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Where Does A Skier Slow Down In Moguls - Page 2

post #31 of 79

This is such a good thread and I thank cvj for starting it even though he has been silent for some reason. I'd really like to hear his ideas and thoughts. What the really good information proves is the one big mistake intermediates and mogul wannabees make is trying to ski moguls defensively. The very first thought and fear of someone entering a bump run who isn't a good bumper is speed control and fear of falling and failing looking stupid among those already in there. And the fact is, it's the very reason they aren't good on other slopes also.

 

You've got to be on the attack and ski aggressively.

post #32 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

the one big mistake intermediates and mogul wannabees make is trying to ski moguls defensively.

 

You've got to be on the attack and ski aggressively.



icon14.gif

 

Attitude goes a long way in the bumps.  Got to have the skills to back it up, but no room for being timid.  You don't have time to waffle, and you have to keep reaching your hands forward and pressing shoulders over the boots or a little in front at ALL times.  Spot your line 2-3 turns ahead, think to yourself, "I'm going there", then make it happen while continually looking ahead 2-3 (0r 4) bumps.

 

A bit if a hijack.gif but excellent point Lars.  Someone please icon14.gif him for me, I am out.

post #33 of 79
Thread Starter 

I mostly slow down on the front side of the mogul with a slight sink or sit on the bump. With a hard edge set is another way I slow down when skiing moguls.

 

This sink down to feel the tail of the ski is a move that I have watched skiers make that will slow the skier down. Skiers who have this move have better speed control than those who do not do this and stay in one spot on the ski. It is about feeling the tip of the ski to  start the turn and sinking straight down over the back of the binding and not letting the skis go to far out ion front of the skier.

 

Slow down on the front side and speed up on the backside.

 

Sinking straight down over the rear binding with knees and ankles flexed forward will allow the skier to pause and have a chance to adjust line or turn shape.

 

DSC_1411.jpg


Edited by cvj - 10/29/11 at 7:45am
post #34 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

For what it's worth, I'll add that skis with "early rise" or reverse camber act very much like skis that are too soft in bumps. Yes, they are exceptionally easy to pivot, and they can make it easy to ski slowly in bumps. But since their tips are "pre-bent," they cannot absorb any of the energy of the bump impact like a ski with traditional camber and the right flex as it uses some of the impact force to bend the ski.
 

 

I would like to read more opinions about the Bushwacker and Bonafide -- which I understand have some early rise and nice even flex -- in the bumps, especially for someone trying to get better in moguls and wishing to control speed elegantly.

 

post #35 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff2010 View Post

 

I would like to read more opinions about the Bushwacker and Bonafide -- which I understand have some early rise and nice even flex -- in the bumps, especially for someone trying to get better in moguls and wishing to control speed elegantly.

 



You might have to wait till mid season for that jeff.

 

Even though there are mogul specific skis out there. your results are still going to come down to doing the right things at the right time. That said, some of the new reverse camber skis are unproven. But, I skied with alot of guys in the bumps last year who were on reverse camber skis, S7's and Icelantics as well as a few others that ripped it up in powder bumps. Ice bumps here in the East? That's another subject. Most of the really good guys around here are still skiing 1980's leftovers.

 

Still, it's the skier, not the ski.

 

post #36 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

I mostly slow down on the front side of the mogul with a slight sink or sit on the bump. With a hard edge set is another way I slow down when skiing moguls.

 

This sink down to feel the tail of the ski is a move that I have watched skiers make that will slow the skier down. Skiers who have this move have better speed control than those who do not do this and stay in one spot on the ski. It is about feeling the tip of the ski to  start the turn and sinking straight down over the back of the binding and not letting the skis go to far out ion front of the skier.

 

Slow down on the front side and speed up on the backside.

 

Sinking straight down over the rear binding with knees and ankles flexed forward will allow the skier to pause and have a chance to adjust line or turn shape.

 

DSC_1411.jpg



Geez Joe, you still look so smooth. You don't look much different than you did 20 years ago. Cudoos for staying in shape and in touch with bump skiing.

