grinders and other DIY equipment, and backing that up with good advise, and the boot counter-part of selling pads, liners, off--the-shelf footbeds, tongue pads, and maybe even fitting aids?  None of that stuff requires the expertise of alignment.   Just like the bootfitters, Slidewright sees people use his advise and buy on the cheap on the internet.  Enough people seem to understand the value of his service and goodwill  to buy from him.  He offers DIY information and tutorials without any expectation of return, yet is often rewarded with return business.

 

I see more similarities than differences.  I don't think the "game" is so different as you may think.

 


Edited by Cirquerider - 11/13/11 at 9:32pm
post #44 of 72

Remember the OP was asking how to custom mold "STOCK" liners not Intuitions, which was the content of the deleted post and did not serve to help the OP with his query.

post #45 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Remember the OP was asking how to custom mold "STOCK" liners not Intuitions, which was the content of the deleted post and did not serve to help the OP with his query.


Funny of all the things to delete......

 

post #46 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Remember the OP was asking how to custom mold "STOCK" liners not Intuitions, which was the content of the deleted post and did not serve to help the OP with his query.



If his boot comes with heat moldable thermo liners don't understand why it should matter if they're brand x Stock Thermo Liners or Intuition's Thermo Liners.

post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonorchid View Post



If his boot comes with heat moldable thermo liners don't understand why it should matter if they're brand x Stock Thermo Liners or Intuition's Thermo Liners.



Have you ever seen an Intuition liner? It is VERY different from a stock liner that "molds" with temperature. Like the difference between a daisy and an orchid. Sorry, best analogy I could come up with given your user name.

post #48 of 72

...other then a boot on display in a ski shop, no. I thought it looked like the same as stock liners in other high end boot's. Pardon my naivety but i have been under the impression shops use the same techniques and tools (convection oven, blower's etc), to mold all brands of thermo liners. The fitter at my local ski shop pointed to a newly un-boxed convection oven and told me that was what they use for all their thermo liner boots.

Now that your cool analogy sparked my curiousity, (orchids are the most highly evolved plant), other than perhaps a superior fit for the "non phantom foot", what am i missing? Is it a different type of foam, or just the amount of which the foam is expandable to fill gaps and compression for hot spots, in other words the differing amount of fill of a 800 vs a 300 down fill jacket, (superior fit), or that + workmanship quality thing?

post #49 of 72

neonorchid,

 

That is actually a great question as it is kinda confusing when you see stock liners that say things like "Custom Fit" or some other moniker which leads one to believe they are customizable.  Most of this is marketing hype and there is perhaps at best a very thin piece (3mm) of EVA foam around the ankle area that may be heat moldable and in fact will mold itself with one day of skiing.  The Intuition liner uses a patented foam which the whole liner (less the outer skin) is made of and is heat activated at around 200 degrees.  When placed in the boot with a foot and buckled the foam will compress where there is pressure to give a custom shape to the foot and inner shell dimensions.  This closed cell foam is quite warm and comfortable and will outlast the stock liner by a long margin.

 

While putting most stock boots on a heat stack or oven will offer a nice warm cozy feel it does little to customize the fit.

post #50 of 72

Swallowed my pride today and instead of sticking my new Intuition F3 liners in the oven, took them to Bill Kaplan (Cantman)at Performance Pedorthics in suburban Philly. Rather than an oven, he used the Intuition heater, like a hot air boot dryer but hotter, and did the insole and toecap inside a thin sock routine, but the most impressive gadget was his shell spreader. Getting the hot liner into a stiff shell with a narrow throat, foot inside or not, was something I was afraid to try at home by myself - too much opportunity for wrinkles and creases. He bolted an adjustible binding to a 2 ft sq piece of plywood, and on either side mounted a sailboat cleat (the kind that sits in front of the winch) with ropes leading to big vise-grips with flat welder's jaws. Boot sits in binding, pliers grab sides of the boot throat, ropes get tightened so that the boot is spread much farther than even a helper could do and the liner slides right in.  $50 well spent. 

 

BTW, Bill stocks the $1500 Dodge carbon boot and has sold a couple. Really light.

post #51 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by evansilver View Post

Swallowed my pride today and instead of sticking my new Intuition F3 liners in the oven, took them to Bill Kaplan (Cantman)at Performance Pedorthics in suburban Philly.

