Where Does A Skier Slow Down In Moguls - Page 2

Originally Posted by Lars 

the one big mistake intermediates and mogul wannabees make is trying to ski moguls defensively.

 

You've got to be on the attack and ski aggressively.

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes 

For what it's worth, I'll add that skis with "early rise" or reverse camber act very much like skis that are too soft in bumps. Yes, they are exceptionally easy to pivot, and they can make it easy to ski slowly in bumps. But since their tips are "pre-bent," they cannot absorb any of the energy of the bump impact like a ski with traditional camber and the right flex as it uses some of the impact force to bend the ski.
 

Originally Posted by jeff2010 

 

I would like to read more opinions about the Bushwacker and Bonafide -- which I understand have some early rise and nice even flex -- in the bumps, especially for someone trying to get better in moguls and wishing to control speed elegantly.

 

Originally Posted by cvj 

I mostly slow down on the front side of the mogul with a slight sink or sit on the bump. With a hard edge set is another way I slow down when skiing moguls.

 

This sink down to feel the tail of the ski is a move that I have watched skiers make that will slow the skier down. Skiers who have this move have better speed control than those who do not do this and stay in one spot on the ski. It is about feeling the tip of the ski to  start the turn and sinking straight down over the back of the binding and not letting the skis go to far out ion front of the skier.

 

Slow down on the front side and speed up on the backside.

 

Sinking straight down over the rear binding with knees and ankles flexed forward will allow the skier to pause and have a chance to adjust line or turn shape.

 

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

eh I find REALLY stiff skis to much in the bumps personally.  My 8.7 for instance are realy the limit I would want for bump skiing. My Favorite bump skis off all time are still my 179cm PEs my bushwackers are a close second both of them I wouldnt call stiff.

Originally Posted by mudfoot 

Quote:

 

Lars:

 

I think we agree that if your skis are not in contact with the snow you cannot control your speed or direction (other than maybe by flapping your arms), so maximizing contact in the bumps is key, but I disagree with your bold state above.  My experience is that when a stiff ski runs into a bump tip first it will be pushed up quicker and with more force than one with a softer forefront section, hence it is harder to keep the ski tips on the snow and your weight out of the back seat.  Likewise, a ski with a stiff tail will accelerate quicker if your weight moves back. Stiff skis are extremely unforgiving in the bumps because they keep bouncing you off the snow and increasing your speed unless you are right on the center all the time, which requires more physical and mental energy than I want to expend 100% of the time I am in the bumps.

 

I have had some long soft skis (i.e 208 cm Volant G-max and 192 cm Watea 101s) that allowed me to rear back and carve a turn with just the tails if I missed doing in on the front of the ski, in effect giving me two chances at every turn in the bumps.  You cannot get anymore forgiving than that.  A softer ski will more easily and naturally follow the contours of the bumps, but obviously there is a point where too soft will not work.  MF

Originally Posted by Lars 

Ya cvj, great tip. I think it's one of those instinctive moves one does without thinking but necessary especially for the type of turns used in the SVMM, more so than zipperline bumping.

 

That said, I wouldn't have thought of it. Can you explain it more and maybe post a few pics of it's use. The pic you have up shows your tails off the snow and might be out of sequence with your sinking as it doesn't look like you are finishing the turn, looks like you are starting one.

 

I'm also glad to hear more from you here. There is no doubt, you're the best mogul skier posting in these forums.

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet 

I'm going to risk saying something here among you experts.  The way I explain this move is to ask this:

Imagine you are jumping on a trampoline or a mattress, and getting great rebound from each jump.  On your next touch-down you want to stop dead still.  

 

What do you do?  You'd be surprised how many people can mimic a sudden absorption move.  You "suck up" the rebound with your legs.  You'll stop dead.

You can do the same thing on a bump to come to a dead stop or just to pause.  

 

Cvj, is that what you're talking about?

 

Originally Posted by cvj 

Early rise, other wise known as  morning wood, or reverse camber skis are not for mogul skiing. Ever skied a bent ski in the moguls? That's all these skis are bent. Kneissl came out with a reverse camber ski in 1976 but it was for beginners so they could feel the skis in the turn with the skis in reverse camber.

 

A big problem with mogul specific skis is they are to soft, don't have enough rebound and they do not absorb much shock when hitting moguls head on. They do not help the skier much but the skier can throw them where ever they want to.

 

  Mogul skis should have a lot of rebound and be forgiving enough when hitting moguls they do not talk back to the skier by pushing the skier to the back seat. The skis should ride right over the mogul with the skier feeling the skis load up as they hit the front side of the mogul.

 

Any feed back on sinking at the end of the turn to slow down?

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

 

Whats your saying is next time I am out skiing woods on my reverse camber boards I should avoid all moguls because my skis arent made for it?

 

Originally Posted by cvj 

Ski on what you want but don't try to say that these skis give a mogul skier an advantage they are a disadvantage.

 

The sink is a down unweight. The more the skier sinks at the end of the turn staying over the back of the binding the more pause the skier gets. Try it with out ski boots on you will have to flex knees and ankles forward just to keep from falling down. When skiers but ski boots on they tend to not keep the knees and ankles flexed resulting in sitting back and depending on the boots to keep them from falling.

 

Shane stays a little taller.