 

post #37 of 79


Hey! Bushwacker and I agree on something else; it must be true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



eh I find REALLY stiff skis to much in the bumps personally.  My 8.7 for instance are realy the limit I would want for bump skiing. My Favorite bump skis off all time are still my 179cm PEs my bushwackers are a close second both of them I wouldnt call stiff.

For example, I find my old Super-G skis(208 Kästle) a real stiff ride in the bumps, my 190 Volant Machete Gs are better suited, and my 188 Volkl P50s better still (a toss up between these and my 165 Fischer WC SCs, but best would be a Rossi Bandit that I demoed).  My mogul skiing sucks much worse when I'm on the Super Gs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

Quote:

 

Lars:

 

I think we agree that if your skis are not in contact with the snow you cannot control your speed or direction (other than maybe by flapping your arms), so maximizing contact in the bumps is key, but I disagree with your bold state above.  My experience is that when a stiff ski runs into a bump tip first it will be pushed up quicker and with more force than one with a softer forefront section, hence it is harder to keep the ski tips on the snow and your weight out of the back seat.  Likewise, a ski with a stiff tail will accelerate quicker if your weight moves back. Stiff skis are extremely unforgiving in the bumps because they keep bouncing you off the snow and increasing your speed unless you are right on the center all the time, which requires more physical and mental energy than I want to expend 100% of the time I am in the bumps.

 

I have had some long soft skis (i.e 208 cm Volant G-max and 192 cm Watea 101s) that allowed me to rear back and carve a turn with just the tails if I missed doing in on the front of the ski, in effect giving me two chances at every turn in the bumps.  You cannot get anymore forgiving than that.  A softer ski will more easily and naturally follow the contours of the bumps, but obviously there is a point where too soft will not work.  MF


Like Goldie Locks and the three bears, you need a ski that's just right.  The 192 Watea's might be "forgiving" for a good skier or a heavy skier (if by forgiving you mean can carve a turn on the tail), but I'm pretty sure the 150 lb novice-intermediate will find that the 192 Watea (at least the 2011 version) will eat his lunch when the terrain gets challenging. 

 

You don't put the same shocks on a Caprice that you put on a Chevette.

 

post #38 of 79
Thread Starter 

Early rise, other wise known as  morning wood, or reverse camber skis are not for mogul skiing. Ever skied a bent ski in the moguls? That's all these skis are bent. Kneissl came out with a reverse camber ski in 1976 but it was for beginners so they could feel the skis in the turn with the skis in reverse camber.

 

A big problem with mogul specific skis is they are to soft, don't have enough rebound and they do not absorb much shock when hitting moguls head on. They do not help the skier much but the skier can throw them where ever they want to.

 

  Mogul skis should have a lot of rebound and be forgiving enough when hitting moguls they do not talk back to the skier by pushing the skier to the back seat. The skis should ride right over the mogul with the skier feeling the skis load up as they hit the front side of the mogul.

 

Any feed back on sinking at the end of the turn to slow down?


Edited by cvj - 10/30/11 at 7:15am
post #39 of 79

Ya cvj, great tip. I think it's one of those instinctive moves one does without thinking but necessary especially for the type of turns used in the SVMM, more so than zipperline bumping.

 

That said, I wouldn't have thought of it. Can you explain it more and maybe post a few pics of it's use. The pic you have up shows your tails off the snow and might be out of sequence with your sinking as it doesn't look like you are finishing the turn, looks like you are starting one.

 

I'm also glad to hear more from you here. There is no doubt, you're the best mogul skier posting in these forums.

post #40 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Ya cvj, great tip. I think it's one of those instinctive moves one does without thinking but necessary especially for the type of turns used in the SVMM, more so than zipperline bumping.

 

That said, I wouldn't have thought of it. Can you explain it more and maybe post a few pics of it's use. The pic you have up shows your tails off the snow and might be out of sequence with your sinking as it doesn't look like you are finishing the turn, looks like you are starting one.

 

I'm also glad to hear more from you here. There is no doubt, you're the best mogul skier posting in these forums.


I'm going to risk saying something here among you experts.  The way I explain this move is to ask this:

Imagine you are jumping on a trampoline or a mattress, and getting great rebound from each jump.  On your next touch-down you want to stop dead still.  

