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Only Two ways to slow down! - Page 6

post #151 of 169
My guess is technique. From what you describe I envision you become static and hold a position at the the end of the turn. Time your movements so you continue driving and moving thru the whole turn ...including moving out of the turn and across the skis into the new turn while your skis are still finishing the old turn.
post #152 of 169

uboom,

 

The chatter you are feeling is also one of the possible symptoms of improper lateral alignment. Is the chatter more pronounced when turning in one direction or the other?

 

fom

post #153 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post

uboom,

 

The chatter you are feeling is also one of the possible symptoms of improper lateral alignment. Is the chatter more pronounced when turning in one direction or the other?

 

fom


Thanks for your reply. I get the same chatter on both left and right turns. Boots have been proffessionaly set up.

happens only on very steep, winchcat groomed, and very hard snow, and at the bottom of the turn when the edges are at maximum load.

Ski edges are tuned 3 and 1 filed and polished. I am wondering if a less aggressive tune would allow the ski to slip slightly,rather than the muscle jarring skipping.   

  
 

 

post #154 of 169

work on your turn entries.  If your skis pivot all the way to the fall line, then it causes you to have to do all of your speed control during the second half of the turn where you're getting the chattering.  Your skis go from skidding sideways drastically (pivot) to you trying to edge them more and resulting in the chatter.

 

Try to get your skis to slide tip to tail with only a little bit of feathered skidding, starting from the very top of the turn.  Clean turn entries, absolutely minimize pivot entries.  Try to keep the skis from needed to have a large steering angle.  

 

Keep your weight forward, especially during the top half of the turn, which is when you need to engage and bend the ski to make it do anything effective in the top half of the turn, but also make sure you dont fall too far aft in the end of the turn where the chatter is happening.

 

Don't detune your skis.

 

 

post #155 of 169

I tend to agree with borntoski683 about the problem being with your turn entry.  I have never seen your skiing, but when I was having that problem in both skiing and later snowboarding, it came down to too much pressure being applied too fast in the last 1/3 of the turn and overloading the skis causing my inability to hold an edge without chattering.  Once I learned to get earlier pressure in the turn, I didn't need so much so fast at the end of the turn and the problem went away.  On the snowboard my problem was an incomplete turn finish on the toe side leading to acceleration into the heel side turn and chattering at the end of that turn as I tried to dump speed too fast.  I thought my heel side turn sucked, the problem went away once I learned to hold the toe side for 1/2 beat longer.

post #156 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I tend to agree with borntoski683 about the problem being with your turn entry.  I have never seen your skiing, but when I was having that problem in both skiing and later snowboarding, it came down to too much pressure being applied too fast in the last 1/3 of the turn and overloading the skis causing my inability to hold an edge without chattering.  Once I learned to get earlier pressure in the turn, I didn't need so much so fast at the end of the turn and the problem went away.  On the snowboard my problem was an incomplete turn finish on the toe side leading to acceleration into the heel side turn and chattering at the end of that turn as I tried to dump speed too fast.  I thought my heel side turn sucked, the problem went away once I learned to hold the toe side for 1/2 beat longer.


This is starting to sound logical. However the initation and falline parts of the turn are the acceleration phases.If I am reading you correctly you are saying that pressure in these phases will tighten turn radius thus reducing time in the acceleration phase, therefore controlling speed?  
 

 

post #157 of 169

That's not what I'm saying.  Tightening the turn would help control speed, but I'm saying that it should work for all turn radius and most shapes.  I used to have the chatter problem, especially on ice or hard pack.  I kept trying to put more pressure on the ski to get it to "bite" better.  What I have found is that less pressure applied through the entire arc is far more effective than more force as the ski starts to break loose and skip.  A light touch and effective angulation is way better than "stomping" the edge.  Try getting enough pressure on the ski early enough in the arc to throw snow up the hill.  It's really hard.  Most skiers throw the most snow right at the end of the turn.  Look at the SVMM QCT.  There is very little pressure at the top of the turn and a lot at the end.  This loads the ski quickly for them and fuels the rebound into the next turn that they like.  If they were going faster with longer turns and softer skis they might start to chatter.  The "QCT" works great for the SV guys for what they do with it but there is not a lot of pressure at the top and there is a lot of pressure all at once at the bottom.

