New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Patrol MA

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

  I was struck by the image of a working patroller in a recent advertizmnet for the NSP education conference in April at Copper mountain. I intend to be there but, wanted to get some mileage out of the excellent technique demonstrated in the illustration. I took the picture into photoshop and removed some of the illustrations that had been placed for purpose of the ad and replaced them with some functional lines and commentary on his technique as I see it. Would you please take a moment to view and comment on the accuracy of my interpretation or add your own comments? I would particularly be interested in hearing from the Jackson instructor that used to patrol (sorry I can't remember your handle) .patroller ma.jpg

post #2 of 25

You ought to put your questions/comments into the text of your thread.  The words you've pasted onto the photo are completely illegible, at least to me.

post #3 of 25

I think that you are looking for my feedback.  I am a full time instructor at JHMR and have been a volunteer patroller at Snow King for over 10 years.  I am still patrolling, but have found it hard to stay involved at the level I used to because of the paid full time skiing job and schedule conflicts between the two.

 

To me, the photo looks good.  I don't see him doing anything "wrong".  I also think your comments are pretty accurate.  I'm not sure that the green line is placed correctly or maybe I don't understand what you are driving at with it.  To me the yellow line looks more like where his spine is.  Your observations about scissoring are good.  I think he is showing an appropriate amount of tip lead.  Tip lead used to be stressed and isn't anymore.  In fact for a while the pendulum swung the other way and no tip lead was considered good.  IMO tip lead is an outcome of the inside leg needing to be shorter than the outside leg as the body inclines into the turn.  The ankle flex is limited by the boots, so most of the shortening comes from the knee joint which puts the inside half in front of the outside half.  As you say too much opening of the hips will lose pressure on the outside ski.  I'm not sure that I agree with your analysis of why that happens.  This is a hotly debated topic and this is the time of year when I am least able to accurately debate it.  I would be more in tune with it after the Christmas rush is overredface.gif.  

 

There is a lot of confusion about what it means to ski two footed.  The first time I took a PSIA clinic I thought they were telling me no tip lead and 50/50 pressure on both feet.  Now I understand that this is not the outcome that I want and it is no longer what I am hearing from my trainers.  In fact they claim they never said it, but that's what I heardrolleyes.gif.  Now it seems the buzz word is appropriate pressure for the desired outcome.  Tough to quantify and kind of touchy feely, but pretty accurate once you feel it.  It is different in different situations and conditions.  IMO all skiing is two footed skiing even though in most cases we would prefer to be outside ski dominant.  Strong inside half means enough pressure on the inside ski to keep it tracking with the outside ski and to back up the dominant ski in case something "happens".  IMO it also means an anticipated body position which is favorable for release into the next turn as well as facilitating a progressive rather than a static movement pattern through the arc.

 

I like that he is looking down the fall line.  I was originally trained to do more GS type turns with the sled.  We were focusing on rapid transport and becoming comfortable with the steep pitch and hard snow conditions typical at The King.  I ran afoul of the division S&T guys at my senior test because my tail roper was completely freaked out with what I considered a "moderate" speed.  In spite of what I thought was a mutual understanding between us my tail roper was water-skiing behind me and hanging on for dear life.  I passed only because I was able to spend the rest of the day skiing very slowly using the falling leaf/pivot slip paradigm and stressing "patient comfort" and "team work".  The patroller in the picture seems to be using this approach as well.  It is a good one because it keeps the sleds speed manageable by nearly any skier and takes advantage of skeletal stacking, conserving muscular strength.  One thing I never do and don't advise is using a wedge with a sled for this reason.  We train strong patrollers here at The King.  Our terrain is challenging and we are expected to be competent on all of it.  We are the current national champions at the PEC for S&T and OEC and have been for two years running.  Long live "Team Coil"! 