 

 

It is a very subtle move. Skier feels the back of the boot for a split second then uses the back of the boot as a lever and pushes off the back of the boot, with the pole flick to help get back to the front of the ski for the new turn.

 

Trevor compresses more and slightly back further but ready to stand up.

 

 

 

All 3 skiers are mostly in the same position with pole cocked forward and getting ready to stand back up and get forward for the new turn. Skier plants the pole at the same time as he releases the ski edges from the previous turn.

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

CVJ why do you not try ultra cambered skis like skis with tons of camber. I mean if any bit of rocker is bad, I bet lots of camber like more than normal skis is good! Like think Xc skating skis camber. I bet those would work great!

Originally Posted by cvj 

Early rise, other wise known as  morning wood, or reverse camber skis are not for mogul skiing. Ever skied a bent ski in the moguls? That's all these skis are bent. Kneissl came out with a reverse camber ski in 1976 but it was for beginners so they could feel the skis in the turn with the skis in reverse camber.

 

A big problem with mogul specific skis is they are to soft, don't have enough rebound and they do not absorb much shock when hitting moguls head on. They do not help the skier much but the skier can throw them where ever they want to.

 

  Mogul skis should have a lot of rebound and be forgiving enough when hitting moguls they do not talk back to the skier by pushing the skier to the back seat. The skis should ride right over the mogul with the skier feeling the skis load up as they hit the front side of the mogul.

 

Any feed back on sinking at the end of the turn to slow down?

Originally Posted by cvj 

Okay for me a good GS ski works best. A GS ski is more forgiving and has lots of rebound. At the most tip 105-66-90. Much wider and the skier has to wait for the ski to make the turn.

 

 bushwacker  ski how or on what ever maybe a 2X4 at the lumber yard would be a good choice for trees and bumps. Or maybe my old water skis. They have a lot of rocker and as Shane M. showed us you can ski the big lines with these.

 

Originally Posted by Atomicman 

I have to agree with Bushy here.

 

GS ski and bumps, no way! Way to stiff and not quick enough edge to edge.

 

And yes bending them would be a huge concern.

A GS ski is more forgiving???????????? More forgiving then what, a steel beam

Originally Posted by cvj 

Any feed back on sinking at the end of the turn to slow down?

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ 

 But it's still an option if you're in over your head, or just learning to ski bumps.

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ 

I was scolded on my level 3 course for constantly absorbing momentum by flexing(/crumpling) through the transition in bumps. It's a wonderful way to reduce your speed, recenter for control, and lose any possibility of performance in turns.   I say that as someone who will need another season to shake the habit. But it's still an option if you're in over your head, or just learning to ski bumps.

Originally Posted by HardDaysNight 

Yeah, if there's one thing I've noticed about cvj's bump skiing it's how over his head he is and his steep learning curve. Funny bunch here!

 

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ 

I was scolded on my level 3 course for constantly absorbing momentum by flexing(/crumpling) through the transition in bumps. It's a wonderful way to reduce your speed, recenter for control, and lose any possibility of performance in turns.   I say that as someone who will need another season to shake the habit. But it's still an option if you're in over your head, or just learning to ski bumps.

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes 

For what it's worth, one of the most acclaimed and popular competition moguls skis around is the Hart F17. The standard model, a stock version of which carried Bryon Wilson to his bronze medal in the last Olympics, is built in the exact same mold as a competition GS ski. The construction is somewhat different, since the titanal in a GS ski easily gets bent in moguls, so it is eliminated. The F17 is a bit softer than a GS race ski, but it still has some muscle. And you would probably ski it a bit shorter than a race GS ski--maybe 10-15 cm.
Because it has a standard GS shape, the classic F17 is actually a pretty good all-round ski. The F17 World Cup is its "big brother," intended as a pure competition mogul ski. It has less sidecut, making the tips narrower (which helps keep them from interfering with each other in the bumps), but making it less versatile as a general-purpose ski.
Both skis have tips stiff enough to help absorb some of the shock when they hit the bump, as we've discussed. And both have tails stiff enough to help a skier recover when out of balance to the rear--as sometimes happens when landing an aerial, for example.
And on that note, contrary to another common myth, stiff tail skis do not throw you into the back seat. Think about it--when you push up on the tail of the stiff ski, it pushes you forward, not back. Of course, if you are already off-balance in the back seat, that push forward may make it quite obvious. But if the tail was too soft, it would not help you recover--would just bend and fold up when you tried to push yourself forward into balance.
And yes, of course, a good skier can ski pretty much anything pretty much anywhere, but it is the force it takes to bend a ski into reverse camber--instead of just pounding on the skier--that does the trick here. It is not the reverse camber itself, so skis that are already "pre-bent"--early rise, reverse camber, whatever--cannot absorb the shock as well.
The key--stiff skis, soft skis, stiff boots, soft boots, camber, reverse camber, whatever--is to fight for balance fore and aft. And that is no easy task in moguls. Consider the challenge, with both the speed and the angle (up and down) of the skis constantly, erratically, and often violently changing. It's literally like trying to balance on a bucking bronco. To do it, your feet must move vigorously but precisely forward and back beneath your body which, combined with the up and down movements of your feet, brings us back to that backpedal motion....
Best regards,
Bob