 

Good choice. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evansilver View Post

. He bolted an adjustible binding to a 2 ft sq piece of plywood, and on either side mounted a sailboat cleat (the kind that sits in front of the winch) with ropes leading to big vise-grips with flat welder's jaws.

 

Awesome. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evansilver View Post

 

BTW, Bill stocks the $1500 Dodge carbon boot and has sold a couple. Really light.

 

You know you want to.     It's cheaper than most bikes...

 

post #52 of 72



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evansilver View Post

Swallowed my pride today and instead of sticking my new Intuition F3 liners in the oven, took them to Bill Kaplan (Cantman)at Performance Pedorthics in suburban Philly. Rather than an oven, he used the Intuition heater, like a hot air boot dryer but hotter, and did the insole and toecap inside a thin sock routine, but the most impressive gadget was his shell spreader. Getting the hot liner into a stiff shell with a narrow throat, foot inside or not, was something I was afraid to try at home by myself - too much opportunity for wrinkles and creases. He bolted an adjustible binding to a 2 ft sq piece of plywood, and on either side mounted a sailboat cleat (the kind that sits in front of the winch) with ropes leading to big vise-grips with flat welder's jaws. Boot sits in binding, pliers grab sides of the boot throat, ropes get tightened so that the boot is spread much farther than even a helper could do and the liner slides right in.  $50 well spent. 

 

BTW, Bill stocks the $1500 Dodge carbon boot and has sold a couple. Really light.

He definitely has some cool homemade tools.  Is he stocking anything else? When I saw him 2 years ago, he wasn't stocking any boots.

 

 

post #53 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by evansilver View Post

Swallowed my pride today and instead of sticking my new Intuition F3 liners in the oven, took them to Bill Kaplan (Cantman)at Performance Pedorthics in suburban Philly. Rather than an oven, he used the Intuition heater, like a hot air boot dryer but hotter, and did the insole and toecap inside a thin sock routine, but the most impressive gadget was his shell spreader. Getting the hot liner into a stiff shell with a narrow throat, foot inside or not, was something I was afraid to try at home by myself - too much opportunity for wrinkles and creases. He bolted an adjustible binding to a 2 ft sq piece of plywood, and on either side mounted a sailboat cleat (the kind that sits in front of the winch) with ropes leading to big vise-grips with flat welder's jaws. Boot sits in binding, pliers grab sides of the boot throat, ropes get tightened so that the boot is spread much farther than even a helper could do and the liner slides right in.  $50 well spent. 

 

BTW, Bill stocks the $1500 Dodge carbon boot and has sold a couple. Really light.


Did you try on the Dodge, if so how's the flex, did you find it progressive like a PU Ether boot?

Btw, do you know if he stocks Intuition liners? A friend of mine needs new liners for his Lang's, i had told him about Intuition but didn't know where around Philly to send him.

 

post #54 of 72

bump

post #55 of 72

Why?

post #56 of 72

Caution    Rant   ahead     I have an opinion, (everyone does, among other things). As a lurker here, and several other forums related to subjects that are of interest to me, I review as much information about a subject as I can before undertaking a project. I may be an obsessive compulsive person, but I want as much knowledge of a subject as I can get before I even consider hiring someone to do some work for me.

 

A simple example would be an issue I recently had with my mountain bike. after around 150 days of rough use the rear suspension suddenly became sloppy for lack of a better word. I took it into the most reputable shop I know of, with certified class act bike mechanics who I know by name for the repair. Their professional analysis? "The bike can't be fixed, it has worn the frame fittings beyond manufacturer tolerance, and short of welding new material and re machining...not recommended...nothing can be done. Terminate the patient. You may be starting to get my drift but the problem was literally DU bushings for the shock eyelets at $0.40 a piece and a first class stamp for shipping.

 

God dammit I don't just buy a brand new bike because some pro has an opinion! and I don't just hand a blank check to some guy cause it says "Bootfitter certified professional" on the door of the shop. Once I know the correct process for molding a liner, I go to the pro, and if that guy pulls out a blow torch, or fires up a hair dryer "because he knows better than the manufacturer" sorry, I take my liners and walk, because I know what he should be doing.

