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How to fall intentionally if needed?

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 

Not sure this is the right way to solve the problem, but keep reading. 

 

The hill I go to most often is a small one that's only 20 minutes drive away, but the down side of being so close to the city is there are tons of beginners, especially little kids. The place is small enough that there are really only two greens and one blue that's half decent, and for some reason people (and instructors) just love to bring little kids who can barely stand on skis directly to the only blue run instead of green.

 

this wouldn't be much of a problem if they stay on the side, but people love to send their kids traversing almost direct horizontally across the slope. At times going down the slope I feel I'm playing real life frogger trying to go between all the kids going from one side to the other.

 

Now the problem is sometimes I'm in the middle of a carve and suddenly see a little kid going directly into my path. I'm in the stage where I have little control over my direction, and that kid obviously isn't going to change his. If impact is imminent I would rather fall than crash into the kid, 200 lbs vs. 50 lbs generally doesn't favor him. I am however at the stage where I'm good enough to have instinct that keep me on my feet, but not good enough to consciously change that quick enough if I want to. So the question is, would falling intentionally be the best solution here? If so, how, if not, what is the best solution?

post #2 of 43

Yes, falling to avoid a collision would be the preferred course of action. To reduce the risk of tearing an ACL in one of your knees, try to do the following (listed in priority order):

 

    1.) Arms forward.
    2.) Feet together
    3.) Hands over skis.

For the reasons why, see http://www.vermontskisafety.com/kneefriendly.php

 

Not only is this better for your knees but it reduces the likelihood of a sprained or broken wrist, thumb, or finger which can occur if a skier reflexively puts a hand down in a fall.

 

Also, if you determine that conditions are such that you will likely be falling in the course of your ski day, you may want to ski without putting your hands through the wrist straps on your ski poles. The reason is that if you fall while using your pole straps and a ski pole ends up under your body as you roll on the snow, your hand becomes trapped by the pole strap (that is connected to the ski pole that is temporarily trapped under your rolling body) and prevents you from getting your hand and arm out of the way of your rolling body (which would normally be easy/natural to do if your hand was free) and can result in sprains and breaks to the fingers, wrist, or arm.

post #3 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

Not sure this is the right way to solve the problem, but keep reading. 

 

... Now the problem is sometimes I'm in the middle of a carve and suddenly see a little kid going directly into my path. I'm in the stage where I have little control over my direction, and that kid obviously isn't going to change his. If impact is imminent I would rather fall than crash into the kid, 200 lbs vs. 50 lbs generally doesn't favor him. I am however at the stage where I'm good enough to have instinct that keep me on my feet, but not good enough to consciously change that quick enough if I want to. So the question is, would falling intentionally be the best solution here? If so, how, if not, what is the best solution?


This is the problem. Why can't you change directions? If you can't, you're skiing too fast for the conditions, slope traffic, and your ability. Most everyone has to slow down when things get crowded. If you try the controlled fall route, remember that once you're down, you'll have even less control while you're sliding than simply skiing slower and/or skiing better. Seriously, invest in some lessons and learn how to master the means of your 'desired outcome'. Love saying that. It just sounds so PSIA'y. smile.gif  For falling during any sport when we all eventually do, Judo or Aikido lessons. Nothing better for learning to fall correctly.

 

post #4 of 43
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post




This is the problem. Why can't you change directions? If you can't, you're skiing too fast for the conditions or slope traffic. Most everyone has to slow down when things get crowded. If you try the controlled fall route, remember that once you're down, you'll have even less control while you're sliding than simply skiing slower and/or skiing better. Seriously, invest in some lessons and learn how to master the means of your 'desired outcome'. Love saying that. It just sounds so PSIA'y. smile.gif  For falling during any sport when we all eventually do, Judo or Aikido lessons. Nothing better for learning to fall correctly.

 



 

I mean I'm in the part of carving turn when I cannot change direction much, not I have no control over my direction while skiing.

post #5 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

Not sure this is the right way to solve the problem, but keep reading. 