 

I like to compare it to using a power tool like a skill saw.  A skill saw can cut a radius of a certain size even though its really for straight cuts.  If the user tries to push the saw through too tight of a bend the blade will bind in the kerf and the saw will kick back.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uboom View Post


This is starting to sound logical. However the initation and falline parts of the turn are the acceleration phases.If I am reading you correctly you are saying that pressure in these phases will tighten turn radius thus reducing time in the acceleration phase, therefore controlling speed?  
 

 



 

post #158 of 169
uboom, when you are considering the turn entry teton & borntoski discuss, also tie in the exit from your old turn as well. If you hang on to that old turn then dump yourself across your skis and down the fall line you will pivot your skis as borntoski describes to establish a steering angle across your direction of travel and chop off the top of the turn. If you exit the old turn with your momentum taking you across the hill instead, then you can get that steering angle and have the skis start working for you while they are still above you. As it gets steeper you have to go faster and faster to get this effect and it eventually diminishes to where it is difficult to get much before the fall line.

Hope that makes sense...
post #159 of 169

Adding to what cgeib is describing....  Ideally at the end of a turn as you move through your transition into the next turn you will be traveling across the hill on your new edges with your CM on the downhill side of your skis before a direction change begins to happen.  If you are on your new edges this early, the pressure build will be fairly automatic and progressive as the arc develops.

post #160 of 169
Thread Starter 

Great descriptions from Chris and Teton and B2ski!

 

This is the essence of a "Go" turn entry in that our momentum is moving more forward in the direction the skis are pointed rather than down the fall line.  This in turn permits a better turn entry before the fall line. It is kinda like the chicken or egg dilemma, which comes first?  Exiting one turn well makes Iit possible to finish the next well and off we go.  I think of Bob & Chris's medicine ball graphic here that gets the idea across of redirecting our mass and tossing it into the new turn then catching and redirecting/deflecting it in a new direction.  Perhaps Chris can link it here?  The more efficiently and softly we can catch our inertia and redirect it without scraping off speed, the rounder the arc and the more our masses are redirected.  This is skiing the slow line fast!  

post #161 of 169
Good images of what we are describing in this video:

Carving Fun-damentals



Here is the medicine ball video, Bud

Transitions--The Medicine Ball



Both videos by Bob Barnes
post #162 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post


Good images of what we are describing in this video:
Carving Fun-damentals
Here is the medicine ball video, Bud
Transitions--The Medicine Ball
Both videos by Bob Barnes



Great video, but ideal carving conditions. The medicine ball one was a repeat of the carving video. I have seen it before and agree that it is an excellent analopgy

The condition that gives me the chatter is attempting to maintain social speeds on 35 + degree slopes with re-frozen winchcat groomed snow.

May be I am looking for the impossible, but I am coming up to Aspen early Feb so will keep on working on it if I can find some steep ice.   

post #163 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by uboom View Post


but I am coming up to Aspen early Feb so will keep on working on it if I can find some steep ice.   


I've been following this thread with quite a bit of interest as the concepts being discussed were first presented to me during last year's ESA, and have proved invaluable to my own growth as a skier. I've also been fortunate enough to have the chance to spend time on the hill with many of the insightful folks who have posted here, and have been holding my peace and reading along happily. One thing though uboom, that I do wish to point out, seeing as your from rather far away: most of the folks that I've skied with during my few visits to Aspen/Snowmass/Highlands, (where there is indeed plenty of steep terrain to be found,) tend to look for softer snow than the icy conditions that you refer to. Not to dissuade you, but I'd hope that in February most of NW Colorado is covered in powder and that ice will be hard to find. Trust that you'll manage to enjoy your visit in any case.biggrin.gif

 

post #164 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by uboom View Post

May be I am looking for the impossible, but I am coming up to Aspen early Feb so will keep on working on it if I can find some steep ice.   