 

I have always thought that running sleds is good for your skiing.  Having your hands on the handles keeps them in front and forces upper/lower body separation.  A patroller must realize that there is no situation in which it is OK to ever let go of the handles or lose control of the sled.  With the handles locked, a skier can even use them as a "crutch" to hold themselves up and recover.  This is good for developing mental toughness.  This is important, because there is no situation where it is acceptable to fall when running a loaded sled.

post #4 of 25

Correct me if I am wrong TPJ, this is a complete sideslip beingperformed and it sounds like it is being critiqued as a turn. The hips being open does keep more weight on the uphill ski but on steepicy terrain the uphill ski is a better braking edge. The other thing the open hips promotes is freer movement down the fall line as opposed to catching an edge and moving laterally. The uphill ski also makes a better braking edge when tailroping in the bumps as well. Too much weight on the downhill ski can cause washout and potential loss of balance or worse, falling. Lastly TPJ,one of my instrustors had this to say" There are two types of Patrollers, those that have been run over by a sled, and those who will be". Kind of an interesting concept.    Dave

post #5 of 25

I don't see the comments above as critique.  I like his position and thought that I said so before.  I don't think I agree with your statements about the uphill ski being a better braking edge.  Also there are differing degrees of open hips.  I like the position in the photo, hips that are too open, ie too much tip lead will have undesirable effects.  The correct amount of hip ie anticipation does help with freer movement down the fall line and through the turn arc as I thought I said in my previous post.  I also said that all skiing is two footed skiing.  I don't advocate all of the weight being carried on the outside ski, although I do believe that an outside ski dominant stance is preferred in most situations.  IMO too much weight on the inside ski leads to leaning into the hill and being out of position to move effectively.  Using the magic buzzword...  with "appropriate" weight distribution, if the outside ski washes out, the inside ski is ready to take the load.  It seems IME that the reason an outside ski washes out is because a skier is leaning into the hill too much.  As  far as your instructors quote goes....  Neither I nor anyone I know has ever been run over by a sled.  Things may be different in your patrol.

post #6 of 25

TPJ, I was referring to the captions on the photo, not really what you were saying, sorry for the confusion. I was more stating that in general the sounds of the statements were based on a turn as if he were freesking an unloaded sled, not sideslipping a loaded one. I also agree with you that the dominant ski should be the downhill ski but alot of people depend upon it as there only brake. The uphill ski can be very effective in this case when the skier is in a good "Athletic position" I am not advocating the majority of the weight be on it because as you mentioned that would keep the skier leaning into the hill, just pointing out to be aware of the uphill ski not just going along for the ride. Not necessarily getting run over, but you or anyone you know has ever fallen while operating a sled, whether inside or outside the handles? Or tailroping for that matter? You must have seen it a few times atleast while taking your Senior S&T.

post #7 of 25

No I really have never fallen, running a sled, either in or out of the handles, nor have I seen anyone else fall and lose control of a sled.  I have seen candidates drop the rope and even some of our weaker patrollers in the past have dropped the rope.  Most of those people are no longer on our patrol.  There were people in my senior test who didn't pass, but no one wrecked or dropped a sled.  The senior test in our division is often held at The King and some of the participants from smaller flatter hills have a hard time with the pitch.  I have heard about disappointed and even angry people who didn't pass, but I have never heard about any carnage.  I was at a "smaller flatter hill" helping with an avalanche class and there were a few people who were asking me about it, because they heard The King was steep and gnarly.  Because they were worried or intimidated or whatever, they trained hard to be ready and even if they didn't all pass, nobody embarrassed themselves.  I would expect that anyone going to a senior test would never drop a sled.  Even the guy I dragged was  power-wedging and terrified, but he didn't let go.   

 

We have been getting smaller numbers of younger, more skilled candidates than we have in the past.  A lot of them are ripping skiers and experienced mountaineers, climbers, boaters, par-sailors....  These people tend to have a higher conversion rate from OEC students through candidates to full alpine patrollers who are part of the team.  It's a really good thing and it makes me happy.  All of our candidates in the last few years had no trouble at all running sleds from day one.  I think a few years ago someone managed to drop a sled off the spider into the net at the top lift station.  Nothing happened, it could have been very ugly, and that person worked extra hard to live it down.  