 

The hill I go to most often is a small one that's only 20 minutes drive away, but the down side of being so close to the city is there are tons of beginners, especially little kids. The place is small enough that there are really only two greens and one blue that's half decent, and for some reason people (and instructors) just love to bring little kids who can barely stand on skis directly to the only blue run instead of green.

 

this wouldn't be much of a problem if they stay on the side, but people love to send their kids traversing almost direct horizontally across the slope. At times going down the slope I feel I'm playing real life frogger trying to go between all the kids going from one side to the other.

 

Now the problem is sometimes I'm in the middle of a carve and suddenly see a little kid going directly into my path. I'm in the stage where I have little control over my direction, and that kid obviously isn't going to change his. If impact is imminent I would rather fall than crash into the kid, 200 lbs vs. 50 lbs generally doesn't favor him. I am however at the stage where I'm good enough to have instinct that keep me on my feet, but not good enough to consciously change that quick enough if I want to. So the question is, would falling intentionally be the best solution here? If so, how, if not, what is the best solution?


jzmti,

Since this happens regularly, then you need to realize that you are skiing too fast for the situation.  That crowded slope with five year olds traversing across it is not the place for anyone to be carving turns, even if you know how to stop quickly without falling.  Going mach schnell on a crowded slope is SO not cool.  Should you ram into some little kid and do damage, it's going to be your fault.   

 

So here's what you need to do, and this will get you off that crowded slope and take your skiing to the next level.  Pony up and take a lesson.  Get your instructor to teach you two things:  how to make steered turns that don't involve carving, and how to do a hockeystop.  Steered turns are slower; they give you the option to get down that kid-filled slope and back to the lift without making yourself an accident waiting to happen.  When you have steering in your skillset, you'll be able to tackle steeper runs under control and that will get you off the easier terrain filled with kids.  And while you're at it, find out how to do an emergency stop, called a hockeystop.  

 

Then get out there where no one can see you and practice, practice.  You'll be on your way to becoming an expert, and no longer just a bomber blasting dangerously around moving "gates."  If you want to capitalize on those carving skills, join a night league race team and carve away.  Now's the time to call them and they will find you a team.  It's a blast.     

 

 

post #6 of 43
Thread Starter 

Seems you guys are assuming I'm just some idiot who can go fast with no control, I can assure you that's not the case. I have good control over my speed and line. The slope is not crowded, if it is I will adjust accordingly. The problem is people sending their kids across the hill oblivious of what is in the way. Here I am in the apex of a turn on a path that was absolutely clear when I started, then suddenly I see a kid with zero control over direction barreling directly into my path. This all happens within a fraction of a second so not much time to react at all.

post #7 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

Seems you guys are assuming I'm just some idiot who can go fast with no control, I can assure you that's not the case. I have good control over my speed and line. The slope is not crowded, if it is I will adjust accordingly. The problem is people sending their kids across the hill oblivious of what is in the way. Here I am in the apex of a turn on a path that was absolutely clear when I started, then suddenly I see a kid with zero control over direction barreling directly into my path. This all happens within a fraction of a second so not much time to react at all.


If you anticipate someone might "send" their kid into your path (I assure you no one "sends" their children into your path), then don't ski that way there.  Unless you are willing to do damage and blame the parent.  Will that feel good to you?  What if the kid is bleeding; are you just going to ski away, or are you going to scream at the panicked parent?  How are you going to handle that when it happens?  

 

Falling is not cool.  Plus it's not going to be a good way to do an emergency stop.  You need to do steered turns when there's any small kid anywhere below you on that slope.  The kid does not pass you; he comes at you from the side at a much slower speed.  You are the older wiser one; look around and go slow when there's any kid anywhere around.  If you have blind spots out there that may be hiding kids, slow down in case they are there.  This is responsible skiing.  It's not fun, just the right thing to do.

