Looking for best very warm mid-layer - Page 3

I really like the oakley sethmo fleece, it is made of polartec stretch and it is warm! I used it under patagonia powder bowl most of the winter over a baselayer and didn't get cold! It's a great fleece piece! Oakley also has down jacket that can be found for around 100 bucks, also on the sethmo series. Can't talk about the down jacket but the fleece is a top notch polartec piece

For midlayers, realistically you've got four broad options:

 

1) Fleece (spun polyester fiber).  Cheap, widely available.  Breathes pretty well, pretty warm, wicks okay.  Doesn't block wind well unless they add a wind blocking layer, which also cuts breathability.

 

2) Wool (generally the superfine merino stuff these days, a la Icebreaker or Smartwool).  Wicks well, breathes well.  Not quite as warm (can actually be a plus for skiing if you tend to overheat).  Not very windproof.  Often pricey.

 

3) Down.  Biggest advantage is density -- at the same warmth as fleece or wool it's lighter/thinner, or for the same weight/thickness you get more warmth.  Can be compressed very small, which is good for packing.  Generally very warm, doesn't wick well, breathes okay.  Often pricey.

 

4) 'Soft Shell' / 'Power Stretch' material, possibly with extra insulation.  Generally decent breathability and warmth, moderate wind resistance, not great wicking (but this can all vary depending on how the material is built).  Pricey from the fancy brands, but cheaper versions available.

 

The Arcteryx Atom LT that everyone is raving about is sort of a hybrid.  Their 'coreloft' material is a synthetic that lands somewhere between fleece and down in terms of warmth and breathability.  Then it has a windblocking layer over it with powerstretch panels for extra ventilation.

 

Generally I've been using fleece, but towards the end of last season I picked up an Eddie Bauer 'First Ascent Microtherm Down Jacket' on sale.  With the uncooperative weather I didn't get to use it for skiing, but will be trying it out next season.  I also have a soft shell jacket that I have occasionally pressed into service as a ski midlayer.  Arcteryx jackets don't generally fit me well, since I much prefer tall sizes, and they only make tall pants and not jackets...

My vote would be wool also,cant beat it.

 

They also make a down "shirt" -  half zip and thinner. I'm waiting for their next sale to get one.

You can buy a good 200 weight fleece for $40. The Atom LT costs $180, but looks better at Starbucks.

Hi-loft fleece is an excellent mid-layer, something like a Mountain Hardware Monkey Man.  Lightweight, highly compressible, breathable, quick to dry, not terribly expensive if you keep an eye on Steep and Cheap or elsewhere for big sales on now and over the summer. 

 

Some people like down insulation, but if you tend to run hot like I do, it'll end up soaked with sweat/vapor and then it's useless.  Hi-loft fleece is far better in that sense.  Cheaper too. 

 

I fail to see why people use mid layers that have wind resistance and other fancy things; that's what your outer layer/shell is for.  Mid layer is for insulating, and you can't go wrong with an affordable hi-loft (non-piling) fleece.

 

On east coast when it starts to get colder (-15C or below), I don't bother with the hi-loft actually, and just go with a "regular" thin fleece mid layer.  Seems counter-intuitive, but not really because on the colder days I just go with an insulated jacket.  Thin base, thin mid keeps things lightweight and warm.  Works like a charm, been snug as a bug on the chair  below -25C (-15F) no problem.

 

Whoops -- that's actually what I got.  Full-zip, but the 'shirt' design.  Just wrote the wrong name before. 

 

No probs, they have both. I'd just bought a Patagonia down sweater the week before so had stoked my gear hunger temporarily .

 

Do you wear it with a merino or synthetic base layer?