 

I would agree that the comments seem geared towards an actual turn and the patroller in the picture appears to be in slip mode.  I do think that a lot of the body mechanics are the same regarding being "stacked" in a way the maximizes the skeletal and minimizes the muscular.  I believe that the skier in the photo could keep sliding, go into a pivot, or initiate a GS turn pretty smoothly from that position.  The way I see the picture, he has most of his weight on the outside ski, but has a fair amount on the inside ski as well.  IMO he is right about where he should be with an outside dominant stance and a strong inside half...  His inside ski is not, as you say, going along for the ride.

post #8 of 25

Agree with Teton on the tip lead reasoning.

 

pdxammo,  

Your comment on the left of skier regarding hip width is a bit confusing.  increasing the "scissoring" does not affect the hip width which is pretty much not ever going to change without much pain and fracturing.  I understand what you meant though, but it should be noted that stance width (the lateral difference between the feet) does affect the ability to pivot strongly.  A narrow stance is weak, while a wider stance incorporates a fulcrum mechanism referred to as braquage which creates the very powerful ability to twist the legs.  So it is not so much the fore and aft separation of the feet as it is the lateral spacing which creates the twisting advantage you refer to above.

post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 

Hmm going to have to proof read more...  Just to clarify, I agree that lateral spacing of the feet increases the ability to pivot but, only to a point, we have many on our patrol that grossly scissor the feet and when I replicate that it's harder for me to pivot, agreed? I didn't intend to comment on fore aft spacing but, since you brought it up what are your thoughts on that?

   Some of this would make more sense in context of our (my patrol's) particular strengths and weaknesses as some of it is addressed and reactionary to those weaknesses. I agree that "appropriate" balance between feet is essential and don't mean to suggest one-footedness.

Bud I just re-read what I wrote and don't see anything about hip width but, I do think we are on the same page?

Dave, I approach sled coaching as though it were actual skiing and try to draw parallels wherever I can, I teach the sideslip position in anticipation of the eventual transition. That is the part most seem to have trouble with and if we didnt have to switch I'd likely approach it differently. I'm always open to other ideas though. This year a focus for me is to show how tactics for pivot slips are equally effective for short turns and sled transitions and to strengthen our skiing and sled pulling at the same time. In the past I don't believe there was a strong connection between strong skiing skills and the natural ability to pilot a toboggan maybe that sounds weird but that was my perception.

post #10 of 25

Most people can't side-slip properly much less correctly do a more advanced variation like a falling leaf or pivot slip.  All of which are essential skills to safely running a loaded sled.  There has been lots of thread activity on Epic about the relationship between pivot slips and "real turns".  IMO pivot slips are a great drill that can be used to emphasize any of the skills concepts when used properly in a lesson plan based on accurate MA.  It seems like there are plenty of instructors out there who just teach pivot slips with out a specific outcome in mind which leads to the impression that pivot slips are a goal.  As a goal they are pretty boring and can lead to an unproductive lesson.  However, if a skier has the ability to use and blend the skill sets they will have no problem doing pivot slips and quickly realize that the mechanics of an accurate pivot slip are basically the same as the mechanics of a carved turn.  IMO pivot slips and pure carved turns are the opposite ends of the turning spectrum separated by a whole lot of DIRT.  IMO there is a very strong connection between skiing skills and running a sled.  Yes you can fake it in the horns a bit, but not enough to make up for a lack of basic skills.  As a trainer I wouldn't let a candidate near a sled unless I thought they were at least competent on skis to begin with.

post #11 of 25

TPJ, absolutely agree about about basic skills being the foundation of "properly running a sled" whether loaded or unloaded. On nice flat terrain, as you said, you can fake it a bit. Take the sled in the bumps and then those skills either shine through or come back to bite you you know where.