 

No strong, skilled skier would get himself into the situation you are describing.  I understand your pride in being able to carve fast; that's great and deserves good feelings.  But, just saying........  the solution is slower turns which you can stop when the unexpected kid crosses in front of you, and hockeystops as an emergency option to stop that steered turn.  There's no shame in being able to do these things; they will serve you well on all kinds of terrain.

 

post #8 of 43
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post




If you anticipate someone might "send" their kid into your path (I assure you no one "sends" their children into your path), then don't ski that way there.  Unless you are willing to do damage and blame the parent.  Will that feel good to you?  What if the kid is bleeding; are you just going to ski away, or are you going to scream at the panicked parent?  How are you going to handle that when it happens?  

 

No strong, skilled skier would get himself into the situation you are describing.  I understand your pride in being able to carve fast; that's great and deserves good feelings.  But, just saying........  the solution is slower turns which you can stop when the unexpected kid crosses in front of you, and hockeystops as an emergency option to stop that steered turn.  There's no shame in being able to do these things; they will serve you well on all kinds of terrain.

 



 

Urg, seriously? Now you are playing the guilt card? I can do slower turns and I can hockey stop, but I can't anticipate nor control what some idiot will or will not do.

 

So tell me, if it was you who are in the apex of a carving turn on a previously clear slope, and someone who was standing at the side suddenly decide it's a good time to ski straight into your projected path, what would you do?

 

Oh and despite you assuming it happens "regularly" even though I never said it, it has never actually happened, I was able to avoid them so far, but simply preparing for something that may happen in the future.

post #9 of 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgeCaught View Post

Yes, falling to avoid a collision would be the preferred course of action. To reduce the risk of tearing an ACL in one of your knees, try to do the following (listed in priority order):

 

    1.) Arms forward.
    2.) Feet together
    3.) Hands over skis.


 

That sounds like a really good way to break your wrists, which, having done so a few years ago, I wouldn't recommend to anyone. 

 

I'm not sure how people can recommend a good way to fall, as when one falls, it tends to be due to a lack of control in the first place. There are some bad ways to fall, mostly involving twisting and being in the backseat, or landing on one's head. Often you can avoid those falls by improving your stance while skiing. 

 

 

 

Quote:
So tell me, if it was you who are in the apex of a carving turn on a previously clear slope, and someone who was standing at the side suddenly decide it's a good time to ski straight into your projected path, what would you do?

 

A few factors: 

1 - Watch for all potential hazards while skiing. If a kid's standing around in the middle of the run, that's a hotspot. Yes, you need to ski with a lot of focus - no making grocery lists in your head or spacing out.

2 - Figure out how far away you need to be to avoid the obstacle. There's no "but"s on this point. If you run into someone and they die, it is your fault. 

3 - Ski at the appropriate speed for the conditions, crowds and your skill level. If there's any possibility you won't be able to stop or avoid someone, you're skiing too fast. 

4 - Always keep emergency exits for those poor folks behind you (eg don't ski right along the very side of the trail)

 

So in your situation, it sounds like the apex of your turn comes far too close to the kid. I know it's hypothetical, but you gotta be able to avoid!

post #10 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

Seems you guys are assuming I'm just some idiot who can go fast with no control, I can assure you that's not the case. I have good control over my speed and line. The slope is not crowded, if it is I will adjust accordingly. The problem is people sending their kids across the hill oblivious of what is in the way. Here I am in the apex of a turn on a path that was absolutely clear when I started, then suddenly I see a kid with zero control over direction barreling directly into my path. This all happens within a fraction of a second so not much time to react at all.



Not to be rude, here.  But yes that is exactley what I think.  What do you mean you are at a "part of the turn" where you have "zero control over direciton"?  That means no control.  From what you describe you skiing is "park and ride" and bad "park and ride" at that.  You should be able to control your line at any point in the turn.  Kid coming that you just didnt see?  Turn or stop or just drift (more on this below).  Falling wont reduce your momentum, you will just hit the kid while flailing, likely sharp ski edges first.  Really really bad idea. 

