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The impact that gender has on how you teach(or learn)? - Page 2

post #31 of 51

What's that saying, Don't write any checks your body can't cash? wink.gif

post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post



 



But no one said single dads have irrational fears, because men don't tend to think that way. THat's what is maternal.

 

Listen, I do have tongue planted in cheek ... just questioning some of these assumptions. I don't really feel like a jerk; I think mothers who overly restrict themselves and their children are jerks. ;-)  Plus, we have to define "irrational" here: as for being the linchpin, I have had three operations directly related to playing tennis, one from soccer, and zero from skiing. (I just jinxed myself.) So for me, I should fear tennis, I guess. But that would be weird, no one thinks tennis is a dangerous sport. No one is afraid of tennis. 

 

You're also rational enough to realize that being an athlete inherently involves risk. Some people blame the sport for their injuries and stop playing. I don't consider those people athletes - I mean, not real athletes (everyone, feel free to spray me here). Although you've had some surgeries, you haven't stopped playing tennis. It may change the way you approach some aspects of tennis, it may not. But you've been an athlete long enough to know that most (most) injuries are temporary and having the mental toughness to work through them and get back on the court/whatever is part of competing. It doesn't necessarily mean taking unnecessary risks, but it does mean overcoming irrational fears and ceasing to be a headcase. In a way, parenting or being the sole supporter of something is probably similar. People don't have to take unnecessary risks, but they do have to have the mental edge to keep competing (I am using the term "compete" loosely here; I guess I should say that people have to have the mental edge to keep pushing themselves to improve and approach their sport assertively/aggressively as opposed to defensively).

 

Of course, I type all this ^^^^ hoping that it is true for me in the coming months and year. Talk to me in 14 months and let's see what I am saying.

 

 

However, I also think that it brings it back to what TC was saying ... women tend to think of all these things as a whole, men don't. Just not sure if it has as much to do with being a parent or not.  Parenthood probably amplifies whatever is already there.

 

+1

 

I think this relates to what I was saying about having the mental edge.

 

post #33 of 51

Where does gender enter into it at all?

 

If you're a single Mom or Dad and you're on skis in a leson situation you've already accepted the inherent risks that goes along with skiing. Otherwise you'd sit in the lodge and read a book.

 

It's what's between the ears of the individual how they approach their ski day, reguardless if you are the teacher or the student.

 

There are days when I go skiing when my minds on work or something else. There's no zip to my turns, no swagger or enthusiasm in my line selection. I'll make a few runs and go home. No big deal. It happens to everyone.

 

If you approach a lesson based on prior experience due to what you consider gender, shame on you. You're cheating your client and you have a problem. Not them.

post #34 of 51
Being a mom and a professional in the medical field, AND having been inured skiing (3 days hospital), and having foot survey (plates and screws, not from skiing), I can honestly say I don't ski with the worry of not being able take care of my kids. Never crossed my mind. Guess not mom of the year, lol.. Instead I worry about their safety when they ski, and to alleviate, lessen those fears, I put my kids in ski camp when younger, and now i have them take private lessons. I can relax and enjoy my skiing, then. I don't take unnecessary risks when skiing. Like taking a black when I'm a blue slope skier (for now).

Yes, skiing has its risks, but I'm willing to take them, and my family. It's a wonderful sport that we love to do as a family.

I ski by watching and doing. Don't really care about the specifics on why. I use finesse, well try too, but my husband just forces/muscles his way. And he likes all the detailed mechanics on what he's supposed to be doing, before he even does it (yuck). Needless to say, we will never take a lesson together, smile.gif
Edited by mrsnitrobob - 10/31/11 at 12:36pm
post #35 of 51

There are two sides to this discussion. How do women learn and how they are percieved (preconcieved) by their instructor of whichever gender.

I see the preconception issue all the time skiing with my wife most recently catskiing. We walk into the breakfast meeting and she is the only woman and 18 guys and there is a palpable 'Oh no - there's a woman going with us' in the room. Eyes roll, exchanged glances, etc. By now my wife is used to this attitude so when we get in the cat doing introductions my wife says 'Yah I'm a woman but I don't ski like one' and at 5'5"/110 lbs she promptly whoops their asses every run.

Yes she may be one in a thousand compared to other women (part of the reason I married her) but beware of your preconceptions. They can lead to a place of dark humilitation especially for a delicate male ego. 

post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

There are two sides to this discussion. How do women learn and how they are percieved (preconcieved) by their instructor of whichever gender.