post #12 of 25

I'm not disagreeing, but a lot of sled handling in the bumps depends on how you approach those bumps.  It's true that it would take a lot of skill and confidence to run a sled down the zipper line.  If you use the falling leaf/pivot slip model and have a solid tail roper, it's not that hard from a "skiing" standpoint.  You do need to be solid on the slipping skills and tactical about line selection.   Usually it doesn't need to be fast or pretty and with a patient I think most patrollers would opt to get off the bump run and onto a groomer or traverse as quickly as possible.  I can't think of too many places that I've skied where the patroller commitment to an actual "bump" run is that long.  Many years ago I was evacuated from the JHMR.  The two patrollers used an AMA type sled and skied through about 3000' vertical of powder and crud by physically lifting the whole thing off the ground and skiing in synch during the cruddy bumpy parts.  They knew I was a core local and asked if I minded a faster ride.  I was and remain impressed with their skills and sometimes tell them 15 years later.    

 

We have lots of places on our hill, where a belay is the better solution.  In these areas we focus on keeping the sled moving and being fast with the set-up.  Some of us "could" ski a sled through these spots, but unless time was very critical wouldn't choose to do it.  We have a dedicated belay set-up that is several hundred feet long.I like to train this for groups of three, one in the horns guiding the sled, one running the belay, and one setting up the next anchor near where the rope will run out so it can be quickly clipped back in.  I also like to train people to use their self evac stuff for a fast running belay on short tight crappy pitches.  Fortunately we seldom have to use ropes, but we are ready.  The hardest real patient evac I can remember was during the Snowmobile hill climb and in involved a roped belay for 3 pitches with the 300' static line in waist deep sugar snow on a 40 degree pitch through very tight trees.  The patient was drunk and at least 300 lbs. and had broken both tib/fibs just above his cowboy boots by post-holing and then falling forward down the slope.  Of course he was wearing jeans and cotton socks and was getting cold and a bit shocky through the process.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveski7 View Post

TPJ, absolutely agree about about basic skills being the foundation of "properly running a sled" whether loaded or unloaded. On nice flat terrain, as you said, you can fake it a bit. Take the sled in the bumps and then those skills either shine through or come back to bite you you know where.



 

post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 

   This is inspiring me to improve, just sayin... I'm pushing the brass to send a delegation this April.

post #14 of 25

TPJ, well written stuff. As a past S&T trainer (20 years) I saw a lot of unusual stuff happen with a loaded sled. Every once in a while a candidate would catch a snag and get knocked over by the sled but overall I believe you are correct that in actual work mode I've never seen that occur. Which brings up a question about the wearing of the backpack and fanny pack. We discouraged that since it increased the chance of either getting snagged by the horns. Especially in steep bumps where the patroller and the sled travel over such uneven terrain.

 

post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

Hmm going to have to proof read more...  Just to clarify, I agree that lateral spacing of the feet increases the ability to pivot but, only to a point, we have many on our patrol that grossly scissor the feet and when I replicate that it's harder for me to pivot, agreed? I didn't intend to comment on fore aft spacing but, since you brought it up what are your thoughts on that?

   Some of this would make more sense in context of our (my patrol's) particular strengths and weaknesses as some of it is addressed and reactionary to those weaknesses. I agree that "appropriate" balance between feet is essential and don't mean to suggest one-footedness.

Bud I just re-read what I wrote and don't see anything about hip width but, I do think we are on the same page?

Dave, I approach sled coaching as though it were actual skiing and try to draw parallels wherever I can, I teach the sideslip position in anticipation of the eventual transition. That is the part most seem to have trouble with and if we didnt have to switch I'd likely approach it differently. I'm always open to other ideas though. This year a focus for me is to show how tactics for pivot slips are equally effective for short turns and sled transitions and to strengthen our skiing and sled pulling at the same time. In the past I don't believe there was a strong connection between strong skiing skills and the natural ability to pilot a toboggan maybe that sounds weird but that was my perception.