 

If runs are crowded and lots of kids around.  Then you cant ski fast.  Those days happen, where you are regulated to skiing relativley slow, short radius turns.  With good skiing they can be as fun as anything else.

 

Turn - increase edge angle to steer "above" the kid

Drift - decrease edge angle to "break from the turn" and your body will travel in the direction of momentum (no this is not the direction you were turning - look it up if you dont understand)

Stop - really a combo of the above two.

 

The first two can be done in instantly with instant results to avoid any collision.

 

post #11 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


 



 

Urg, seriously? Now you are playing the guilt card? I can do slower turns and I can hockey stop, but I can't anticipate nor control what some idiot will or will not do.

 

So tell me, if it was you who are in the apex of a carving turn on a previously clear slope, and someone who was standing at the side suddenly decide it's a good time to ski straight into your projected path, what would you do?

 

Oh and despite you assuming it happens "regularly" even though I never said it, it has never actually happened, I was able to avoid them so far, but simply preparing for something that may happen in the future.

 


  • Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
  • People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
  • You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
  • Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
  • Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
  • Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
  • Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.

 

 

Honestly, I don't know that you're going to get any sympathy here in your situation. You MUST anticipate what might happen, including kids crossing the hill (you didn't see them with their parents on the side of the hill and anticipate that they might push their kids across the hill?) on boards sitting on the back side of a roller, etc... You're never going to be right on this one no matter how hard you argue. In Colorado, you'll get jail time when you hit someone. This stuff is something every skier here sees every single day on any groomed trail at any ski resort.  It couldn't be any more simple. We've all had to adjust our arc at the apex. If you can't do it, no matter what you say, you're not in complete control and/or you're skiing too fast. Falling as an avoidance measure just isn't a good strategy for many of the reasons already posted above. Do you really think you could control yourself better sliding on the ground than using your skills ON skis? Hopefully  that's not the case.

 

post #12 of 43



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


 



 

Urg, seriously? Now you are playing the guilt card? I can do slower turns and I can hockey stop, but I can't anticipate nor control what some idiot will or will not do.

 

So tell me, if it was you who are in the apex of a carving turn on a previously clear slope, and someone who was standing at the side suddenly decide it's a good time to ski straight into your projected path, what would you do?

 

Oh and despite you assuming it happens "regularly" even though I never said it, it has never actually happened, I was able to avoid them so far, but simply preparing for something that may happen in the future.



Yes Seriously.

 

 

This "apex" idea you got that once there you are committed is BS.  Increase or decrease edge angle to alter course.  Assuming you are in a pure carve.  If not, then in addition to altering edge angle you also have the option of altering steering angle, increase or decrease as well.

 

post #13 of 43



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 


  • Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
  • People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
  • You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
  • Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
  • Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
  • Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
  • Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.

 

 

Honestly, I don't know that you're going to get any sympathy here in your situation. You MUST anticipate what might happen, including kids crossing the hill (you didn't see them with their parents on the side of the hill and anticipate that they might push their kids across the hill?) on boards sitting on the back side of a roller, etc... You're never going to be right on this one no matter how hard you argue. In Colorado, you'll get jail time when you hit someone. This stuff is something every skier here sees every single day on any groomed trail at any ski resort.  It couldn't be any more simple. We've all had to adjust our arc at the apex. If you can't do it, no matter what you say, you're not in complete control and/or you're skiing too fast. Falling as an avoidance measure just isn't a good strategy for many of the reasons already posted above. Do you really think you could control yourself better sliding on the ground than using your skills ON skis? Hopefully  that's not the case.

 



Ok ok, lets not add ignorance to ignorance.

 

From what the OP suggested, he likely has the right of way.  BUT, he is breaking rule #1, stay in control.   Clearly their are phases of the turn where he simply isnt.