 

What do you do?  You'd be surprised how many people can mimic a sudden absorption move.  You "suck up" the rebound with your legs.  You'll stop dead.

You can do the same thing on a bump to come to a dead stop or just to pause.  

 

Cvj, is that what you're talking about?

 

post #41 of 79

or, is it like free falling in an elevator that's cable has snapped. just before it hits the bottom, you jump up to cusion the sudden stop.

 

just kidding,

 

post #42 of 79


Pause yes, dead stop while skiing bumps, I don't think so.

 

Isn't this just a simple down unweighting move applied to the up side of a bump instead of on flat terrain where it creates the "Virtual Bump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post


I'm going to risk saying something here among you experts.  The way I explain this move is to ask this:

Imagine you are jumping on a trampoline or a mattress, and getting great rebound from each jump.  On your next touch-down you want to stop dead still.  

 

What do you do?  You'd be surprised how many people can mimic a sudden absorption move.  You "suck up" the rebound with your legs.  You'll stop dead.

You can do the same thing on a bump to come to a dead stop or just to pause.  

 

Cvj, is that what you're talking about?

 



 

post #43 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

Early rise, other wise known as  morning wood, or reverse camber skis are not for mogul skiing. Ever skied a bent ski in the moguls? That's all these skis are bent. Kneissl came out with a reverse camber ski in 1976 but it was for beginners so they could feel the skis in the turn with the skis in reverse camber.

 

A big problem with mogul specific skis is they are to soft, don't have enough rebound and they do not absorb much shock when hitting moguls head on. They do not help the skier much but the skier can throw them where ever they want to.

 

  Mogul skis should have a lot of rebound and be forgiving enough when hitting moguls they do not talk back to the skier by pushing the skier to the back seat. The skis should ride right over the mogul with the skier feeling the skis load up as they hit the front side of the mogul.

 

Any feed back on sinking at the end of the turn to slow down?

 

 

Whats your saying is next time I am out skiing woods on my reverse camber boards I should avoid all moguls because my skis arent made for it?

 

post #44 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

 

Whats your saying is next time I am out skiing woods on my reverse camber boards I should avoid all moguls because my skis arent made for it?

 


As I read it, he's just saying that if you had some camber in your skis, your skis could do a little more shock absorbing for you as the tips got deflected under load to the decambered shape, not that you wouldn't enjoy skiing what you brung.  You may find the bennifit of your reverse camber boards in deep tight trees worth the sacrifice.  Where you draw the line would likely be a personal choice and depend on how big hard and steep the bumps were, how fast you were skiing and how tight the trees were.

 

post #45 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

 

Whats your saying is next time I am out skiing woods on my reverse camber boards I should avoid all moguls because my skis arent made for it?

 


Ski on what you want but don't try to say that these skis give a mogul skier an advantage they are a disadvantage.

 

The sink is a down unweight. The more the skier sinks at the end of the turn staying over the back of the binding the more pause the skier gets. Try it with out ski boots on you will have to flex knees and ankles forward just to keep from falling down. When skiers but ski boots on they tend to not keep the knees and ankles flexed resulting in sitting back and depending on the boots to keep them from falling.

 

Shane stays a little taller.

 

DSC_1571.jpg

 

It is a very subtle move. Skier feels the back of the boot for a split second then uses the back of the boot as a lever and pushes off the back of the boot, with the pole flick to help get back to the front of the ski for the new turn.

 

Trevor compresses more and slightly back further but ready to stand up.

DSC_1261.jpg

 

 

DSC_1218.jpg

 

All 3 skiers are mostly in the same position with pole cocked forward and getting ready to stand back up and get forward for the new turn. Skier plants the pole at the same time as he releases the ski edges from the previous turn.

post #46 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post


Ski on what you want but don't try to say that these skis give a mogul skier an advantage they are a disadvantage.

 

The sink is a down unweight. The more the skier sinks at the end of the turn staying over the back of the binding the more pause the skier gets. Try it with out ski boots on you will have to flex knees and ankles forward just to keep from falling down. When skiers but ski boots on they tend to not keep the knees and ankles flexed resulting in sitting back and depending on the boots to keep them from falling.