I think I misread your original post?  sorry...   I agree a wider stance is more stable and offers stronger turning powers which are isolated from the torso.  This wider stance could conceivably be taken to extreme I guess, but have never seen this occur.  Also agree too much or arbitrary "scissoring" or tip lead is a negative for the exact reasons you expressed.

 

I have done a few clinics for our area patrollers (albiet sans sleds) and encourage practicing pivot slips to improve the skills you discuss.  Skiing with a sled or a heavy back pack really makes pivoting the feet easier because of the large inertia created by the stability of the sled or the mass of the back pack.  I remember heli-skiing with guides who wore large packs and skied gnarly crud quite well but when I saw them skiing without their packs they struggled with upper body rotation.

 

Teach them pivot slips without packs or sleds to hone this skill.  The big challenge is the edge control and efficient edge release to allow the tips to seek the fall line, but with practice they will not only improve their personal skiing skills but there sled skills as well.

 

bud

 

post #16 of 25
This is a good thread, and an interesting one to me, because not only is the patroller not turning, as others have pointed out, he is doing what I have often described as the opposite of turning with his straight down the hill braking sideslip. In the current discussion about "two ways to slow down," my point is that turning is about not braking, about using tactics and line to control speed instead of scrubbing it off with the edges of the skis, about "skiing the slow line fast." But--for very good reasons--patrollers hauling a rig usually need to ski the "fast line slow," using their skis as brakes. So that's what we see in this image--a great contrast to gliding offensive turns.

Some great analysis in this discussion so far, but a couple points occur to me. First, to the "scissoring/tip lead" issue, I agree that what he shows looks appropriate. As some have pointed out, it is partially due to the uphill leg naturally more flexed at the hip, which of course moves that knee forward, along with everything below it. But it is also a byproduct of the femurs rotated in the hip sockets, which Pdxammo points out in the text on the image. (By the way, Mdf and anyone else having trouble reading that text, try clicking on the image to open it full-resolution in a separate window.) When the femurs rotate in the hip sockets, they rotate about two separate axes, making "tip lead" inevitable. Bud Heishman described this important movement, sometimes known as the "fulcrum mechanism" or "braquage"--the same movement you'd make if you stood on two separate pivoting barstools and turned them with your feet. Trying to eliminate or minimize tip lead would prevent this critical movement from happening.

Regarding "two-footed skiing" and weight on the uphill ski, here's something to consider: although I'll admit that I have not done a lot of rig hauling, I would expect that there would be a very good reason to do it with a lot of weight on the uphill ski. If you balance entirely on your downhill ski, and you hit a rock or catch an edge on something, it could end badly, with that rig right on top of you. But if you're on the uphill foot and catch an edge, you can immediately drop to your downhill foot and recover. It's a "technical tactic" trick that I learned from Dan Egan as a survival strategy for skiing very steep, narrow couloirs, especially if there may be rocky spikes jutting up through the snow.

Intent, as always, dictates technique. There is no point in critiquing this patroller in reference to classic, basic turns, since that is not at all his intent. I see excellent technique matched to the unique purpose and needs of hauling a rig with a margin of safety for both yourself and the person strapped in it.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #17 of 25

