Which DIY Liner Heat Molding Technique is Best?

Peter, I moved this into the gear forum so regular members can make suggestions.  Frankly posting this in Ask the Boot Guys may not be the best idea.  They make their living properly selling, fitting and aligning boots in a full custormer-service operation.  This just is isn't a fair post for Ask the Boot Guys, given:

A I bought em on the internetz

B I consulted with bootfitters but didn't use em

C I want to do this myself so I don't have to pay you.

Cirque - I think he had the correct idea. Although you're right, he's unlikely to get any kind of real response.

Right idea - don't be a cheapskate when it comes to boots. Seriously, you're better off skipping a day of skiing and spending that money on someone who can make your boots fit right.

That said, your safest bets are to try the things you mention, only in reverse order. Your chances of really messing things up are dramatically higher if you put them in the oven.

Good luck. Oh, and if you first went to a boot shop to get fitted/advice, then bought them cheap on the intertubes, you deserve what you get if they don't turn out right.

No matter what some people think, this is no rocket science, and sure I can be considered cheapskate, but I never had anything (from race ski boots to ice/roller hockey skates) heat molded by "professional". How professional you need to be, to put things in oven and let them in for few minutes?

Anyway... all you need is hot air oven (yes normal kitchen oven works just fine, just try not to use grill at same time ;), put them in for 10mins to 70-80c, and that's it. Ski boots could most likely take more, but for anything with carbon, 100c is a bit on high limit already, so I stick with 70-80c also with ski boots. And one more thing... put some wooden plate on bottom, so you don't put liners (or skates, rollers...) straight on metal. And watch out it's not touching metal on top/side.

Guys, there are some of us who don't live anywhere near a boot fitter, so the thread is relevant. 

All bootfitters are not created equal.  First bootfitter I went to screwed up the heat molding process to the point Intuition got involved to get them to stop doing that process.  Had to get them remolded.  A couple years later Intuition sent me a new liner (unrelated reason) with simple directions how to mold.  So easy even a Marine could do it.  Of course I didn't follow those directions exactly but after a bit of research I did it myself and they came out perfect.  Even went to a real bootfitter to get something else done to the boots and he said I did a fine job.

I used a convection toaster oven with the blower on and I did do some trails with an oven thermometer to make sure of the temp.  Also ended up I had another intuition liner that wouldn't be usable so I practiced on that.  You do need to make sure you don't bump the top burner when the liner expands .

I also think that folks tend to focus on the heating process when the post heating process is at least as important.  Prior to heating get everything set up: 2x4 block to stand on, everything set and ready to go.  Do a dry run from taking the liner out of the oven with oven mitts on all the way through foot in liner, liner in boot, to boot buckled.  It's not difficult but you don't have time to screw around with things.

Another tip is to make a boot holder with old bindings (search TGR) and have a way to keep the boot held open.  Don't skimp on the dry run and it isn't a bad idea to have an assistant.  Having a beer handy for the actual molding process is rather imortant too.

Go slow, practice,

Ken

Good luck dude. Abide.

I hope someone's karma runs over your dogma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prickly 

Guys, there are some of us who don't live anywhere near a boot fitter, so the thread is relevant. 

Not really: the OP didn't distinguish between liners /required/ to be heated and moulded prior to being worn and the liners that simply become loose faster if heated and moulded.  

Only if he had the former would the thread be /enabling/ to other skiers living far from bootfitters, and the steps under discussion would be completely different.

Just wear them - it will take that much longer for the to be too large,  trust me.

Did someone mention the dude abides?

Try this technique.

It worked for a burrito, which is what a liner is - a burrito in a taco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t4uN0WSJz4&feature=related

I ski. I've "fit" my own boots out of necessity and also had some work done by a fitter. I have both worked in a specialty, enthusiast orientated, retail shop (not ski) and been a manufacturers rep to such shops. I'll weigh in with my $0.02.

To the OP's question. Assuming you got the right size boot to start with (tightish) and as there is no info on the net, I'd suggest either the rice method (I've done that) as you can't screw it up or cook with a friend who has done it before (I've done that). I would have suggested spending $30 or so and have a fitter put them on a blower (I've done that) but it sounds like some fitters have their shorts in a bunch and would ruin them on purpose to make their point. Or they might tell you that you have the wrong boot whether you do or not. How would you know?

To you fitters. So, if you don't sell everyone a boot who comes through the door you feel mistreated? You think just because you gave advice and the client went elsewhere you were used. I'd say you weren't able to take that opportunity to explain why the customer would be better served to spend a few extra $$ for a better skiing experience and close the sale. You won't close everyone but with a helpful, customer oriented attitude the customer will come back later for wax, booster, grind or maybe his next pair of boots. I'm guessing that many of the fitters that have the right attitude are too busy making money and waiting on customers to be posting on the net. My words are meant to help you. Please let it snow here soon

Post 9 seems to be missing from when I looked before.  I was from an actual boot fitter and was helpful and appeared accurate.  Was it removed by the poster, or by an admin?  I find someone who goes to the local shop and tries stuff on, gets free advice, and then buys on-line and seeks advice on-line a bit suspect, but it is necessary to remove helpful content?

Wooley, that's not what they've said at all.

First, none of the bootfitters  here implied, nor said that they'd ruin anyone's boots, whether they were paid to mold them or not. And any bootfitter I know (including the ones who have posted in here), would most likely be happy to heat and help mold his liners for a $40 or some other nominal fee.

Second, who said or implied they were butthurt or used if a client left without purchasing. What they said, in response to the OP, was that it is pretty bogus to go to two bootfitters for advice and counsel, then buy on the internet off someone who sells cheaper, then come here asking/expecting bootfitters to provide any useful advice. I think most of the fitters here do provide great service and would love to earn a customer any way they can. But won't do it for free.

My bad. I would hope no one would do that but  I could see that having an "attitude" would maybe take ones heart out of the task. I must have misunderstood the "Us a a blow torch" and "you deserve what you get if they don't turn out right." as customer service oriented comments. I really don't know that liner but if the real answer is "Use a Blower" necessitating a trip to a ski shop and money earned, some one should have said it. IMO.

Perhaps a "personal consultation fee" refundable with purchase would be an answer. It's used in other industries successfully.

In my own business experience, I've provided a service to a prospective client many times with out getting the business at that time but made out overall.

To the OP. Here's what I found from people saying they were boot fitters.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080927154845AABbqyj

Gotta go and get ready to chair the Nordic Club meeting at my house. Think Snow!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by starthaus 

this is classic, you non rocket scientists are giving this guy, who deserves all the bad karma the boot fit karma gods can dish out, advice on how to custom mold a stock liner from lange. damn the torpedoes.

 

pennywise and pound foolish.

 

please take the advice of L&AirC, and primoz, and please for entertainment purposes take pictures of the mess and post them right back here on epic!!!

 

you guys understand how karma works, right?

 

if a boot fitter on this sight, gave you some free advice that saved you from ruining a $200.00 liner, would you feel good enough about that help to send them a tip or a kind thought or something along those lines? karma is a difficult concept for most cheapskates to grasp.

 

and by the way, i do realize that sarcasm does not transfer well in online help forums, but there are times that i just cannot help myself.

 

jim

Jim and everyone else that wants to flame me for this,

First, I do agree that going to someone's business, getting free information and then purchasing from the internet is a crappy way to conduct yourself .  I didn't pick up on that when I skimmed the posts this morning.  However, I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is here past that.  Can someone without boot fitting training screw up a pair a boots and make their skiing worse?  Yup.  Can a trained boot fitter do the same? Yup, although the chances are much less likely. 

I think the world of most boot fitters but hanging up a boot fitter shingle does not make you infallible.  I've been to 7 different shops with boot fitters.  Two shops were awesome.  One shop is great at making cork foot beds but suck at molding liners.  Another has one person that should never be allowed to make a foot bed even though displaying the Master Fit U certificate with their name on it.  Another wanted to grind my boots for 3 degrees each!  Stopped them before they started and the next boot fitter I went to (one of the awesome ones) said I didn't need anything of the sort.  The others were focused mainly on doing comfort improvements and one even recommends going to a sister shops to get more technical work done because it was out of their league.  The last two aren't bad shops' just high end boot fitting isn't in their business model.  That's close to a 50/50 chance of getting it right from 7 shops. 

He came right out and said he was a cheapskate.  At least he's being honest and if he screws it up it will be an expensive lesson.  He isn't asking about alignment and fit; just molding a liner.

My point, that I thought I was clear on, was to highlight the "gotchas" in the process and just because you go to a boot fitter, doesn't mean you are going to get what you need no more than when someone shows up at the mountain and asks for a lesson.  Same goes with all the other professions.  It took me over two years of trial and error to find boot fitters that can do what I would think is fairly standard work.  I do tip, I do recommend others to them and I do some of my own work.

I think the point of most online forums is to share information.  If someone is bothered by not being paid for their information, then they shouldn't share it.  It's the Internet.  If you ask it something, you'll get an answer.  It might not be right but you do get what you paid for.  Buyer (or cheapskate) beware.  Should TC get a tip for recommending a ski jacket to someone or discussing how it fits?  What about BB and all the work he's done on montages?  Not to mention he detailed explanations so even I can understand.  If that was the intent of this site, everyone should have to be at least a Supporter.

I suppose it is silly that he's trying to heat mold a stock liner.  I never gave it what liner he had a second thought as my post was about things that anyone, not just the OP, should consider in their process and not what the process is.  I didn't  think I discussed the process at all; sarcastically or not.

What I really don't get is if all your boot karma wishes come true, he'll have to buy new liners and will probably decide to go to a boot fitter.  You should be thanking primoz (who's given away information like a drunken whore on nickel night) and I for boosting the boot fitting business.

Other than upsetting you, was there something in my post that wasn't correct?

peace,

Ken

I really like attitude some of you (most of you) "I'm big and important bootfitter" guys have. If you are bootfitter you are something more then rest of the world. Fine, feel this way. On the other side, I was long enough in this business (WC racing), that I got at least some insight and experiences in all this, even though I was never fitting boots professionally.  That's why I say it's no rocket science, and most of time, especially for normal recreational skiers, you are selling one helluva fog (or whatever this should go in English).