I see the preconception issue all the time skiing with my wife most recently catskiing. We walk into the breakfast meeting and she is the only woman and 18 guys and there is a palpable 'Oh no - there's a woman going with us' in the room. Eyes roll, exchanged glances, etc. By now my wife is used to this attitude so when we get in the cat doing introductions my wife says 'Yah I'm a woman but I don't ski like one' and at 5'5"/110 lbs she promptly whoops their asses every run.

Yes she may be one in a thousand compared to other women (part of the reason I married her) but beware of your preconceptions. They can lead to a place of dark humilitation especially for a delicate male ego. 



But those aren't instructors ... I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet that most instructors have skied with enough women who can kick their asses that such preconceived notions no longer exist.

 

And, by the way, I seem to remember a very ... accurate ... post by Sinecure that is no longer here? Where did it go?

post #37 of 51

Aren't all fears irrational? As in they are resistant to reason.

 

To me the nice thing about skiing is that its not a serious sport. Its just going out a playing in the snow. You don't need to improve technique or face your fears. The beginner skier puttering on a green run has just as much fun as the "real skier" doing "real skier things". The fear that most people have of falling down a mountain is IMO about as reasonable a fear as you can have. In fact I suspect that skiing would be pretty boring if you were not affaid of falling down the mountain. Its like a horror movie about accountants or dentists or something. wiht out the fear factor its BORING!!!

 

The problem people seem to run into is that people take it too seriously and get all worked up over something that should probably be no big deal. I mean if you are not having fun, then do something different.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSloan View Post

 

You're also rational enough to realize that being an athlete inherently involves risk. Some people blame the sport for their injuries and stop playing. I don't consider those people athletes - I mean, not real athletes (everyone, feel free to spray me here). Although you've had some surgeries, you haven't stopped playing tennis. It may change the way you approach some aspects of tennis, it may not. But you've been an athlete long enough to know that most (most) injuries are temporary and having the mental toughness to work through them and get back on the court/whatever is part of competing. It doesn't necessarily mean taking unnecessary risks, but it does mean overcoming irrational fears and ceasing to be a headcase. In a way, parenting or being the sole supporter of something is probably similar. People don't have to take unnecessary risks, but they do have to have the mental edge to keep competing (I am using the term "compete" loosely here; I guess I should say that people have to have the mental edge to keep pushing themselves to improve and approach their sport assertively/aggressively as opposed to defensively).

 

Of course, I type all this ^^^^ hoping that it is true for me in the coming months and year. Talk to me in 14 months and let's see what I am saying.

 

 

Do you think Muhammad Ali is no longer an athlete because he can barely function as a human being? To me being an athlete can't be taken away from you. Its not even something you can choose to give up. It is who you are and what you have done. There is nothing wrong with saying I am tired if this or I think its just not worth it or just getting bored and moving on to try something new. I don't think all athletes have to pursue a sport until they are physically unable to continue.

 


Edited by tromano - 10/31/11 at 8:48pm
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Aren't all fears irrational? As in they are resistant to reason.

 

Do you think Muhammad Ali is no longer an athlete because he can barely function as a human being? To me being an athlete can't be taken away from you. Its not even something you can choose to give up. It is who you are and what you have done. There is nothing wrong with saying I am tired if this or I think its just not worth it or just getting bored and moving on to try something new. I don't think all athletes have to pursue a sport until they are physically unable to continue.

 

To me the nice thing about skiing is that its not a serious sport. Its just going out a playing in the snow.

 

 

 

 


I don't think I made my point clearly. To me being able to admit that it is time to stop doesn't cause one to stop being an athlete. However, I think there is an athlete's mentality that allows for risk taking and pushing oneself to do better. That doesn't mean that retiring is out, but it does mean overcoming irrational fears and developing a certain level of mental toughness that allows one to endure. Muhammad Ali wouldn't have had a career if he couldn't do the above. Neither would any other professional athlete. Not that we have to operate on the same level, but having an (athletic) mental edge does allow us to pursue our passions and develop to the best of our ability.

 

For me, all sports are somewhat serious. I can't have a good time if I'm not pushing myself to do better or be better. If I'm not learning or improving, I have trouble engaging in something. But, that's just me . . .

 

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Aren't all fears irrational? As in they are resistant to reason.