 

Shane stays a little taller.

 

DSC_1571.jpg

 

It is a very subtle move. Skier feels the back of the boot for a split second then uses the back of the boot as a lever and pushes off the back of the boot, with the pole flick to help get back to the front of the ski for the new turn.

 

Trevor compresses more and slightly back further but ready to stand up.

DSC_1261.jpg

 

 

DSC_1218.jpg

 

All 3 skiers are mostly in the same position with pole cocked forward and getting ready to stand back up and get forward for the new turn. Skier plants the pole at the same time as he releases the ski edges from the previous turn.




CVJ why do you not try ultra cambered skis like skis with tons of camber. I mean if any bit of rocker is bad, I bet lots of camber like more than normal skis is good! Like think Xc skating skis camber. I bet those would work great!

post #47 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


CVJ why do you not try ultra cambered skis like skis with tons of camber. I mean if any bit of rocker is bad, I bet lots of camber like more than normal skis is good! Like think Xc skating skis camber. I bet those would work great!


Red herring, Bush, and you know it. Firm bumps are more fun with some conventional camber (it least for me), but too much, of course, doesn't work out so well.

 

As for big rockered skis in the bumps - well, they're plenty easy, especially for doing pivot slips straight down the fall line if I want, but I find that rockers work best IN the snow, as opposed to ON it. Something a bit narrower, with some camber, is more fun in the bumps, for me, anyway.

 

Yes, I have skied rockered skis in bumps.

 

And yes, I have skied old fashioned skinny skis with metal edges and lots of camber in the bumps. On leather boots with 3-pin bindings, even. It wasn't pretty. No, they weren't skate skis.

 

As for where to slow down in the bumps, it depends. It depends on shape, pitch and intent. Uphill side? Yes. Downhill side? Yes. Tactics and line selection? Yes. Pressure control? Yes. Friction induced by allowing (not forcing) smearing? Yes. Carve a little "fish hook" before turning downhill? Yes.

 

Does slowing down have to be limited to a particular part of the bump? On some bumps, yes. In general, no.
 

 

post #48 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

Early rise, other wise known as  morning wood, or reverse camber skis are not for mogul skiing. Ever skied a bent ski in the moguls? That's all these skis are bent. Kneissl came out with a reverse camber ski in 1976 but it was for beginners so they could feel the skis in the turn with the skis in reverse camber.

 

A big problem with mogul specific skis is they are to soft, don't have enough rebound and they do not absorb much shock when hitting moguls head on. They do not help the skier much but the skier can throw them where ever they want to.

 

  Mogul skis should have a lot of rebound and be forgiving enough when hitting moguls they do not talk back to the skier by pushing the skier to the back seat. The skis should ride right over the mogul with the skier feeling the skis load up as they hit the front side of the mogul.

 

Any feed back on sinking at the end of the turn to slow down?


CVJ,

 

So specifically, what are good mogul skis-as in name some models.  About what widths are we looking at?  

 

post #49 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post


CVJ,

 

So specifically, what are good mogul skis-as in name some models.  About what widths are we looking at?  

 


Okay for me a good GS ski works best. A GS ski is more forgiving and has lots of rebound. At the most tip 105-66-90. Much wider and the skier has to wait for the ski to make the turn.

 

 bushwacker  ski how or on what ever maybe a 2X4 at the lumber yard would be a good choice for trees and bumps. Or maybe my old water skis. They have a lot of rocker and as Shane M. showed us you can ski the big lines with these.

 

post #50 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post


Okay for me a good GS ski works best. A GS ski is more forgiving and has lots of rebound. At the most tip 105-66-90. Much wider and the skier has to wait for the ski to make the turn.

 

 bushwacker  ski how or on what ever maybe a 2X4 at the lumber yard would be a good choice for trees and bumps. Or maybe my old water skis. They have a lot of rocker and as Shane M. showed us you can ski the big lines with these.