Actually Bob, the sled forces weight to the downhill leg (and ski) just like centripital forces would in a ski turn. Weight distribution sort of occurs naturally and just like in a ski turn if we put too much weight on the uphill ski, the downhill ski loses purchase. In addition the downhill leg is in a long and strong position so the skeleton can do most of the weight bearing. In contrast, the uphill leg is in a weaker (flexed) position and cannot bear as much weight and will fatigue much too soon if we try to keep a lot of weight on it. As the slope angle increases, or the run gets longer it becomes even more important to be efficient and go with what nature is giving you. So the uphill leg's role is generally as a back up, or if you need to side step over an obstacle it serves as a momentary primary brake as you pick up the downhill ski and step over an obstacle. Although I would question guiding a sled over an obstacle since it might get hung up on it and you would have to literally push the sled uphill to free it from that snag. Beyond that from what I see the chainbrake is in the up position so I doubt it's a steep slope. I also want to point out that the snow piling up in front of the uphill ski but not piling up in front of the downhill ski suggests a couple possibilities. One he just stepped over that pile with the downhill ski, or two he needs to step over it and get the uphill ski as clear as the downhill one. I also still wonder about the backpack and fanny pack while running a loaded sled.  Different areas and regions have different SoP's but having taught this stuff in multiple regions and for national events I have not seen that done since it's just one more thing for Murphy to muck up. As far as the fast line slow, that all depends on the terrain. It's sort of like a driving a semi and making sure the rear wheel clear the corner means the skier often takes a much rounder path than the back of the sled (where the fins are).  Especially in deep bumps on a steep run. Going too straight can cause the horns to dig into the next bump as the sled slide down the back of a mogul and again the only solution is to literally push, or pull the sled uphill to free the horns. In addition, at times the horns might end up over the head of the patroller who is already in the next trough but the sled is still on the top of a mogul.  So slow line slow might be a better tactic since it takes away of lot of these possible negative outcomes. Which brings us back to the idea that a loaded sled is no time to flirt with Murphy's law. Thinking of all the ways to eliminate those risks is paramount when it comes to good sled handling. :D

post #18 of 25

As Bob pointed out this is a perfect example of tactically skiing the fast line slow and using friction vs. gravity to control his descent.  A patroller piloting a sled does not want to even attempt to use gravity or ski the slow line with a sled as it would likely start rolling down the hill with ugly consequences for the patroller and his/her passenger.  He/she wants to keep the sled as stable as possible for the comfort and safety of the passenger which precludes the patroller to using friction almost exclusively to control the descent and this goal has nothing to do with turning.

 

The key is finding the balanced stance which uses the least amount of effort, which it appears this patroller is doing quite well.  The goal is to stand on the sweet spot of both skis with the weight distributed with a bias that offers the safest and strongest advantage over the mass pushing you down the hill.  This is dependent to an extent on the pitch, snow surface depth, consistency, and terrain (ie; smooth, bumped, crud or powder.  

 

The challenge I have noticed for the patroller is smoothly releasing their edges to transition from one set of edges to the other to give the muscles one one side a break.  This is where learning pivot slips with and without the sled is IMO a great task for patroller training.

 

post #19 of 25

Being able to falling leaf is also very useful as it allows you to easily dump the snow that can pile up below your skis when slipping in powder or crud.  In steep funky conditions I will usually use a falling leaf in a narrow corridor and pivot occasionally to either rest one side or to be in a tactically stronger position to work terrain changes.  Bud is 100% correct about generally avoiding the slow line.  A loaded sled will want to roll on a steep slope if it is side-hilled.  The patroller in the horns can compensate for this a bit by torquing the handles.  A good  tail-roper can also provide some resistance to this and tail wash out by skiing directly above the sled and providing a sort of running belay rather than being "in-line" and acting as a brake.  On terrain that is not too steep, I like to use turns rather than the slipping tactics.  I prefer either GS turns or short turns.  When turning with the sled, I try to keep the sled somewhat aligned with the fall line.  My "short" turns bring my skis across the fall line in a narrow corridor that allows me to apply braking force without turning the sled too much.  As the terrain flattens more, I usually switch to the GS turns to maintain speed with out allowing the sled to side hill too much.  The slipping is a great way to control speed, but requires more leg strength than turning does.  Sometimes speed may be of the essence and sometimes it may be necessary to provide the smoothest ride possible.  A good patroller should be able to blend the skills with a sled, just like in free skiing. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

As Bob pointed out this is a perfect example of tactically skiing the fast line slow and using friction vs. gravity to control his descent.  A patroller piloting a sled does not want to even attempt to use gravity or ski the slow line with a sled as it would likely start rolling down the hill with ugly consequences for the patroller and his/her passenger.  He/she wants to keep the sled as stable as possible for the comfort and safety of the passenger which precludes the patroller to using friction almost exclusively to control the descent and this goal has nothing to do with turning.