 

 

 



Not at all.  Fear can be completely reasonable. Obviously, it is a continuum depending on who is afraid, among other things. But there are many, many instances in which fear is a rational state.

post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsnitrobob View Post
... Needless to say, we will never take a lesson together, smile.gif



This is usually a very good idea.  With the social aspect to skiing and riding and most people having limited time on the slopes, I understand why they do take lessons together, but it is the rare couple that are at roughly similar levels, etc. etc.

 

Intructors can even face awkwardness in dealing with couples issues in unexpected ways.  The stereotype of the guy muscling it and being slightly more of a perceived risk-taker is often true. Perceived is sometimes the key word, though.  Maybe one time in 50 you get a couple that would self-report as the husband being an "expert who skis aggressively" (aggressive being a funny word, does he have stare-downs with the snow???) and the wife/s.o. being an "intermediate who likes to have fun," where it turns out the wife skis or rides beautifully and the husband is a hack with a big ego.  There are lots of little terrain pockets on some mountains where you can safely offer students choice a) or choice b)...you can unintentionally end up showing the husband up if it's a couples situation in this case. 

 

Whether instructors have an ethical or vocational need to keep in mind hubbies' fragile ego if the wife will enjoy, say, skiing a gully while you descend the groomer to the side is a...hmmm.

 

post #41 of 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

Not at all.  Fear can be completely reasonable. Obviously, it is a continuum depending on who is afraid, among other things. But there are many, many instances in which fear is a rational state.


Reasonable yes, rational I think not. I think responses like fear start in the gut. And then only get rational justification added on later if at all. You don't need a reason to be afraid. You can be afraid of something that you clearly do not understand rationally. And rational arguments proving that fear is unreasonable never seem to actually remove the fear from the person who is afraid. I think its inherently irrational. Even things that you were afraid of that you "over came that fear", even then the fear never really goes away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #42 of 51

Fear can be both rational and reasonable, and also the opposite. Rational/reasonable fear : Staring into the business end of a gun. The opposite : Being afraid of the colour red.

Most people are afraid of snakes, it can be argued that's inherent in mans nature through evolution. We haven't lived long enough ( as a species with access to guns ) to show the same response to guns, yet.

Fear doesn't necessarily have to be bad, as it triggers a higher production of endorphin and adrenalin ( and other substances ) in our bodies.

post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Quote:


Reasonable yes, rational I think not. I think responses like fear start in the gut. And then only get rational justification added on later if at all. You don't need a reason to be afraid. You can be afraid of something that you clearly do not understand rationally. And rational arguments proving that fear is unreasonable never seem to actually remove the fear from the person who is afraid. I think its inherently irrational. Even things that you were afraid of that you "over came that fear", even then the fear never really goes away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh no, parsing reasonable and rational! Well, I'm not going to get all John Rawls here ... I'm using them as 97% synonyms. And it depends on the person, again: reason doesn't always remove fear, but it sometimes does. As I said earlier, it depends a lot on the characteristics of the individual who is afraid. I for one am someone who can look at statistics and stop being afraid of something. It may not always work that way, but it does often enough that I know it happens. I think everyone has probably had at least one experience where they "used to be afraid of" something, but then looked under the bed and realized there is no boogieman there after all. It doesn't always work out like that, as you point out, but it certainly doesn't "never" happen that way. 

post #44 of 51

 



On the instructor side again, more males seem prone to chasing certs as a way of puffing themselves up, as well, along with those who pursue them for practical reasons or for just plain curiosity or enjoying the cert process.  I've seen this with avy certs, climbing, etc. in addition to ski instructors.  To make a broad generalization, the average ability and motivation of male and female instructors/etc. are probably the same, but there's a broader range of things going on with individual male instructors.

 

Male instructors also seem to have much more faith in video.

 

 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredBroker View Post

... I have noticed male students paying much more attention and at least seaming to be more focused when being taught by a woman. ..



 

post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post



On the instructor side again, more males seem prone to chasing certs as a way of puffing themselves up, as well, along with those who pursue them for practical reasons or for just plain curiosity or enjoying the cert process.  I've seen this with avy certs, climbing, etc. in addition to ski instructors.  To make a broad generalization, the average ability and motivation of male and female instructors/etc. are probably the same, but there's a broader range of things going on with individual male instructors.

 

Male instructors also seem to have much more faith in video.