 

Another good option for warm midlayers are the icebreaker 320 weight hooded sweaters. I have a large, fits like a tight skin so I want (need...) an XL for this winter... Heavier than the down sweater for sure but way more rugged and the hood works great - no need for balaclava and can get away with a fleece bandanna on the coldest days.

here's some info after I did a bunch of poking around on the pati down/primoloft line up in terms of "warmth" (its all relative)

 

http://www.patagonia.com/us/shop/down-jackets-mens?k=4Y-1D

 

Ultralight down shirt

Nano puff

UL down jacket

Down Sweater

 

 

great options the R series shirts/pullovers. I wear a ultrathin base- merino wool and a R1 plus the shirt with a shell and its plenty warm down to 15 or so. swap out the shirt for a UL jacket and your good to zero.  I have a Rab Microlight which is about the same as the UL jacket but more form fitting. BTW- you can get for $100.00

I agree that the mid layer is easiest layer to purchase. Inside layer has got to fit right and wick, outside has got to block the wind and have the technical features I want, mid layer is just to cover my long underwear and provide insulation.I love the look of wool and down but I always go for the price of cheap fleece in basic Black or White. I really can't tell the difference in a $20-$40 mid weight fleece from Lands End or Old Navy and similar weight fleece from Patagonia or other high end brands.

mid layers should be good at wicking and transporting moisture as well as a moderate amount of insulating properties. You can't go wrong with any number of products from Smartwool, Pati, ibis, and so many others. the R1 is an easy choice

 

edit: I saw I misread Steves post about mid-layers.

Edited by Finndog - 6/21/12 at 10:58am

My favorite setup now is the Patagonia Nano Puff under the shell for the real cold days with a base layer of Patagonia Wool Merino 1 or Merino 2 under the Nano. The Merino 2 is my favorite base layer ever. I have 3 wool base layers that can be worn for days in the backcountry without much smell. If I did that with capeline, I'd be seeked out by animals to roll in. 

 

I have a similar jacket to the one you have by Orage. I ski in the Tahoe area mainly so its never that cold. Out hiking I usually bring a shell and wear the Nano as my outter layer unless it's realy cold. Then I throw that shell over the Nano.

Well said!

Wonderfully said. 

Um... Convection is a legitimate method of heat transfer. I think having a windproof mid layer does help increase warmth (all things being equal) -- sorta like a double paned windows. 

 

Why is wicking needed in a mid layer? Assuming you are wearing a base, mid, and shell, what is the mid layer is going to wick moisture into? The shell is impermeable to liquid. 

 

 

 

 

Shells don't let liquid water through, but they let water vapour out (if they are any good). 

If you have a windproof shell, there won't be much air movement through the mid-layer.

 

 

CORRECT!  Tromano, think this way, your body is where the sweat starts right?  OK then, it needs to get to the outside so each layer has to have the ability to absorb and then transport the moisture to the outside. As Ghost correctly states, this is one of the jobs of a shell that is commonly misunderstood. A shell has to be able to also transport the vapor out. Some feel there are limits to this. Fabrics like Event breath so well that some feel they let too much heat out along with that h20 vapor. 

I've got the R3 too.  The fit is athletic, which I like and is somewhat rare for Patagonia.  However, I find that the stretchy panels on the arms and sides let the cold seep in, even when under my shell. 

I like mid-layers made from Polartec Wind Pro.  Good compromise between warmth, wind resistance (for gusts that get under/through the shell) and breathability.  LL Bean sells in a 200 weight ("Cresta" fleece jacket).  Not sure which other manufacturers use Wind Pro.  I know EMS and REI used to have wind pro jackets, not sure if they still do and I'm too lazy to search.  Wind pro in a 300 weight would be very warm. 

 

I don't like Polartec Windbloc fleece (has a membrane), or the versions of Polartec products that include the "hardface technology" because both products compromise breathability.  I do not expect my mid-layer fleece to substitute for a soft shell jacket.

 

STE

 

- comfort; otherwise there is a large clammy heat sink close to the skin.  If this is not done through wicking, then body heat has to provide the heat of vaporization sufficient for /all/ that liquid to be transported by convection. 

 

- contact with the hypothetically bone-dry exterior air that is "breathing" in through the shell.  

 

The first job of the mid-layer is therefore to separate near-skin air (warmed by body heat and probably saturated with vapor) from exterior air (not warmed by body heat, presumably not saturated with vapor, unless its raining out); it's second job is the wicking bit, so that transport away from the skin isn't powered by body heat (evaporative process on the inside of the garment) but rather by evaporative process on the exterior of the garment (saturation of in-breathed air). 

 

You will perceive therefore, that if the exterior shell is breathable enough for wicking-based-on-saturation-differential  to occur properly, it behooves the midlayer  to be as windproof as possible.