I don't think you are looking for the impossible; not necessarily the easiest to achieve but certainly a worthy challenge/goal. I would be looking more in the touch/finesse realm vs more_power/more_edge in order to be successful.

Good luck!
post #165 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by uboom View Post


Great video, but ideal carving conditions. The medicine ball one was a repeat of the carving video. I have seen it before and agree that it is an excellent analopgy

The condition that gives me the chatter is attempting to maintain social speeds on 35 + degree slopes with re-frozen winchcat groomed snow.

May be I am looking for the impossible, but I am coming up to Aspen early Feb so will keep on working on it if I can find some steep ice.   



Good luck finding ice in Colorado. :)

 

Aside from the technique end of things (which is a very likely culprit), if you're on skis that aren't torsionally stiff enough to hold the forces you're putting on them, you could see this effect, too.  What seems to happen is the ski grips, starts to twist until the edge angle can no longer hold, slips, then catches again as it untwists.  This can repeat a bunch of times really quickly and be pretty annoying.  I find this only happens with an awesome tune, though.  A crappy tune just keeps slipping once the edge blows initially.

 

If you're trying to hold an edge on steep ice, you want a narrow ski with lots of metal in it.  Race skis are where it's at for this sort of thing; they're made for it, and do it really well.  If you're trying to maintain social speeds, what you want is a slalom ski.  The other categories won't come alive until you're well into the antisocial range.

post #166 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoisvert View Post



Good luck finding ice in Colorado. :)

 

Aside from the technique end of things (which is a very likely culprit), if you're on skis that aren't torsionally stiff enough to hold the forces you're putting on them, you could see this effect, too.  What seems to happen is the ski grips, starts to twist until the edge angle can no longer hold, slips, then catches again as it untwists.  This can repeat a bunch of times really quickly and be pretty annoying.  I find this only happens with an awesome tune, though.  A crappy tune just keeps slipping once the edge blows initially.

 

If you're trying to hold an edge on steep ice, you want a narrow ski with lots of metal in it.  Race skis are where it's at for this sort of thing; they're made for it, and do it really well.  If you're trying to maintain social speeds, what you want is a slalom ski.  The other categories won't come alive until you're well into the antisocial range.


This is my third time in Aspen, I don,t come for the ice but for the Highland bowl, Temerity and Steeplechase.
 

I think you got the guts of the problem as if I am not masters racing I use my recreational skis (Experiernce 83) with a race tune, and this is when I really notice the chatter, much more so than on my previous recreational ski (Rossi B2)  the E 83 is still a fine ski and is going to carve so great lines in Aspen

Thanks all for your help and suggestions, exchanges like this make us analyse our movements and notch up our skiig.  

 

post #167 of 169

Drove all the way from San Diego to Tahoe last Sunday, only to turn around and drive back to Mammoth on Monday Morning after checking the snow reports... 1" vs 12", tough choice. The wife and I were one of the first ones down Stump Alley when they opened it and I did several high speed laps practicing "Go" then moved away as it got crowded. Tried again at the end of the day, but it had been scraped down to ice in many places, not fun, that's why I started another thread about the full tune I'm getting now.

 

Spent the rest of the week in Heavenly with only 3 runs open (1 was the terrain park)... and realized it is hard to practice "Go" with a bunch of beginners in the way and out of control skiers and boarders flying down. They finally opened Comet and even though it is short, it is the perfect run to practice this on (even if crowded at times).

 

Spacecase

post #168 of 169
Thread Starter 

Spacecase,

 

Glad you are starting your season thinking about the intent to "GO" and using gravity to control your descent!  That is quite a ski tour for opening week!  

 

bud

post #169 of 169

Too bad the snow isn't cooperating... hopefully we'll get a good storm before race camp, but not during like the last two years (more like powder and crud camp).

 

Spacecase

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