 

But the rule I highlighted in red is one of the most important and often misuderstood.  It is the main exception to the rule bolded by markojp.

 

The rules of the Skiers Responsiblity Code are like the rules of the road.  Cars in front of you have right of way, BUT if you are parked on the side of the road you cant just pull out into traffic and expect everyone else  to avoid you.  Nor can you just come from a side street on to a main road and expect everyone to avoid you.  LEARN THE CODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

post #14 of 43


Quote:

Originally Posted by jzmtl 

 

Urg, seriously? Now you are playing the guilt card? I can do slower turns and I can hockey stop, but I can't anticipate nor control what some idiot will or will not do.

 

So tell me, if it was you who are in the apex of a carving turn on a previously clear slope, and someone who was standing at the side suddenly decide it's a good time to ski straight into your projected path, what would you do?

 

Oh and despite you assuming it happens "regularly" even though I never said it, it has never actually happened, I was able to avoid them so far, but simply preparing for something that may happen in the future.



Ummm...I think what everyone is trying to tell you is: you need to anticpate it b/c you're already aware of the possibility.  Therefore, on that type of slope, don't ski that way.  I'm sorry you can't understand that, on a slope where you know "some idiot will" send their kid across, you should ski slower.  Not to mention that's it's not as though the parents are on a double black diamond forcing their kids to go across a 40deg slope in a wedge...these are mellow blues and greens.

 

For example:  I take my 6y/o skiing.  While he's in lessons, I go over to the blacks and carve at high speed to my hearts content.  After I pick him up, we go to the blues and greens; I slow down considerably and use slower turns and hockey stops...b/c I don't know who else is on the hill and I don't want to hurt anyone...and I don't want them hurting my child either.

 

You don't need to learn to crash...you need to learn to think.  It's not just about you.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but better harsh on the internets than some little kid injured,

 

-Smarty

 

post #15 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post



 



Ok ok, lets not add ignorance to ignorance.

 

From what the OP suggested, he likely has the right of way.  BUT, he is breaking rule #1, stay in control.   Clearly their are phases of the turn where he simply isnt.

 

But the rule I highlighted in red is one of the most important and often misuderstood.  It is the main exception to the rule bolded by markojp.

 

The rules of the Skiers Responsiblity Code are like the rules of the road.  Cars in front of you have right of way, BUT if you are parked on the side of the road you cant just pull out into traffic and expect everyone else  to avoid you.  Nor can you just come from a side street on to a main road and expect everyone to avoid you.  LEARN THE CODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 


   Ignorant. OK nonono2.gif Yeah, I knew someone would highlight rule 4. How many beginners, adult or children, are good judges of speed and distance? Few. The onus is still on the uphill skier. I'm guessing that most of us here don't question for a moment our responsibility to avoid skiers when we're the overtaking skier no matter how badly choices are made below us. 'Look up and yield' is very different than both rules 1 and 2. 

 

post #16 of 43



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


   Ignorant. OK nonono2.gif Yeah, I knew someone would highlight rule 4. How many beginners, adult or children, are good judges of speed and distance? Few. The onus is still on the uphill skier. I'm guessing that most of us here don't question for a moment our responsibility to avoid skiers when we're the overtaking skier no matter how badly choices are made below us. 'Look up and yield' is very different than both rules 1 and 2. 

 



Clearly this thread is about educating.  There are obvioulsy many here who simply dont know.  It is important we emphasise what peoples responsibiliites are.  You are correct most dont know Rule #4, thus:

 

  1. It is important we emphasise it here
  2. The rest of us follow rule #1 to avoid collisions when others make mistakes.

 

Rule #2 is often misunderstood, and people (including you?) believe those below always, no matter what have right of way.  This is false.  Rules #3 and #4 are the qualifiers.  This is not to say that breaking Rule 3 or 4 means you are fair game to be hit....but it does mean if you are in violation of rule 3 or 4 blame will be apportioned.  Depending on how much of Rule 1 the other skier was violating will determine their blame.  But if you break 3 or4, be prepared to take at least 50% and up to 100% of the responsiblity for causing the collision.