 

The key is finding the balanced stance which uses the least amount of effort, which it appears this patroller is doing quite well.  The goal is to stand on the sweet spot of both skis with the weight distributed with a bias that offers the safest and strongest advantage over the mass pushing you down the hill.  This is dependent to an extent on the pitch, snow surface depth, consistency, and terrain (ie; smooth, bumped, crud or powder.  

 

The challenge I have noticed for the patroller is smoothly releasing their edges to transition from one set of edges to the other to give the muscles one one side a break.  This is where learning pivot slips with and without the sled is IMO a great task for patroller training.

 



 

post #20 of 25

TPJ, I agree that cutting across the bottom of a mogul, or an ill timed traverse increases the possibility of the sled rolling but even more probable is the tail will slide downhill ahead of the horns. That doesn't mean using the high side of the troughs will do that though. It's the flattest part of the bumps and offers the sled a path where it doesn't cut across the backside of the bump. That rounder line is certainly done using a falling leaf but the horns take a much wider path since the pivot point of the sled is back around the fins. Obviously if a smooth vertical trough line is in front of you there would be no need to turn but when that peters out (almost alway does) a turn or two is needed. At least until you find another vertical trough line. I still remember my Level 3 test over at A Basin. Poli top to bottom one man. Alley one to be exact. Get there, treat the victim, load and go. The four to six foot bumps made it impossible to find many vertical troughs, at least not for more than a few bumps before a traverse trough. Going straight over the traverse trough / bumps wasn't an option either since the horns would get driven straight into the next bump as it slid down the back side. That's when knowing how to turn the sled without pitching it came in handy. Quite frankly outside of that test I wouldn't be on something that steep san a tail rope back up. So somewhere in my heart I knew in an extreme situation I could get a loaded sled down anything, at my home area we never allowed anyone to operate a sled one man on anything that steep. It put the patient at too much risk.

post #21 of 25

Interesting that "motion paralisys" can be subjected upon a single image.

 

Where I patrol,  "skiing a loaded sled" is not allowed. No GS turns!

 

It's slipping, It's Wedging,  or it's running>  I admit,  I "run" a lot ;-) But I always check with the patient first.  "Do you want a fun ride?"

 

The up hill leg is used to keep the downhill leg from chattering to failure.  It's that simple!  Hell with lead,  The feet shuffle back and forth constyantly, and I like to change sides every few seconds.  keeps me fresh!

 

haul  270# + for a  mile,  and you will understand!

 

The guy on the OP is doing everything right!  He has the jacket on! ;-)

 

Cheers

 

Cal

post #22 of 25
Thread Starter 

Bob, you said there is no point in critiquing him in reference to turns but, since even this sliding is a dynamic movement as per the terrain and necessity to manage slough and, the need to be able to transition to the opposite side without a big adjustment, doesn't it require all the basic stance and movements needed for turning? We have pivot slips as an exam and training task to show mastery of some of the skills needed for short turns and are not those the same skills needed to transition in the handles?

   The challenge for my training in my patrol has been getting folks to transition properly, many try to perform the move from the back seat. I also must admit that the caliber of skier we train is not ideal, we have a very large patrol with a high turnover, not my choice, I don't test applicants and am not responsible for staffing levels either. So not only do I have to get these guys pulling but, there is some work to do in the skiing department as well. With these two things in mind do you feel my approach is valid? if so how could I improve it, if not what would you suggest?

   Some history, the training when I came on was pretty much here is your chainbrake , shown an example of running the sled  and ok now you do it. Kinda like being taken out in the lake and thrown in and told to swim... I've been pushing for a movement based training for a few years and there was a lot of resistance, this is the oldest patrol in the country and some of the people have been around since very near the beginning, not that the older guys were the ones that were resistant but there is an entrenched mentality. However, it has caught on and the results are hard to argue with, giving people a body part to move, and where and when is obviously going to be successful. I am seeking out advice and looking for examples of good training to help further develop this program, I am hoping to go to the PEC this year and learn more from the elite patrols in the country and use that knowledge.