 

Now if the blessed internet did not have information from others who need help with their sloppy rear suspension, or getting a good fit for a ski boot, I would still learn the process by hook or crook any way I can before letting anyone run amok regardless of their status as a professional. Same with any trade or profession. I don't hire a doctor and just blindly follow his opinion. I get a second, especially if it matters. Yes, I will return to that bike shop, I know those guys, and they are the best mechanics I have ever seen in a bike shop, but you can bet I will be fully aware of the work that needs done before I walk in the door. 

 

Describing the way to accomplish something "at home" or without the proper tools is actually very helpful, each step is couched in the WHY WE DO IT THIS WAY IN THE SHOP WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS. this key point is very easy to gloss over, and some of those points are very valuable. In fact without this sort of detail, the answer to every boot fitting question could simply be "Go to a bootfitter" 

 

The point: Just answer the question with something of value or shut the hell up. save your indignation, some of us are trying to learn here. Trying to learn who knows their stuff before we hire...

 

To address the original poster: It is safe to say you are not the only person buying things on the internet. 

post #57 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by nematon785 View Post
 

Caution    Rant   ahead     I have an opinion, (everyone does, among other things). As a lurker here, and several other forums related to subjects that are of interest to me, I review as much information about a subject as I can before undertaking a project. I may be an obsessive compulsive person, but I want as much knowledge of a subject as I can get before I even consider hiring someone to do some work for me.

 

A simple example would be an issue I recently had with my mountain bike. after around 150 days of rough use the rear suspension suddenly became sloppy for lack of a better word. I took it into the most reputable shop I know of, with certified class act bike mechanics who I know by name for the repair. Their professional analysis? "The bike can't be fixed, it has worn the frame fittings beyond manufacturer tolerance, and short of welding new material and re machining...not recommended...nothing can be done. Terminate the patient. You may be starting to get my drift but the problem was literally DU bushings for the shock eyelets at $0.40 a piece and a first class stamp for shipping.

 

God dammit I don't just buy a brand new bike because some pro has an opinion! and I don't just hand a blank check to some guy cause it says "Bootfitter certified professional" on the door of the shop. Once I know the correct process for molding a liner, I go to the pro, and if that guy pulls out a blow torch, or fires up a hair dryer "because he knows better than the manufacturer" sorry, I take my liners and walk, because I know what he should be doing.

 

Now if the blessed internet did not have information from others who need help with their sloppy rear suspension, or getting a good fit for a ski boot, I would still learn the process by hook or crook any way I can before letting anyone run amok regardless of their status as a professional. Same with any trade or profession. I don't hire a doctor and just blindly follow his opinion. I get a second, especially if it matters. Yes, I will return to that bike shop, I know those guys, and they are the best mechanics I have ever seen in a bike shop, but you can bet I will be fully aware of the work that needs done before I walk in the door. 

 

Describing the way to accomplish something "at home" or without the proper tools is actually very helpful, each step is couched in the WHY WE DO IT THIS WAY IN THE SHOP WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS. this key point is very easy to gloss over, and some of those points are very valuable. In fact without this sort of detail, the answer to every boot fitting question could simply be "Go to a bootfitter" 

 

The point: Just answer the question with something of value or shut the hell up. save your indignation, some of us are trying to learn here. Trying to learn who knows their stuff before we hire...

 

To address the original poster: It is safe to say you are not the only person buying things on the internet. 

Good job bumping a 7 year old thread to rant that no one cares about.

post #58 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post
 

Good job bumping a 7 year old thread to rant that no one cares about.


Or that makes much sense in context with the original thread????

post #59 of 72
Note to Ranters:
Telling a side story before the rant waters down the rant. Esp when readers are all psyched to hear someone go off. Then instead they get an infomercial/history of the world/short story before the rant. Doesn't work. Audience is disappointed. Walk out of theater saying "huh?".

I mean imagine if all those Hitler rant memes (Bruno Ganz in Downfall) had like a short story on the life of iguanas before the rant. Huh?
post #60 of 72
Tell me more about iguanas.
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