 

 

The SRC is basically identical to the rules of driving.  Not sure how somthing will go down in court, just think of it in terms of cars and drivers.  Driving at 30km hour down a street in full control, and someone who was parked on the side of the road just pulls out and you hit them....who is at fault?  Or driving at 80km hour down the highway and someone parks their car in the middle of the highway just over the crest of a hill....who is at fault?  Neither case is clear cut, and blame will be aportioned, but the "hit" car will not get away scott free unless the other driver was excessivley speeding, or drunk etc (ie breaking Rule #1).  If the other driver was proven to be driving prudently for the conditions, the guy who pulled out or parked in a dumb spot will take most of the responsibility.

 

 

post #17 of 43

Trust me, I understand them very well. The OP was talking about kids and presumably beginners. I don't know of anyone who's an experienced skier that is willing to trust beginners at the side of the hill to yield to them, just as one doesn't typically fly over rollovers when we know that there might be boarders there even if we are 'right'. I don't believe for a moment that any jury would have any sympathy for an adult colliding with a child because the adult couldn't adjust his turn, even if the kid's parent pushed the child out onto the hill. Honestly, in decades of skiing, I don't think I've ever been 'surprised' by a skier not properly yielding when entering a slope. 


Edited by markojp - 10/26/11 at 5:47pm
post #18 of 43
Thread Starter 

I tried to be subtle and polite, but guess that isn't working. Do you people even friggin read before reply? I posted a hypothetical scenario, and asked if it happens what is the best way to respond, then suddenly all these people started accusing me of going to fast, not in control, yada yada. Do you really feel you are so superior that you need to take every chance to give lessons every chance you get? Can YOU anticipate what's going to happen 100% of the time without fail?

 

The keyword here is IF, I know it's only two letters but it's still pretty damn important here, and that mean what I asked has never happened, and may or may not happen in the future!

 

post #19 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

I tried to be subtle and polite, but guess that isn't working. Do you people even friggin read before reply? I posted a hypothetical scenario, and asked if it happens what is the best way to respond, then suddenly all these people started accusing me of going to fast, not in control, yada yada. Do you really feel you are so superior that you need to take every chance to give lessons every chance you get? Can YOU anticipate what's going to happen 100% of the time without fail?

 

The keyword here is IF, I know it's only two letters but it's still pretty damn important here, and that mean what I asked has never happened, and may or may not happen in the future!

 



Yes I can.  Anticaption is about time, I ensure I ski via speed or line to give me adequate time to take appropriate action. 

 

 

 

post #20 of 43

Hey Jzmtl,

Don't mind them ^^; they just don't understand.

It seems obvious to me that you don't realize how much control is actually possible while skiing.  At your current level and equipment, you have figured out that you have a better chance of avoiding a collision by falling when someone unexpectedly gets in your path.  The truth is that your best chance of avoiding a collision is by effectively using the most grip you can manage, to apply the most force on your body and change your direction or speed.  Believe it not the way to get that grip is not to fall and slide along on your backside, but to use your skis's edges.

 

Two issues are technique and equipment (alluded to earlier).  These are issues because there is a vast industry making tons of money every year by people paying for never-ending lessons and upgrading equipment that depends on you remaining ignorant of proper technique and the inferiority of beginners gear.  At the risk of great peril to myself from those who are in on the conspiracy, I will let the cat out of the bag.

 

1. To turn, you have to get your skis up on their edges and dig those edges into the snow, not just slide along with the skis flat.  Play with it; where those edges are pointing, how far up on edge the skis are tipped and how you pressure them will have way more effect on your direction and speed than anything you can do while tumbling along in a heap.