 

 

 



 




I chased certs because the average level 1 makes 12 bucks an hour, where as the average L 3 makes 23 bucks an hour. Let not forget that L3s that full day privates lesson tip much better than say the average kids ski school class.

 

the only way I could continue to teach skiing and do what I loved was to chase certs down its simple economics even with that said there is no way back east I could even come close to supporting a family on ski teaching and doing it out west means your are in the 1 percent of ski instructors at the highest paying areas out west.

post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

I chased certs because the average level 1 makes 12 bucks an hour, where as the average L 3 makes 23 bucks an hour. Let not forget that L3s that full day privates lesson tip much better than say the average kids ski school class.


That makes perfect sense especially from someone who plans on ski instruction begin a profession. icon14.gif

 

post #47 of 51

I read this thread title and was thinking the discussion would be about whether we learn better from a same gender instructor or opposite gender instructor.   I feel somewhat disappointedspit.gif

post #48 of 51

We can have that discussion too, if you want. Personally, I think it comes down to the individual teacher for the most part, and student secondarily. Basically, IMO a good teacher is a good teacher, regardless of the gender of their student. Most of the teachers I've seen who people say are better at teaching one sex vs. the other are just bad teachers, but there's some mitigating circumstance that allows them to be lumped into the "teach men/women better" category. For instance, we have an instructor at Alpine who makes totally inappropriate sexist jokes as well as teaching analogies, regardless of the audience. A lot of women don't respond well to that. And these days I think most men only put up with it because Beavis and Butthead taught them that it's OK. And we have one or two women who teach at such a slow pace w/ regard to advancing the terrain and challenges for their clients that only someone really timid, or insanely patient will put up with it. Based on general gender bias, I'd say more people would lump women into those categories (although the most vociferous complaints I've heard about those instructors came from women who wanted to be challenged).

 

As for students, I think some women feel they'll work better with a woman instructor and some men feel that way about men (see comments above by Castle Dave about men groaning when they had a woman in their class - who subsequently kicked their butts). Again, I think this is BS but is either based on, or perpetuated by experiences with one or the other of the characters I just described. It only takes one experience with Misogynist Monty or Monotonous Mary to put you off their sex altogether.

 

Personally, I've had great lessons with both men and women - and painfully bad ones as well. I have a pet list of instructors I'll recommend for my clients if I'm not available. And a very short list of those I'll tell them to steer clear of. But neither list is gender biased (Mary and Monty are on the second list, regardless of student).

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinecure View Post

Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but by and large, women (and girls) have different learning styles than men (and boys). Oh, and while we're on the subject of preference, I've found that in the few lessons I've had with openly gay men, about half seem to have a learning style more like the way we've generalized women and half like men. Not really a surprise there. And no, I don't ask people their preference at the beginning of a lesson, it just is either obvious or comes up in conversation since we live/ski near the bay area.

 

Keep in mind that most people are subject to confirmation bias so it's hard to accurately report without doing a real analysis. It'd be interesting to do a blind study to find out which traits can be generalized across genders and which can't. When it comes to traits in gay males, many gay men aren't particularly concerned about conforming to societal pressures and norms around masculinity. Which I wish extended to the straight male community too, because gender expectations put a lot of unnecessary pressure on everyone.

 

OTOH, a lot of gay men take this to the extreme and actively reject traditional masculine norms, which prevents them from enjoying athletics. The partner of one of my friends absolutely refuses to even try sports like skating, inline skating, skiing simply because "it's athletic". But I guess that's a whole other can of worms. 

post #50 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post



I don't understand "footnotes" in skiing. I don't think skiing is about "proofs" or documenting your research. Its about finding what works and whats fun.



Footnotes are about establishing /context/ within a larger picture.    "Where does this biomechanical cookie fit within my biomechanical Atkins/paleo/DASH diet".     

 

  Some of us get biomechanical diabetes when we just randomly reach into the cookie jar.

post #51 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

...It'd be interesting to do a blind study to find out which traits can be generalized across genders and which can't...



talk about a powder keg! :) 

 

For whatever reason,  some visual differences of perception between men and women and similar issues are non-controversial, maybe because people with college degrees don't pay much attention to visually centered outdoor sports.  For shooting clay targets with a shotgun, for instance, men and women on average look at different things, one isn't better than the other in results though.  I can't think of a similar, concrete, currently noin-political difference in perception for skiing and riding, though.

 

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