 



so your actually saying a GS skis is actually going to be easier to ski than a modern all mountain ski with small amounts of rocker? I have GS skis and they are freaking handful in the bumps, not to mention I would be pretty damn worried about bending them due to the amount of metal in them

 

are you kidding me, really?  what specific ski do you ski bumps on?

post #51 of 79

I have to agree with Bushy here.

 

GS ski and bumps, no way! Way to stiff and not quick enough edge to edge.

 

And yes bending them would be a huge concern.

A GS ski is more forgiving????????????confused.gif More forgiving then what, a steel beam

post #52 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

I have to agree with Bushy here.

 

GS ski and bumps, no way! Way to stiff and not quick enough edge to edge.

 

And yes bending them would be a huge concern.

A GS ski is more forgiving????????????confused.gif More forgiving then what, a steel beam



yeah and when Atomicman agrees with me something is truly wack.

post #53 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

Any feed back on sinking at the end of the turn to slow down?


I was scolded on my level 3 course for constantly absorbing momentum by flexing(/crumpling) through the transition in bumps. It's a wonderful way to reduce your speed, recenter for control, and lose any possibility of performance in turns.  redface.gif I say that as someone who will need another season to shake the habit. But it's still an option if you're in over your head, or just learning to ski bumps.

post #54 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ 


 But it's still an option if you're in over your head, or just learning to ski bumps.



Yeah, if there's one thing I've noticed about cvj's bump skiing it's how over his head he is and his steep learning curve. Funny bunch here!

 

post #55 of 79
For what it's worth, one of the most acclaimed and popular competition moguls skis around is the Hart F17. The standard model, a stock version of which carried Bryon Wilson to his bronze medal in the last Olympics, is built in the exact same mold as a competition GS ski. The construction is somewhat different, since the titanal in a GS ski easily gets bent in moguls, so it is eliminated. The F17 is a bit softer than a GS race ski, but it still has some muscle. And you would probably ski it a bit shorter than a race GS ski--maybe 10-15 cm.

Because it has a standard GS shape, the classic F17 is actually a pretty good all-round ski. The F17 World Cup is its "big brother," intended as a pure competition mogul ski. It has less sidecut, making the tips narrower (which helps keep them from interfering with each other in the bumps), but making it less versatile as a general-purpose ski.

Both skis have tips stiff enough to help absorb some of the shock when they hit the bump, as we've discussed. And both have tails stiff enough to help a skier recover when out of balance to the rear--as sometimes happens when landing an aerial, for example.

And on that note, contrary to another common myth, stiff tail skis do not throw you into the back seat. Think about it--when you push up on the tail of the stiff ski, it pushes you forward, not back. Of course, if you are already off-balance in the back seat, that push forward may make it quite obvious. But if the tail was too soft, it would not help you recover--would just bend and fold up when you tried to push yourself forward into balance.

And yes, of course, a good skier can ski pretty much anything pretty much anywhere, but it is the force it takes to bend a ski into reverse camber--instead of just pounding on the skier--that does the trick here. It is not the reverse camber itself, so skis that are already "pre-bent"--early rise, reverse camber, whatever--cannot absorb the shock as well.

The key--stiff skis, soft skis, stiff boots, soft boots, camber, reverse camber, whatever--is to fight for balance fore and aft. And that is no easy task in moguls. Consider the challenge, with both the speed and the angle (up and down) of the skis constantly, erratically, and often violently changing. It's literally like trying to balance on a bucking bronco. To do it, your feet must move vigorously but precisely forward and back beneath your body which, combined with the up and down movements of your feet, brings us back to that backpedal motion....


Best regards,
Bob
post #56 of 79

There is a difference between flexing and crumpling.  My Austrian supervisor calls crumpling "collapsing at the waist".  It refers to excessive bending/breaking at the waist due to a lack of core strength where flexing implies a more even distribution of movement through all of the joints.  Flexing in an appropriate manner maintains balance, manages pressure, and leads to increased performance in turns.   
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


I was scolded on my level 3 course for constantly absorbing momentum by flexing(/crumpling) through the transition in bumps. It's a wonderful way to reduce your speed, recenter for control, and lose any possibility of performance in turns.  redface.gif I say that as someone who will need another season to shake the habit. But it's still an option if you're in over your head, or just learning to ski bumps.



 

post #57 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post



Yeah, if there's one thing I've noticed about cvj's bump skiing it's how over his head he is and his steep learning curve. Funny bunch here!

 



I'd have to say that cvj, being a 4 time world mogul champion just might know something about what kind of ski works best in moguls.

 

post #58 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


I was scolded on my level 3 course for constantly absorbing momentum by flexing(/crumpling) through the transition in bumps. It's a wonderful way to reduce your speed, recenter for control, and lose any possibility of performance in turns.  redface.gif I say that as someone who will need another season to shake the habit. But it's still an option if you're in over your head, or just learning to ski bumps.



I used and still use large amount of flexion in my turns. Tell your examiners they are wrong about absorbing(if your doing it right)

 

The best mogul skiers have some of the largest range of motion. Another member on epic has called me gumby because of it.

post #59 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

For what it's worth, one of the most acclaimed and popular competition moguls skis around is the Hart F17. The standard model, a stock version of which carried Bryon Wilson to his bronze medal in the last Olympics, is built in the exact same mold as a competition GS ski. The construction is somewhat different, since the titanal in a GS ski easily gets bent in moguls, so it is eliminated. The F17 is a bit softer than a GS race ski, but it still has some muscle. And you would probably ski it a bit shorter than a race GS ski--maybe 10-15 cm.
Because it has a standard GS shape, the classic F17 is actually a pretty good all-round ski. The F17 World Cup is its "big brother," intended as a pure competition mogul ski. It has less sidecut, making the tips narrower (which helps keep them from interfering with each other in the bumps), but making it less versatile as a general-purpose ski.
Both skis have tips stiff enough to help absorb some of the shock when they hit the bump, as we've discussed. And both have tails stiff enough to help a skier recover when out of balance to the rear--as sometimes happens when landing an aerial, for example.
And on that note, contrary to another common myth, stiff tail skis do not throw you into the back seat. Think about it--when you push up on the tail of the stiff ski, it pushes you forward, not back. Of course, if you are already off-balance in the back seat, that push forward may make it quite obvious. But if the tail was too soft, it would not help you recover--would just bend and fold up when you tried to push yourself forward into balance.
And yes, of course, a good skier can ski pretty much anything pretty much anywhere, but it is the force it takes to bend a ski into reverse camber--instead of just pounding on the skier--that does the trick here. It is not the reverse camber itself, so skis that are already "pre-bent"--early rise, reverse camber, whatever--cannot absorb the shock as well.
The key--stiff skis, soft skis, stiff boots, soft boots, camber, reverse camber, whatever--is to fight for balance fore and aft. And that is no easy task in moguls. Consider the challenge, with both the speed and the angle (up and down) of the skis constantly, erratically, and often violently changing. It's literally like trying to balance on a bucking bronco. To do it, your feet must move vigorously but precisely forward and back beneath your body which, combined with the up and down movements of your feet, brings us back to that backpedal motion....
Best regards,
Bob



Great post BB.

 

We actually agree on more than previously thought. You just have a nack of saying it better.

 

post #60 of 79
Thread Starter 

Barns is right on. Except for backpedal don't need to do it.  Wacker I have skied GS skis for over 30 years in moguls. Nordica Doberman GS 183cm Or I have a pair of  Hart Javelin GS 180cm. Ski in between a racer and an instructor is the ultimate goal don't you know.

 

A gs ski will do what ever the skier wants it to do and absorb a lot of shock. A soft ski will not. Again is is about how fast the ski comes across the fall line. [Rebound}  Make QCT ski moguls race gs cruse or do any turn the skier has the skill set to.

 

As a matter of fact any one can make a pair of skis with out metal it is easy to make a wood core with a fiberglass rap. There are so many small companies out there doing it but no one but the big boys can make a real ski with wood core fiberglass rap and metal top and bottom sheet.

 

Looking for the ultimate not a band aid or some inferior tech just to get by in some sticky situation.

 

The sink is straight down so if the examiner says you are crunched you are sinking to far forward. Skier has to much bend at the waist. Do it with out ski boots on you will see where you need to be when you have your boots on.

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