 

2.  Get some skis that have some torsional rigidity and maybe even a little longitudinal stiffness, so that instead of just bending and letting you continue along whatever path your headed on they will grip the snow and have a noticeable effect.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

BTW if you haven't done it before, you may find it hard to keep your balance while riding your edges, especially when making drastic changes in your direction or speed of travel.  It's best to practice up suddenly turning or altering a turn mid-apex a bit before you have to use the technique.

 

post #21 of 43

I will add, that if you do loose your balance find that a fall is going to happen, protect your head first and foremost. 2nd consideration is that if you keep your skis off the snow (assuming they are still attached to your feet) they will be less likely to damage your knees.  3rd, don't try to save yourself with your hands, just fall on your side and don't wreck your shoulder.

post #22 of 43



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Trust me, I understand them very well. The OP was talking about kids and presumably beginners. I don't know of anyone who's an experienced skier that is willing to trust beginners at the side of the hill to yield to them, just as one doesn't typically fly over rollovers when we know that there might be boarders there even if we are 'right'. I don't believe for a moment that any jury would have any sympathy for an adult colliding with a child because the adult couldn't adjust his turn, even if the kid's parent pushed the child out onto the hill. Honestly, in decades of skiing, I don't think I've ever been 'surprised' by a skier not properly yielding when entering a slope. 


I have never been "surprised" by it either, because not much surprises me anymore, but I have seen it lots.  Further I have seen it cause serious collisions.  In smaller eastern resorts this is less of an issue, in major western resorts with intersecting roads and runs all over, plus more blind rollers etc it is a major issue and a major cause of accidents.

 

It is important we who "understand them very well", use that knowledge to educate those who dont.  Suggesting that Rule #1 and #2 is a catch all as you have here is false, and sets up many for accidents and injury.

 

Educate and teach the proper and full code.  Just like driving, we dont just follow some rules, somtimes, when it suits us.  The "hey I am good driver so I dont need to follow the rules" attitude is crap. 

post #23 of 43
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Hey Jzmtl,

Don't mind them ^^; they just don't understand.

It seems obvious to me that you don't realize how much control is actually possible while skiing.  At your current level and equipment, you have figured out that you have a better chance of avoiding a collision by falling when someone unexpectedly gets in your path.  The truth is that your best chance of avoiding a collision is by effectively using the most grip you can manage, to apply the most force on your body and change your direction or speed.  Believe it not the way to get that grip is not to fall and slide along on your backside, but to use your skis's edges.

 

Two issues are technique and equipment (alluded to earlier).  These are issues because there is a vast industry making tons of money every year by people paying for never-ending lessons and upgrading equipment that depends on you remaining ignorant of proper technique and the inferiority of beginners gear.  At the risk of great peril to myself from those who are in on the conspiracy, I will let the cat out of the bag.

 

1. To turn, you have to get your skis up on their edges and dig those edges into the snow, not just slide along with the skis flat.  Play with it; where those edges are pointing, how far up on edge the skis are tipped and how you pressure them will have way more effect on your direction and speed than anything you can do while tumbling along in a heap.

 

2.  Get some skis that have some torsional rigidity and maybe even a little longitudinal stiffness, so that instead of just bending and letting you continue along whatever path your headed on they will grip the snow and have a noticeable effect.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

BTW if you haven't done it before, you may find it hard to keep your balance while riding your edges, especially when making drastic changes in your direction or speed of travel.  It's best to practice up suddenly turning or altering a turn mid-apex a bit before you have to use the technique.

 



Thanks for the rational response. I can actually play with edge pretty well despite what people in this thread assume, at least on groomers. Falling would definitely be the last resort but I want to know if I had to do it what's the best way. Who knew such a simple question would be this troublesome.

 

I was prepared to potentially hurt myself instead of some kids and all I get this crap, guess I should just kept my mouth shut next time.

 

 

post #24 of 43

Its not that you shouldn't be prepared to hurt yourself to save a kid, its that you shouldn't be in that postion in the first place. From the way you typed the OP it sounded like you had been in this position before.

 

On the falling thing remember, just because you fall doesn't mean you stop. You are still going to progress forward and could possibly hit the kid and will have less control over how you hit the kid if than if you hit them standing. I'm not saying just plow into the kid but falling may be no better.

post #25 of 43

What you say is akin to the biker who says "I had to lay it down as the truck was right across my path." .  While it may have been true that a bike would  stop quicker sliding than with the brakes on in 1910, the truth is that a bike will stop a lot quicker with the rubber side down with modern brakes.  You too can stop and turn better with those edges engaged than in a fall.  If you have the technique, you must be missing the gear (and congratulations; it's not easy learning good technique with inferior gear).

post #26 of 43

I used to think skiing fast was the biggest sign of skiing skill, and so I skied as fast as I could on any slope, no matter how crowded.  I wove in and out of other skiers, never hitting anyone.  I was sure of my skill and timing, and very proud of it.  I was very much like you, jzmtl, in this regard.  I was doing what my ski buddies were doing, joking about the moving "gates" which were the slow novice and intermediate skiers in front of us.  I was stupid, and lucky.  I am so glad I did no damage to any of those innocent beginners.  

 

Since becoming a ski instructor I've learned to see the situation from the cautious novice's perspective.  Fast skiers zooming down a slope full of uncertain folks are scary, very scary.  And rude.  And dangerous.  Novices can't turn and look to the side or uphill while skiing - they are still shaky on their skis and will fall over if they try.   When someone unexpectedly speeds by them they get startled and for good reason.  They don't deserve to fear for their lives while learning to ski.  

 

Little children have no perspective to speak of.  They are focused on the most direct thing in their small field of vision; there's no way a five year old is going to notice a speeding skier on an intersecting course with their line ahead of time - they aren't mature enough to know where their own line is much less someone else's.  They can't choose where to make their own turns wisely, nor anticipate where other people are going to turn.  All these people have to learn somewhere; they are skiing's future.  It's in everyone's interest to keep these people happy.  Without them the ski areas would go bankrupt.  

 

Jzmtl, be a fast skier on slopes where you aren't a danger to others.  If you know how to ski slowly, then do it where there are crowds and have your fun during another run somewhere else.  This is actually a decision having to do with self-gratification.  Delay it.

 

post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

Educate and teach the proper and full code.  Just like driving, we dont just follow some rules, somtimes, when it suits us.  The "hey I am good driver so I dont need to follow the rules" attitude is crap. 


I don't think anyone said anything about not following rules.  Liquidfeet, absolutely excellent post with a terrific summary! smile.gif

post #28 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

 

Jzmtl, be a fast skier on slopes where you aren't a danger to others.  If you know how to ski slowly, then do it where there are crowds and have your fun during another run somewhere else.  This is actually a decision having to do with self-gratification.  Delay it.

 



 

I understand what you are saying, but what pisses me the most is by posting a question I'm automatically assumed to be some fast maniac who can't ski, which in reality I'm anything but (the maniac part at least), and instead of answer the question people who knows nothing about me or the condition I ski in feel the need to give me a preaching lesson.

post #29 of 43

Didn't mean to preach.  But can't help it.  Teacher mentality.  

post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post



 

...what pisses me the most is by posting a question I'm automatically assumed to be some fast maniac who can't ski, which in reality I'm anything but (the maniac part at least), and instead of answer the question people who knows nothing about me or the condition I ski in feel the need to give me a preaching lesson.

You asked a question about how to fall to miss hitting children.  You said that there was a part of your turn that you couldn't get out of.

 

This leads one to think that the writer is skiing dangerously and out of control.   Falling is the last thing you want to happen in a near collision situation and not being able to get out of a turn leads one to believe that the writer has technical problems.  

 

The responses by many good skiers respond to this scenario.  You got what you asked for.  If you didn't want to hear this stuff, and it is off target, then you should be more careful about how you describe the situation and what you ask for.  We can't read your mind, all we have is your words.
 

 

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