 

Non-wicking convection-transport midgarments are great when it's 50F and raining out.  For -20F and windy, I'll take wicking, thanks. 

Just because your mid layer is wind proof doesn't mean it won't breathe adequately though surely? If it's made of a wicking internal with a light wind barrier external face fabric that can pass vapour it will still work fine and also stop any wind chill that gets under the shell too. Kind of a 2 in 1 barrier situation then. Lots of the low profile synthetic insulated jackets ala Atom LT, Nano Puff etc would do this as well as some of the thin soft shells too. They feel lighter and thinner to wear than an equivilant warmth fleece option IMO. Shell with pit zips is another option too to vent if required.

But in really cold weather as per OP's question I agree with some posters above, an insulated hard shell (Fission SV for me) with icebreaker base layering (1 or 2) underneath. Light, non bulky, breathable and still warm down to -20C so far.

For me I take a Fission SV, Alpha SV, Atom LT (yes, Arc junkie) and a couple of icebreaker zip neck tops (200 and 260 weight) and that covers every temperature range I need to worry about. It's kind of like having a quiver of clothes for the different conditions and it means 3 layers max will cover anything.

 

In the model I posted, too much convective transport means the air on the exterior of the midlayer becomes just as saturated with moisture as that on the interior surface of the garment, and wicking stops, so it's not altogether easy to find a true 2-in-1 balance.

Fair call, yes. As you also alluded to, the personal comfort angle would be outside temperature and activity dependant as well.

I guess it's the inside outside temperature variation that we are trying to keep apart ultimately while letting some transfer happen if the body gets too far above normal comfortable operating temperature.

 

I thought wicking was the role of the base layer and the role of the mid-layer was to absorb all that wicked up liquid and provide insulation. If it is as you say that wicking is the primary role of the midlayer and given that the shell is not permeable to liquid, where does the liquid wick into?

 

Also, I would submit that while skiing, if you are saturating your layers you are doing it wrong and dressed much too warmly. 

 

I am not sure wither 50F and raining or -20F and windy are relevant design considerations for 3-layer ski wear. In the first I would probably dump the mid layer, in the latter I would probably add at least one additional insulation layer. Those conditions are at the very boundary of what is reasonable and I think we should rather discuss based on conditions that are more the norm. 

 

Yes, wicking transport is going to be the method of transport for the base layer, unless you're using something like brynje as a base layer in which both/either might happen. 

 

 

 

I'd suggest primaloft sweater or merino wool. Primaloft works better than down when wet and compresses less. Above 10F I wear merino Ibex Zephyr zip T an Ibex wool sweater, long johns and sweaters. I find it about 15 degrees warmer than Icebreaker 320! Seems that model sweater is no longer made, denser weave than Icebreaker. But I'll experiment with the new primaloft if it gets cold enough. My butt always froze on a wet ski lift till I got merino long johns, no more frozen butt!

+1 on wool

 

Down to around 25 degrees:

 

Base: Icebreaker 200 weight

Mid: Icebreaker 260 weight

Shell

 

Down to around 20 degrees:

 

Add Marmot Zeus 800 fill vest (I like my arms free to move)

 

Down to in the low teens/single digits:

 

I add a fleece layer either under of over the vest depending on which one I grab.

If it's REALLLY cold, I'd go with down.  When it's that cold, I'm not worried about outside precipitation wetting my clothes anyway.  I only get to this a time or two a year though.

 

Generally, I wear wool.  And not even techie, Icebreaker wool, just regular merino or cashmere blends I buy at Goodwill and the Salvation Army.  While less machine washable than the tech wools, they have almost all the other good properties.  They insulate extremely well, including when wet.  They are basically odorless forever.  I have a few tech wool garments and performance wise, I don't really see a difference.

 

Plus, when I'm strolling around the lodge later, I look J.Crew steezy in my sweater.

 

So that's my advice to everyone.  Go buy $5 second hand sweaters that someone got rid of because of some pilling or a little hole or just because they got tired of them.  They'll work as well as any midlayer you can buy and cost nearly nothing.

 

I have a j crew wool sweater that got a hole or two and excessive pilling, ended up using it as midlayer last year, added fleece zipup under roomy shell when real cold/windy.