But what really wonders me is, how you can easily ask others to help you (for free of course) with anything from waxing skis t, to configuring your computer, yet when someone asks about boots, you feel like only right way is to pay you for your help and knowledge. There's no other way unless you are total schmuck and want to do it on your own. But then never ever ask how to do it, or you will get flamed by some extremely important bootfitter with ego problem.

I think it cuts both ways on free advice. For example, I walked into a boot fitter in, I think, Keystone, a few years back, yakked a bit, got a lot of good advice, didn't buy anything. If I were back there again, needed boots or fitting, would I go to that guy? Sure, he was patient, seemed honest, helped me out.

Sometimes it's about future sales, but I guess you guys are businessmen and you know that already. Answering questions free on a ski forum may just be advertising for you. I know your names now, have seen you give a lot of sensible, patient advice. If I'm in your neck of the woods, I might stop in with my credit card. Could happen...

Thoughtful post, Ken.  I'll look you up at Crotchet this season (Friday evenings).

Read

Funny, I posted an almost identical question last week on Ask the Bootguys ("home-baking Intuitions") and didn't get bumped by a moderator and got a helpful reply. Anyhow, I chickened out and made an appointment with Bill Kaplan, AKA Cantman at Performance Pedorthics in the Philly suburbs for the molding. I'll follow up with the results. I got the idea when I got my shells out of the cellar and took a look at the beautiful wedge installation he did last year.

BTW, if you live in eastern PA and want a thorough and confidence inspiring analysis of your feet, fit, and stance, he's the man. cantman@speakeasy.net. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

No flames for this post.  However the OP was clearly a dick for consulting with two bootfitters that he considers "reputable" and then buying on the web.  Being a cheapskate is really a poor excuse.  And all for a  measly $20 . 

 

Alex 

Quote

Originally Posted by primoz 

I really like attitude some of you (most of you) "I'm big and important bootfitter" guys have. If you are bootfitter you are something more then rest of the world. Fine, feel this way. On the other side, I was long enough in this business (WC racing), that I got at least some insight and experiences in all this, even though I was never fitting boots professionally.  That's why I say it's no rocket science, and most of time, especially for normal recreational skiers, you are selling one helluva fog (or whatever this should go in English).

But what really wonders me is, how you can easily ask others to help you (for free of course) with anything from waxing skis t, to configuring your computer, yet when someone asks about boots, you feel like only right way is to pay you for your help and knowledge. There's no other way unless you are total schmuck and want to do it on your own. But then never ever ask how to do it, or you will get flamed by some extremely important bootfitter with ego problem.

^^^QFT

I do find it interesting that there is an apparent hierarchy in this and other industries who's feathers are not OK to ruffle and other's time it's OK to mine. Boy, if I had a nickel per unit of 'free' advise other's happily take and shop elsewhere, I could retire....poor me....

.....but I can only hope that my karma is awesome.

I find it interesting that you find this interesting:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpinord 

I do find it interesting that there is an apparent hierarchy in the industry and who's feathers are not OK to ruffle and other's time it's OK to mine. Boy, if I had a nickel per unit of 'free' advise other's happily take and shop elsewhere, I could retire....poor me....

 

.....but I can only hope that my karma is awesome.

you sell tuning supplies directly to the Epicski community, your posts of 'advice' are directed advertising that reaches a very focused and interested market. Your product is easily distributed to anyone who reads your advice no matter where they are located, everyone is your 'potential' customer... it doesn't work that way for advice from the Boot Forum. That should be easy to understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom 

I find it interesting that you find this interesting:

you sell tuning and boot fitting supplies directly to the Epicski community, your posts of 'advice' are directed advertising that reaches a very focused and interested market. Your product is easily distributed to anyone who reads your advice no matter where they are located, everyone is your 'potential' customer... it doesn't work that way for advice from the Boot Forum. That should be easy to understand.

Fixed it for you in your over simplification and not entirely accurate anyway, FTR.

So, your time and efforts answering questions is more important than mine or others answering questions and providing a vast amount of resources, here and elsewhere, when the potential customer then buys some where else to save a nickel? (Edited)

I wasn't just talking about the Boot Fitting forum, but the industry (and other industries as edited above) as a whole where I find it interesting there is clearly a hierarchy which people like you certainly don't go out of your way to play down, IMO.

That should be easy to understand since it is a fact of life.

Sorry I ruffled your feathers.
 

Answer: Boiling water. -( as opposed to the hot oil treatment you've received.)

Put shell only in a big pot with a towel over the top. Stick something on the bottom of the pot to keep plastic from contacting the bottom. or use rice cooker.

See here: This is for zipfits, but works with standard liners.

Photos: http://www.zipfit.com/howtozipfitsteps.html

Print:     http://www.zipfit.com/fittrick.html

video:   http://www.zipfit.com/howtozipfit.html

Safer than a standard oven. Use gloves to put the shell on.