   This year I am going to continue to encourage the other coaches to use body parts and when and  where when giving feedback, and use a couple of techniques that we use in ski school here that I'm sure many have heard of, the gradual release of responsibility and, the what,what,why,how.

post #23 of 25
Thread Starter 

Agreed although I'm not sure I shuffle. We sometimes have walking wounded climbers walk into the top station and downloading isnt allowed so you have to take them the entire way to the lodge which is well over a mile. Once had a very large man with a very large pack...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post

Interesting that "motion paralisys" can be subjected upon a single image.

 

Where I patrol,  "skiing a loaded sled" is not allowed. No GS turns!

 

It's slipping, It's Wedging,  or it's running>  I admit,  I "run" a lot ;-) But I always check with the patient first.  "Do you want a fun ride?"

 

The up hill leg is used to keep the downhill leg from chattering to failure.  It's that simple!  Hell with lead,  The feet shuffle back and forth constyantly, and I like to change sides every few seconds.  keeps me fresh!

 

haul  270# + for a  mile,  and you will understand!

 

The guy on the OP is doing everything right!  He has the jacket on! ;-)

 

Cheers

 

Cal



 

post #24 of 25

Are you guys sending a team this year?  There has been some talk about who will be on our team this year.  Lots of pressure with an undefeated streak.  They had the contest 2 times and Team Coil won both times!cool.gif  It looks like only one person from last years team can do it this time.  Fortunatly we have a deep pool to pick from.  There was talk of an all tele or all female team.  We have had a woman and a tele skier on each of the previous two winning teams.  We lost the tele guy who was also the winner of the divisions outstanding S&T award this year, because he has to take a proffesional exam for his real jobmad.gif.  Galen was also the one team member who was on both previous teams.  I don't have time to train with the team so I won't do it, but I might try and see if I can get a spot at the PEC as either an Avy or MTR guy.  I helped with MTR 2 years ago and had a great time.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

Bob, you said there is no point in critiquing him in reference to turns but, since even this sliding is a dynamic movement as per the terrain and necessity to manage slough and, the need to be able to transition to the opposite side without a big adjustment, doesn't it require all the basic stance and movements needed for turning? We have pivot slips as an exam and training task to show mastery of some of the skills needed for short turns and are not those the same skills needed to transition in the handles?

   The challenge for my training in my patrol has been getting folks to transition properly, many try to perform the move from the back seat. I also must admit that the caliber of skier we train is not ideal, we have a very large patrol with a high turnover, not my choice, I don't test applicants and am not responsible for staffing levels either. So not only do I have to get these guys pulling but, there is some work to do in the skiing department as well. With these two things in mind do you feel my approach is valid? if so how could I improve it, if not what would you suggest?

   Some history, the training when I came on was pretty much here is your chainbrake , shown an example of running the sled  and ok now you do it. Kinda like being taken out in the lake and thrown in and told to swim... I've been pushing for a movement based training for a few years and there was a lot of resistance, this is the oldest patrol in the country and some of the people have been around since very near the beginning, not that the older guys were the ones that were resistant but there is an entrenched mentality. However, it has caught on and the results are hard to argue with, giving people a body part to move, and where and when is obviously going to be successful. I am seeking out advice and looking for examples of good training to help further develop this program, I am hoping to go to the PEC this year and learn more from the elite patrols in the country and use that knowledge.

   This year I am going to continue to encourage the other coaches to use body parts and when and  where when giving feedback, and use a couple of techniques that we use in ski school here that I'm sure many have heard of, the gradual release of responsibility and, the what,what,why,how.



 

post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 

I don't know yet I've been making suggestions and trying to get some funding, we send people out for avy training so I don't see why we shouldnt get help sending a contingent to PEC. I would expect to field a team if we did, it would be fun. I think if we could assemble a "dream" team off our patrol we could be competitive, we have some very talented people, especially on the EMS aspect.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching